Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

484,445 Views | 9120 Replies | Last: 2 hrs ago by YouBet
PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Side note to the reader: notice everything he says is a year old or more, reminds me of how longhorns always live in the past.

Russia is currently, as of today, only able to gain 2 miles of land and a handfull of tiny towns in one tiny area in 6 months of fighting.



Pure competence.


I'm not arguing for Russian competency. This started because I pointed out that the aid showing up is not going to suddenly make the Uke army competent.

Uke army is objectively not good at its job, because Russia is (slowly) pushing them back on their own turf
Teslag
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Who said Ukraine was going to push Russia back to 2014 borders?

Do you think Russia is satisifed with what they have? If they want more why don't they have it? Why did they lose it?
Teslag
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And they Uke army is good at their job because they have repelled an invasion that Russian official state media said would be over in days.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag said:

Who said Ukraine was going to push Russia back to 2014 borders?

Do you think Russia is satisifed with what they have? If they want more why don't they have it? Why did they lose it?


I pointed out that the Ukrainian army is incompetent and you're trying to talk about The Russian army. Classic distraction and derail from my original point.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag said:

And they Uke army is good at their job because they have repelled an invasion that Russian official state media said would be over in days.


The invasion is ongoing. Repelled in your mind only. Though to be fair, the exchange started with me pointing out you're delusional.
nortex97
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Probably only around level 1.5.
Teslag
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nortex97 said:

Probably only around level 1.5.

Rememeber folks, this poster is above snarky replies and only here for serious discussion.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Yeah man, didn't you hear? Russia's "only hope" was to defeat Ukraine before a few 20 year old airplanes with Rookie pilots show up.
Teslag
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Do you think our $60 billion aid package will only be for F-16's?

A simple yes or no will do.
Teslag
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Will Russia need more than 200 T-90's per month to advance more than 2 miles in 6 months? Again, a simple yes or now will do.


What would they need to defeat Ukraine in "weeks"?
PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag said:

Do you think our $60 billion aid package will only be for F-16's?

A simple yes or no will do.


Another distraction from the original point: Uke incompetence.

Good try though buddy.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag said:

Will Russia need more than 200 T-90's per month to advance more than 2 miles in 6 months? Again, a simple yes or now will do.


What would they need to defeat Ukraine in "weeks"?


I point out Uke incompetence and he can't argue that so he deflects off to some side show. Total joke
Teslag
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I did argue it and was right. An incompetent army would have folded in the initial invasion and there'd be no Ukraine now.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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Sweden is now a card carrying member of NATO.
nortex97
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Yes, and the main impact of this shift will be in their maritime/aviation procurement to standardize more to nato specs. This will take decades, but will probably make navigation and coordination in the Baltic and north sea's easier with their forces. They have a huge coastline, but not a lot of people.

I don't see this as driving much else though, as they definitely don't have a surplus of artillery/weapons to provide nor will it shift their forces posture relative to Russia. Ultimately, Scandinavian sentiments popularly track roughly with German ones about this stuff/proxy war;



rgag12
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Teslag said:

And they Uke army is good at their job because they have repelled an invasion that Russian official state media said would be over in days.


They repelled it? What about all the areas in red, (save Crimea and Donetsk)?



Also, Ukraines problem isn't that they aren't able to repel the Russians. Ukraine's problem is that they have no ability to go on the offensive and retake what Russia took.
Teslag
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"They repelled it"? Weird, it's almost like Russia was on Kiev's doorstep and then pushed hundreds of miles away...

PlaneCrashGuy
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Uh guys, if Uke repelled the invasion like Teslag thinks, then they obviously don't need our help anymore.

Another incredible face plant/self own.
Teslag
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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

Sweden is now a card carrying member of NATO.

Yep, and no one takes Russia's little tantrums seriously anymore. Just two years ago...

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-warns-baltic-nuclear-deployment-if-nato-admits-sweden-finland-2022-04-14/


Quote:

Medvedev said he hoped Finland and Sweden would see sense. If not, he said, they would have to live with nuclear weapons and hypersonic missiles close to home.

When asked how Washington views the potential addition of Sweden and Finland to NATO in light of Russia's warning, the U.S. State Department said there was no change in Washington's position and repeated that "NATO's open door is an open door."

Putin and his clowns are always all talk. Imagine being punked by senile Biden and a former comedian.
Teslag
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

Uh guys, if Uke repelled the invasion like Teslag thinks, then they obviously don't need our help anymore.

Another incredible face plant/self own.

As I've said before. Ukraine can kill a lot of Russians. But with our help they can kill a **** load of Russians.


And dead Russian soldiers make the world a better place.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Uh guys, if Uke repelled the invasion like Teslag thinks, then they obviously don't need our help anymore.

Another incredible face plant/self own.

As I've said before. Ukraine can kill a lot of Russians. But with our help they can kill a **** load of Russians.


And dead Russian soldiers make the world a better place.


You really have no idea how stupid you sound do you?
FJB24
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What a pathetic pile of incoherent, immature hate and rage you are.

Hundreds or more of Ukrainians and Russians alike are dead today alone, and you are here cheering it all on.
Teslag
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Sotero-Judges said:

What a pathetic pile of incoherent, immature hate and rage you are.

Hundreds or more of Ukrainians and Russians alike are dead today alone, and you are here cheering it all on.


And Putin and Putin alone is responsible for every single death. He could end it all with one single order.

Until then I'm not going to shed a single tear for enemy soldiers being killed. They deserve it.
PlaneCrashGuy
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It was irresponsible to send cluster munitions to the Ukes. I seem to recall they even lowered the standards to allow weapons with more duds through.
Teslag
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Uh, Russia was using cluster munitions well before we sent them to Ukraine. And if they didn't decide to launch a completely unprovoked invasion they wouldn't have had to deal with them.
Ag with kids
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Teslag said:

Uh, Russia was using cluster munitions well before we sent them to Ukraine. And if they didn't decide to launch a completely unprovoked invasion they wouldn't have had to deal with them.
Ah...would be nice to send them some of the early MLRS M26 rockets. Loaded with 644 little packets of joy in each rocket. The M270 MLRS could send 3864 bomblets to the location in 30 sec, so I assume the HIMARS could do the same
nortex97
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Sigh…update today on the million mobilized…but only 300K at the frontline soap opera;

Quote:

Yes, the article seems to imply that 700,000 Ukrainian soldiers have simply vanished or are missingat least that's what the pro-Russian commentariat is extracting from it.

And it's true, recently Ukrainian officials have continued to claim that there are upwards of 700k to 1 million Ukrainians in the armed forces, but have also specified that about 250-300k or less are 'on the actual frontlines'. This is precisely the number I gave long ago, for those who may recall, by way of my own calculations of different combat zones cross-checked with the Pentagon leaks from early 2023.

But allow me to say that I don't think it necessarily means 700k are missing or dead as most are implying, though it could be. You see, in any army the ratio of bayonet strength to noncombat forces is generally in that 3:1 or more rangeU.S. army for instance being even more. That means it would technically make sense for Ukraine to have 200-300k frontline capable combat troops, with the remaining 700k+ in the rear as part of logistics units or reserves undergoing further training, as well as border guards, etc.

However, the WaPo article clearly seems to suggest that no one even amongst Ukrainian officials knows where those 700k are, which would imply something more sinister.

After all, suppose they had those 700k in the rearwouldn't those be much easier to train into combat troops and send to the front, since the already have military experience? Why, then, the mad scramble and desperation for fresh meat off the streets? Recall, Ukraine previously admitted requiring 20-30k monthly mobilizations just to break evenpresumably with losses.

So: was the WaPo slipup a look behind the curtain to Ukraine's true losses? I'll let you decide, but it certainly seems to suggest something very fishy going on with their numbers such that even top mainstream outlets like WaPo are now openly questioning Zelensky's official figures. In the best case scenario, it may be lies meant to conceal the true severity of Ukraine's current troop and mobilization problem; and in the worst case, it may be a revealing clue as to Ukraine's total losses.
It's pretty tough to take them seriously though when they lie so brazenly as to claim to have had only 31K KIA so far.

I guess the ol' diaper user last night had to focus first and foremost on his proxy war with Russia.



On the ship loss (long discussion in the update);
Quote:

Ultimately, while it's true the naval losses have no real bearing on the Ukrainian conflict itself, because it in no way helps Ukraine in the fight on the ground, it does put some wind in the sails of the propaganda effort, as the recent Black Sea successes have become the only holdfast for the pro-UA side to cling to as putative 'evidence' of its winning posture:






The cognitive dissonance of needing Kiev in Nato so it will receive inviolable Article 5 protection, yet also assuming Putin will somehow lose his mind and invade Poland next really is quite a mental feat.

Russian speculation Nuland resigned in disgust at not being chosen for a post/enough focus on her hatred of Russia;

Quote:

The main task that Nuland has been working on in recent years, he said, was the "strategic defeat" of Russia and helping Ukraine "to stand on its own feet democratically, economically and militarily." But despite all her experience and influence, it seems Blinken didn't try to dissuade her from resigning.
The news triggered an avalanche of reactions from leading Russian politicians, diplomats, experts and the media.

According to Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova, Nuland was forced to resign because of the failure of Biden's course on Russia.

"This is a failure of the policy associated with Nuland, because she was the central figure who pursued a Russophobic policy towards our country, the whole story was tied to Nuland,"Zakharova said. According to her, the outgoing US deputy secretary of state was "not just a high-ranking representative of the State Department, but a key figure in US interagency cooperation."

"She was a coordinator of anti-Russian sentiment and anti-Russian policy by the United States, especially in the context of Ukraine. I can't say that she was an ideologue. There are people out there who hate us more, but she really was a coordinator, she is associated with that policy. And that is how they said goodbye to her," the Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said.

Meanwhile, a theory has emerged in Washington that Nuland's resignation was the result of a power struggle in which she lost the race for the post of first deputy foreign policy chief.

Some pundits see a battle of narratives, with behind-the-scenes jockeying of personalities. All part of a dispute over the long-term shape of US foreign policy and its priorities.

It should be recalled that after Wendy Sherman resigned last summer as US deputy secretary of state, her duties were carried out for six months by Nuland. At the end of last year, however, the White House made the unexpected decision to nominate Campbell, another veteran of American diplomacy, for the second post in the diplomatic service. Campbell, who does not have as big a name in the diplomatic world as Nuland, has made his career not in the Euro-Atlantic but in the Indo-Pacific region.

"Ms. Nuland was considered the natural candidate to replace Ms. Sherman on a permanent basis. But Mr Blinken nominated Kurt Campbell, the former National Security Council representative for Asia," the New York Times commented on the reshuffle. James Carden, a former US State Department official, told RIA Novosti: "I was actually surprised that she lasted as long as she did. I realised her time was up when Kurt Campbell got the second-ranked job at the department." In a Senate vote on 6 February, his nomination received broad bipartisan support: 92 senators voted in favour, with five voting against.
From a comment at simplicius' update this is a sad story that sounds about believable regarding the pathetic state of Ukrainians sent to the front;

Quote:

This is really bothering me. If you look at the 2010 election, Yanukovych won with 49% of the popular vote vs. 45.5% for Tymoshenko, and yet according to the Ukrainian census, only 17.5% of Ukrainians identify as ethnic Russians, which presumably includes minors who can't vote.

What that tells me is that roughly 50% of the adult population wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko's brand of Ukrainian nationalism, a number that no doubt increased after 2014. So in effect, at least half the guys fighting for Ukraine have no dog in this fight and would probably give it up if there was a safe way to do so. I know Russia drops leaflets and has a frequency you can dial up to surrender, but surely there must be some other way to save these guys? This is just ****ing awful. I have a friend who recently got back from serving 6 months at the front and he told me the command structure is almost non-existent, as is the supply of ammunition. He actually bought a small bus so they could move around as his mobile unit had no assigned vehicle. In the 6 months he was there half his guys were killed, and all they did was sit in bunkers getting fired on. The whole time he was there he never even saw the enemy. This is just outrageous. These guys aren't Nazis. The Nazis are mostly dead by now, or hiding out in the rear, too cowardly to go to the front. Please, is there no way these guys can be saved? This is breaking my heart.
Zelensky needs to be toppled, imho. Here's another long take on Russia's posture/outlook.
PlaneCrashGuy
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It is curious why defenses would be built around Kiev.
Teslag
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Where does it say defenses are being built around Kiev?
J. Walter Weatherman
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nortex97 said:



Sigh…update today on the million mobilized…but only 300K at the frontline soap opera;

Quote:

Yes, the article seems to imply that 700,000 Ukrainian soldiers have simply vanished or are missingat least that's what the pro-Russian commentariat is extracting from it.

And it's true, recently Ukrainian officials have continued to claim that there are upwards of 700k to 1 million Ukrainians in the armed forces, but have also specified that about 250-300k or less are 'on the actual frontlines'. This is precisely the number I gave long ago, for those who may recall, by way of my own calculations of different combat zones cross-checked with the Pentagon leaks from early 2023.

But allow me to say that I don't think it necessarily means 700k are missing or dead as most are implying, though it could be. You see, in any army the ratio of bayonet strength to noncombat forces is generally in that 3:1 or more rangeU.S. army for instance being even more. That means it would technically make sense for Ukraine to have 200-300k frontline capable combat troops, with the remaining 700k+ in the rear as part of logistics units or reserves undergoing further training, as well as border guards, etc.

However, the WaPo article clearly seems to suggest that no one even amongst Ukrainian officials knows where those 700k are, which would imply something more sinister.

After all, suppose they had those 700k in the rearwouldn't those be much easier to train into combat troops and send to the front, since the already have military experience? Why, then, the mad scramble and desperation for fresh meat off the streets? Recall, Ukraine previously admitted requiring 20-30k monthly mobilizations just to break evenpresumably with losses.

So: was the WaPo slipup a look behind the curtain to Ukraine's true losses? I'll let you decide, but it certainly seems to suggest something very fishy going on with their numbers such that even top mainstream outlets like WaPo are now openly questioning Zelensky's official figures. In the best case scenario, it may be lies meant to conceal the true severity of Ukraine's current troop and mobilization problem; and in the worst case, it may be a revealing clue as to Ukraine's total losses.
It's pretty tough to take them seriously though when they lie so brazenly as to claim to have had only 31K KIA so far.

I guess the ol' diaper user last night had to focus first and foremost on his proxy war with Russia.



On the ship loss (long discussion in the update);
Quote:

Ultimately, while it's true the naval losses have no real bearing on the Ukrainian conflict itself, because it in no way helps Ukraine in the fight on the ground, it does put some wind in the sails of the propaganda effort, as the recent Black Sea successes have become the only holdfast for the pro-UA side to cling to as putative 'evidence' of its winning posture:






The cognitive dissonance of needing Kiev in Nato so it will receive inviolable Article 5 protection, yet also assuming Putin will somehow lose his mind and invade Poland next really is quite a mental feat.

Russian speculation Nuland resigned in disgust at not being chosen for a post/enough focus on her hatred of Russia;

Quote:

The main task that Nuland has been working on in recent years, he said, was the "strategic defeat" of Russia and helping Ukraine "to stand on its own feet democratically, economically and militarily." But despite all her experience and influence, it seems Blinken didn't try to dissuade her from resigning.
The news triggered an avalanche of reactions from leading Russian politicians, diplomats, experts and the media.

According to Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova, Nuland was forced to resign because of the failure of Biden's course on Russia.

"This is a failure of the policy associated with Nuland, because she was the central figure who pursued a Russophobic policy towards our country, the whole story was tied to Nuland,"Zakharova said. According to her, the outgoing US deputy secretary of state was "not just a high-ranking representative of the State Department, but a key figure in US interagency cooperation."

"She was a coordinator of anti-Russian sentiment and anti-Russian policy by the United States, especially in the context of Ukraine. I can't say that she was an ideologue. There are people out there who hate us more, but she really was a coordinator, she is associated with that policy. And that is how they said goodbye to her," the Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said.

Meanwhile, a theory has emerged in Washington that Nuland's resignation was the result of a power struggle in which she lost the race for the post of first deputy foreign policy chief.

Some pundits see a battle of narratives, with behind-the-scenes jockeying of personalities. All part of a dispute over the long-term shape of US foreign policy and its priorities.

It should be recalled that after Wendy Sherman resigned last summer as US deputy secretary of state, her duties were carried out for six months by Nuland. At the end of last year, however, the White House made the unexpected decision to nominate Campbell, another veteran of American diplomacy, for the second post in the diplomatic service. Campbell, who does not have as big a name in the diplomatic world as Nuland, has made his career not in the Euro-Atlantic but in the Indo-Pacific region.

"Ms. Nuland was considered the natural candidate to replace Ms. Sherman on a permanent basis. But Mr Blinken nominated Kurt Campbell, the former National Security Council representative for Asia," the New York Times commented on the reshuffle. James Carden, a former US State Department official, told RIA Novosti: "I was actually surprised that she lasted as long as she did. I realised her time was up when Kurt Campbell got the second-ranked job at the department." In a Senate vote on 6 February, his nomination received broad bipartisan support: 92 senators voted in favour, with five voting against.
From a comment at simplicius' update this is a sad story that sounds about believable regarding the pathetic state of Ukrainians sent to the front;

Quote:

This is really bothering me. If you look at the 2010 election, Yanukovych won with 49% of the popular vote vs. 45.5% for Tymoshenko, and yet according to the Ukrainian census, only 17.5% of Ukrainians identify as ethnic Russians, which presumably includes minors who can't vote.

What that tells me is that roughly 50% of the adult population wanted nothing to do with Tymoshenko's brand of Ukrainian nationalism, a number that no doubt increased after 2014. So in effect, at least half the guys fighting for Ukraine have no dog in this fight and would probably give it up if there was a safe way to do so. I know Russia drops leaflets and has a frequency you can dial up to surrender, but surely there must be some other way to save these guys? This is just ****ing awful. I have a friend who recently got back from serving 6 months at the front and he told me the command structure is almost non-existent, as is the supply of ammunition. He actually bought a small bus so they could move around as his mobile unit had no assigned vehicle. In the 6 months he was there half his guys were killed, and all they did was sit in bunkers getting fired on. The whole time he was there he never even saw the enemy. This is just outrageous. These guys aren't Nazis. The Nazis are mostly dead by now, or hiding out in the rear, too cowardly to go to the front. Please, is there no way these guys can be saved? This is breaking my heart.
Zelensky needs to be toppled, imho. Here's another long take on Russia's posture/outlook.


Yes there is a very easy way those guys can be saved. Putin can end the invasion today and send his troops, the ones who are actually killing Ukrainians, home. Very strange this "commenter" never blames Russia given that his friend was allegedly fighting them. Also the quote about the election is somewhat hilarious given that Zelenskyy won in a landslide in 2019.
PlaneCrashGuy
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You don't have to quote an entire post just to reiterate you don't like it. HTH.
nortex97
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Quote:

Also the quote about the election is somewhat hilarious given that Zelenskyy won in a landslide in 2019.
There's a whole long thread full of simple hatred for Russians/Putin. I don't have an emotional/real need to demonstrate my personal views toward him in every post/page here.

You probably don't realize Zelensky the beautiful campaigned in 2019 on bringing peace, and anti-corruption initiatives. Even before the full war with Russia in 2022, his approval rating was down to around Biden levels, and he is clearly an utter failure on both planks:

Quote:

This latest episode of hope-to-disappointment with Zelenskiy comes at a difficult time for Ukraine. Mired in a war with Russia, the Ukrainian president cannot bring peace to Donbas without Vladimir Putin's help, but the Kremlin appears intent on continuing the conflict.

Reform and the struggle against corruption, however, are fights that Zelenskiy can control. If he turns away from them, he risks losing support in the West, particularly in Europe, where calls for a return to business as usual with Moscow are growing in EU member states. Zelenskiy should worry that, after 30 years of failure to rein in corruption and the oligarchs, Europeans may well begin to wonder whether Ukraine's political elite is incapable of change. Few things would damage Ukraine more than if its friends in the West begin to question whether the country is worth the troubleand simply give up.

If Zelenskiy does not worry about his country's future, perhaps he should worry about his political prospects. Just thirteen months after assuming office, his approval rating plummeted to 38 percent in June, a far cry from the 71 percent he enjoyed last September. His apparent reversal on corruption and long-needed economic reforms undoubtedly contributed to that.
More:
Quote:

Ending The War

When he was sworn in as president in May 2019, Zelenskiy also inherited the role of supreme commander in chief of Ukraine's armed forces and a grinding war against Russia-backed separatists who hold parts of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in what is known as the Donbas. More than 13,000 people have been killed since fighting began in April 2014.

One of Zelensky's two main promises was to bring the war to an end, a goal that polls have shown Ukrainians want to see accomplished more than anything.

"He showed a real willingness to end the war. That's a good thing," Yermolenko says. "The world saw it, too -- …
Then he *****-footed around about the fake Democrat lies and Trump's impeachment over the Biden corruption call/investigation, then pushed to go to nato asap, delivering a war that has deracinated the Ukrainian population and led to an exodus of millions of Ukrainians as refugees to flee conscription, as well as the death and maiming of hundreds of thousands, serving at Nuland's command. So yes, I do believe he is in reality HIGHLY unpopular within the adult Ukrainian population.
Teslag
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

You don't have to quote an entire post just to reiterate you don't like it. HTH.


Oh you're here. Where does it say defenses are being built around Kiev?
PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

You don't have to quote an entire post just to reiterate you don't like it. HTH.


Oh you're here. Where does it say defenses are being built around Kiev?


What is "it"? What said that?
Teslag
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You made the claim. You tell me. Nothing in Nortex' post said that.
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