Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

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PlaneCrashGuy
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8:27p, 2/7/24
AG
Woah. That was close
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Ag with kids
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In reply to nortex97 • 8:50p, 2/7/24
AG
nortex97 said:
Ag with kids said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:

And a slower analysis on the airburst


Smiley face emoticon showing Ukrainians being killed.

But remember this thread is above "war porn" and "war cheer leaders" and totally isn't supporting Russia.


Clearly PCG is very concerned about the lives being lost and not actively rooting for Russia in their continued unprovoked invasion.


"Unprovoked" only plainly displays your ignorance.


Must have missed where Ukraine invaded Russia first and justified the war Putin started. Can you point me to something there? Or are your posts only limited to smiley face videos of Ukrainians dying trying to defend their country from an invasion?


We're 170 pages in. I'm not rehashing this for the 100th time because you weren't paying attention. Hopefully you will watch the interview when it is released and actually learn something


So, no, there is nothing you can share showing Ukraine invaded Russia and provoked Putin's invasion. Carry on with your smiley face posts of Ukrainians dying trying to defend their country.


I can show you the provocation if you can tell me why Russia invaded. After your outbursts of late you've gotta prove you're a serious poster if we're going to get anywhere.


Russia, their bots on twitter, etc. are telling people a number of false reasons why they invaded (nazis, biolabs, "provocation" from a defensive alliance that would only be fighting Russia if they decided to invade a NATO country, Biden corruption, etc), including most of what is posted on this thread. Russia actually invaded because they wanted to take over Ukraine and thought it would be easy. You can try to over complicate it all you want in some bizarre effort to appear enlightened, but it's not really that complicated.

Since Ukraine never attacked Russia (unless there is evidence of that that you haven't shared yet), the only objective conclusion is that Russia's invasion was unprovoked. But that would involve our pro Russia contingent actually being objective.

And yes, we could only hope to be as "serious" as constantly posting smiley face videos of Ukrainians dying trying to defend their country from an invasion, which for some reason you won't address.


If you've already made up your mind, and you're still pretending to want to discuss, that's called trolling. I appreciate you taking your mask off.

The updates will continue.
Now...since he told you why Russia invaded, it's your turn. Show the provocation.

Unless you're not a serious poster who is just trolling on here.
I showed it above, today.

Are you willing to at least look at the wikipedia article that details everything from the 1920's (topically, "Ukrainization") to the shelling in Luhansk and Donetsk by Ukraine of Russian population centers?



This is an ugly civil war to a large degree, which many Americans don't grasp, tbf.
Quote:
On 3 March, a number of people started storming Donetsk Oblast administrative building, waving Russian flags and shouting Russia! and Berkut are heroes!. The police did not offer resistance. The Luhansk Regional Council voted to demand giving Russian language the status of second official language, stopping persecution of Berkut fighters, disarming Maidan self-defense units and banning a number far-right political organizations like Svoboda and UNA-UNSO. If the authorities failed to comply with the demands, the Oblast council reserved itself the right to ask for help from the brotherly people of the Russian Federation.

The pro-Russian protests in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine escalated into an armed separatist insurgency. This led the Ukrainian government to launch a military counter-offensive against the insurgents in April 2014. During this war Luhansk and Donetsk, cities with a large ethnic Russian population, have seen heavy shelling. According to the United Nations, 730,000 refugees from the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts have fled to Russia since the beginning of 2014. Approximately 14,200 people, including 3,404 civilians, have died from 2014-2022 because of the war.

Ruslan Stefanchuk, the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada, said that there is no "Russian ethnic minority" in Ukraine and that "if these people show aggression rather than respect towards Ukraine, then their rights should be correspondingly suppressed."
Basically, Russia has been funding a proxy war in Ukraine for years...that's the "civil war" part.

And when Ukraine fought back against that meddling in Ukraine, you call it UKRAINIAN provocation...

And when Ukraine wants to join NATO (not NATO trying to expand), THAT is called provocation...because they want to join a DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE that is geared towards PREVENTING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION...

And EVEN IF it was a "civil war" as you term it (which it really isn't), WHY THE **** is Russia invading Ukraine? It's not a RUSSIAN "civil war".

Look, Ukraine is no angel. They're corrupt and probably a bunch of *******s. But, that doesn't give Russia the right to invade their country.
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to Ag with kids • 10:32p, 2/7/24
AG
Ag with kids said:
nortex97 said:
Ag with kids said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:

And a slower analysis on the airburst


Smiley face emoticon showing Ukrainians being killed.

But remember this thread is above "war porn" and "war cheer leaders" and totally isn't supporting Russia.


Clearly PCG is very concerned about the lives being lost and not actively rooting for Russia in their continued unprovoked invasion.


"Unprovoked" only plainly displays your ignorance.


Must have missed where Ukraine invaded Russia first and justified the war Putin started. Can you point me to something there? Or are your posts only limited to smiley face videos of Ukrainians dying trying to defend their country from an invasion?


We're 170 pages in. I'm not rehashing this for the 100th time because you weren't paying attention. Hopefully you will watch the interview when it is released and actually learn something


So, no, there is nothing you can share showing Ukraine invaded Russia and provoked Putin's invasion. Carry on with your smiley face posts of Ukrainians dying trying to defend their country.


I can show you the provocation if you can tell me why Russia invaded. After your outbursts of late you've gotta prove you're a serious poster if we're going to get anywhere.


Russia, their bots on twitter, etc. are telling people a number of false reasons why they invaded (nazis, biolabs, "provocation" from a defensive alliance that would only be fighting Russia if they decided to invade a NATO country, Biden corruption, etc), including most of what is posted on this thread. Russia actually invaded because they wanted to take over Ukraine and thought it would be easy. You can try to over complicate it all you want in some bizarre effort to appear enlightened, but it's not really that complicated.

Since Ukraine never attacked Russia (unless there is evidence of that that you haven't shared yet), the only objective conclusion is that Russia's invasion was unprovoked. But that would involve our pro Russia contingent actually being objective.

And yes, we could only hope to be as "serious" as constantly posting smiley face videos of Ukrainians dying trying to defend their country from an invasion, which for some reason you won't address.


If you've already made up your mind, and you're still pretending to want to discuss, that's called trolling. I appreciate you taking your mask off.

The updates will continue.
Now...since he told you why Russia invaded, it's your turn. Show the provocation.

Unless you're not a serious poster who is just trolling on here.
I showed it above, today.

Are you willing to at least look at the wikipedia article that details everything from the 1920's (topically, "Ukrainization") to the shelling in Luhansk and Donetsk by Ukraine of Russian population centers?



This is an ugly civil war to a large degree, which many Americans don't grasp, tbf.
Quote:
On 3 March, a number of people started storming Donetsk Oblast administrative building, waving Russian flags and shouting Russia! and Berkut are heroes!. The police did not offer resistance. The Luhansk Regional Council voted to demand giving Russian language the status of second official language, stopping persecution of Berkut fighters, disarming Maidan self-defense units and banning a number far-right political organizations like Svoboda and UNA-UNSO. If the authorities failed to comply with the demands, the Oblast council reserved itself the right to ask for help from the brotherly people of the Russian Federation.

The pro-Russian protests in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine escalated into an armed separatist insurgency. This led the Ukrainian government to launch a military counter-offensive against the insurgents in April 2014. During this war Luhansk and Donetsk, cities with a large ethnic Russian population, have seen heavy shelling. According to the United Nations, 730,000 refugees from the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts have fled to Russia since the beginning of 2014. Approximately 14,200 people, including 3,404 civilians, have died from 2014-2022 because of the war.

Ruslan Stefanchuk, the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada, said that there is no "Russian ethnic minority" in Ukraine and that "if these people show aggression rather than respect towards Ukraine, then their rights should be correspondingly suppressed."
Basically, Russia has been funding a proxy war in Ukraine for years...that's the "civil war" part.

And when Ukraine fought back against that meddling in Ukraine, you call it UKRAINIAN provocation...

And when Ukraine wants to join NATO (not NATO trying to expand), THAT is called provocation...because they want to join a DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE that is geared towards PREVENTING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION...

And EVEN IF it was a "civil war" as you term it (which it really isn't). WHY THE **** is Russia invading Ukraine? It's not a RUSSIAN "civil war".

Look, Ukraine is no angel. They're corrupt and probably a bunch of *******s. But, that doesn't give Russia the right to invade their country.


Civil war - noun: a war between citizens of the same country

Oxford languages
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nortex97
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In reply to Ag with kids • 4:01a, 2/8/24
AG
The confederacy was only a country separately until it was subjugated back into the United States, after our civil war. It had been part of the US previously. Weird, right?

Anyway, all of your history is wrong and wholly neglects the tracking/significance of the UFA shelling russian populations within what was then Ukraine.

Updates:





Ya think, Rob? Manpower shortages?



Hard hitting journalism with a foreign leader;



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PlaneCrashGuy
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6:04a, 2/8/24
AG
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nortex97
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6:05a, 2/8/24
AG
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PlaneCrashGuy
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6:07a, 2/8/24
AG
The attacking military campaign continues. Do not let the size of the abandoned village distract you from the fact that Uke tried to hold the line, and couldn't. How attrited are they? Will US aid come? When? All questions worth asking.
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Teslag
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 6:58a, 2/8/24
AG
PlaneCrashGuy said:
The attacking military campaign continues. Do not let the size of the abandoned village distract you from the fact that Uke tried to hold the line, and couldn't. How attrited are they? Will US aid come? When? All questions worth asking.


Wait they are STILL trying to take that village? Simplicious assured us it was about to fall weeks ago
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to Teslag • 8:44a, 2/8/24
AG
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
The attacking military campaign continues. Do not let the size of the abandoned village distract you from the fact that Uke tried to hold the line, and couldn't. How attrited are they? Will US aid come? When? All questions worth asking.


Wait they are STILL trying to take that village? Simplicious assured us it was about to fall weeks ago
Can you show us, or is this just another drive by while Uke "gets its ass kicked?"
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nortex97
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8:51a, 2/8/24
AG
Zelensky vows to attack/claim/invade other parts of Russia;

Quote:
At the end of January, Ukrainian President Vladimir Zelensky signed a decree on "Russian Territories Historically Inhabited by Ukrainians," which includes measures aimed at "preserving the national identity of Ukrainians" in Russia.

"This is the restoration of the truth about the historical past for the sake of Ukraine's future," Zelensky said in a video address on his country's annual Day of Unity.

The published decree states that the Kiev government has been instructed to develop and submit an action plan to the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine concerning a number of historical Russian borderlands namely, Kuban Region and Starodubshchyna, as well as northern and eastern Slobozhanshchyna, which correspond to Russia's present-day Krasnodar, Belgorod, Bryansk, Voronezh, Kursk, and Rostov regions.

The government will also have to "debunk Russian myths about Ukraine" and "develop interaction between Ukrainians and the peoples enslaved by Russia."

"For centuries, Russia has systematically committed and continues to commit acts aimed at destroying [Ukrainian] national identity, oppressing Ukrainians, violating their rights and freedoms, including on lands which they had historically inhabited," Zelensky said.
[url=https://www.rt.com/russia/591709-american-type-school-shootings/][/url]
Despite its declarative tone, the decree caused fierce controversy in both Ukrainian and Russian media. Although the document is mainly informational (especially given the failure of last year's counteroffensive and the difficult situation at the front), it demonstrates that, for Ukraine's political elite, the military conflict isn't the only problem; there is also the issue of the two conflicting "visions" of the post-Soviet space and its political, cultural, and economic transformation. Russia's vision is multinational, conservative, and focused on sovereignty, while Ukraine's is mono-ethnic, Westernized, and focused on globalization.
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Teslag
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 9:01a, 2/8/24
AG
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
The attacking military campaign continues. Do not let the size of the abandoned village distract you from the fact that Uke tried to hold the line, and couldn't. How attrited are they? Will US aid come? When? All questions worth asking.


Wait they are STILL trying to take that village? Simplicious assured us it was about to fall weeks ago
Can you show us, or is this just another drive by while Uke "gets its ass kicked?"


Today I learned that the Ukrainian counter offensive this past summer kicked Russias ass
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to Teslag • 9:05a, 2/8/24
AG
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
The attacking military campaign continues. Do not let the size of the abandoned village distract you from the fact that Uke tried to hold the line, and couldn't. How attrited are they? Will US aid come? When? All questions worth asking.


Wait they are STILL trying to take that village? Simplicious assured us it was about to fall weeks ago
Can you show us, or is this just another drive by while Uke "gets its ass kicked?"


Today I learned that the Ukrainian counter offensive this past summer kicked Russias ass
So you can't pull receipts? Should we assume you're making stuff up again? Its not hard to link the Simplicus tweet you are referencing, unless it doesn't exist....
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to nortex97 • 9:55a, 2/8/24
AG
That's absurd. Do you think this is just Z putting this out to rile the Uke base?
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nortex97
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 10:09a, 2/8/24
AG
Difficult to divine what his goal is there. Unlike some I just try not to get too far over my skis speculating someone else's objectives as fact.

I do think it is likely related to the Ukrainian goal of a wider war. They seek to draw in nato and as soon as possible as combatants. If they can taunt/draw Russia into acts that aid in this they will. Part of the reason I hope no further broad aid bill providing longer range weapons to them goes thru.
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Teslag
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 10:15a, 2/8/24
AG
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
The attacking military campaign continues. Do not let the size of the abandoned village distract you from the fact that Uke tried to hold the line, and couldn't. How attrited are they? Will US aid come? When? All questions worth asking.


Wait they are STILL trying to take that village? Simplicious assured us it was about to fall weeks ago
Can you show us, or is this just another drive by while Uke "gets its ass kicked?"


Today I learned that the Ukrainian counter offensive this past summer kicked Russias ass
So you can't pull receipts? Should we assume you're making stuff up again? Its not hard to link the Simplicus tweet you are referencing, unless it doesn't exist....


And the deflection on cue….
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PlaneCrashGuy
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10:51a, 2/8/24
AG
Deployment or evacuation point? Either way sounds like a costly error, if true.
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PlaneCrashGuy
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12:46p, 2/8/24
AG
Not finding anyone from either side online who supports this decision .
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nortex97
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1:27p, 2/8/24
AG
Maybe Zelensky has decided to prove this is in fact a civil war?





I would laugh if I didn't pity the poor women/kids/old men/conscripts now in his command.

Reprehensible, just a basic merchant of death.
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nortex97
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4:57p, 2/8/24
AG




The offensive use of Nato in the interests of Democrats in the US politically started roughly here;





Forever war, comrades!
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nortex97
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In reply to nortex97 • 6:14p, 2/8/24
AG
nortex97 said:
Ag with kids said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
J. Walter Weatherman said:
Teslag said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:

And a slower analysis on the airburst


Smiley face emoticon showing Ukrainians being killed.

But remember this thread is above "war porn" and "war cheer leaders" and totally isn't supporting Russia.


Clearly PCG is very concerned about the lives being lost and not actively rooting for Russia in their continued unprovoked invasion.


"Unprovoked" only plainly displays your ignorance.


Must have missed where Ukraine invaded Russia first and justified the war Putin started. Can you point me to something there? Or are your posts only limited to smiley face videos of Ukrainians dying trying to defend their country from an invasion?


We're 170 pages in. I'm not rehashing this for the 100th time because you weren't paying attention. Hopefully you will watch the interview when it is released and actually learn something


So, no, there is nothing you can share showing Ukraine invaded Russia and provoked Putin's invasion. Carry on with your smiley face posts of Ukrainians dying trying to defend their country.


I can show you the provocation if you can tell me why Russia invaded. After your outbursts of late you've gotta prove you're a serious poster if we're going to get anywhere.


Russia, their bots on twitter, etc. are telling people a number of false reasons why they invaded (nazis, biolabs, "provocation" from a defensive alliance that would only be fighting Russia if they decided to invade a NATO country, Biden corruption, etc), including most of what is posted on this thread. Russia actually invaded because they wanted to take over Ukraine and thought it would be easy. You can try to over complicate it all you want in some bizarre effort to appear enlightened, but it's not really that complicated.

Since Ukraine never attacked Russia (unless there is evidence of that that you haven't shared yet), the only objective conclusion is that Russia's invasion was unprovoked. But that would involve our pro Russia contingent actually being objective.

And yes, we could only hope to be as "serious" as constantly posting smiley face videos of Ukrainians dying trying to defend their country from an invasion, which for some reason you won't address.


If you've already made up your mind, and you're still pretending to want to discuss, that's called trolling. I appreciate you taking your mask off.

The updates will continue.
Now...since he told you why Russia invaded, it's your turn. Show the provocation.

Unless you're not a serious poster who is just trolling on here.
I showed it above, today.

Are you willing to at least look at the wikipedia article that details everything from the 1920's (topically, "Ukrainization") to the shelling in Luhansk and Donetsk by Ukraine of Russian population centers?



This is an ugly civil war to a large degree, which many Americans don't grasp, tbf.
Quote:
On 3 March, a number of people started storming Donetsk Oblast administrative building, waving Russian flags and shouting Russia! and Berkut are heroes!. The police did not offer resistance. The Luhansk Regional Council voted to demand giving Russian language the status of second official language, stopping persecution of Berkut fighters, disarming Maidan self-defense units and banning a number far-right political organizations like Svoboda and UNA-UNSO. If the authorities failed to comply with the demands, the Oblast council reserved itself the right to ask for help from the brotherly people of the Russian Federation.

The pro-Russian protests in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine escalated into an armed separatist insurgency. This led the Ukrainian government to launch a military counter-offensive against the insurgents in April 2014. During this war Luhansk and Donetsk, cities with a large ethnic Russian population, have seen heavy shelling. According to the United Nations, 730,000 refugees from the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts have fled to Russia since the beginning of 2014. Approximately 14,200 people, including 3,404 civilians, have died from 2014-2022 because of the war.

Ruslan Stefanchuk, the Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada, said that there is no "Russian ethnic minority" in Ukraine and that "if these people show aggression rather than respect towards Ukraine, then their rights should be correspondingly suppressed."


Not an endorsement but I find it quite interesting that Putin referenced "Ukrainization" in his Tucker interview in the initial discourse (30 minutes). I come away frankly impressed that Tucker was unprepared for the historical discussion.

It does impress me that again many Americans think they 'get' historical matters just based on feelings and propaganda. To me, that is the whole point of this thread, that this is quite often not the case, and support for spending/wars in far away lands are often not just counterproductive to the people there, but to Americans ourselves.
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Mongolian Christmas
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6:18p, 2/8/24
Do all militaries follow the same type organization, with platoons and companies and such?
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nortex97
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In reply to Mongolian Christmas • 5:08a, 2/9/24
AG
Somewhat, though Russian doctrine/structure around NCO's/officers is very different.



I was pleased the historical detail echoed my thoughts relative to this civil war (proxy war) in Ukraine around the history; good take here;
Quote:
At the beginning of the interview, Carlson stated that during Putin's historical lessons, Tucker pointed out that at first he thought that Putin was indulging in a filibuster, but that on reflection, he realized Putin was instead explaining the long, complex history of Russia and its neighboring countries. That is a cogent assessment.
While Tucker Carlson followed his normal, relaxed conversational style, Vladimir Putin showed flashes of temper, at one point upbraiding Carlson for interrupting him; "I asked at the beginning of the interview if this was going to be a serious discussion or a show," implying that Carlson was making of the conversation a "show." By this, he presumably meant a collection of talking points, where Putin intended to deliver a long-winded discussion of Russian territorial history.
Putin also complained about the expansion of NATO into Eastern Europe; it is clearly a topic that he is not happy about. He points out that, during the Yeltsin era, Russian/American relations were very good, and he blamed the expansion of NATO into former Soviet-bloc nations like Poland (he emphasized Poland in particular) for souring American/Russian relations.
Tucker Carlson was not intimidated by the former KGB Colonel, and Putin clearly had come to the interview with his agenda firmly in mind and with points he intended to make about Ukraine, American/Russian relations, China, and a variety of other topics. He did sobluntly.




Not a real effective 'reset':



Sigh…



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PlaneCrashGuy
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9:11a, 2/9/24
AG
Here's one Uke trying (unsuccessfully) to maintain appearances


I have not watched it yet, but here's a snapshot of the reaction from either side.

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Ag with kids
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In reply to nortex97 • 9:52p, 2/9/24
AG
nortex97 said:
The confederacy was only a country separately until it was subjugated back into the United States, after our civil war. It had been part of the US previously. Weird, right?
Our confederacy didn't have Brits come in and infiltrate the South and start a separatist war aimed at getting the whole country back together with England. The entire US territory had been part of the English empire previously. Weird, right?

THAT is the analog of what happened in the eastern provinces of Ukraine
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nortex97
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In reply to Ag with kids • 4:47a, 2/10/24
AG

Quote:
The entire US territory had been part of the English empire previously. Weird, right?


Do we really need to go down that line again? No. We can argue about maps of the region all day, but it's irrelevant. They were linked over time in various ways. The people there today all know it.



I don't care what portion, if any, the Russians wind up leaving as 'independent' after this proxy war.

And as far as third party actors;







Tucker addresses the 'threat of an expansionist Russia' and discussion of a peace deal etc. there. Pretty good rapid-reaction to the interview.



Will see what new guy does order;





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PlaneCrashGuy
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7:19a, 2/10/24
AG
'It's just good business" as Russia is using starlink now
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PlaneCrashGuy
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1:47p, 2/10/24
AG
its interesting to ponder why media seems to be carrying a lot less water for Uke than they once were.
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nortex97
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5:18a, 2/11/24
AG
He's right, you know;





On NATO's eastward expansion over the past 35 years.

Special anniversary simplicius update.







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PlaneCrashGuy
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6:27a, 2/12/24
AG
30km train
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 6:58a, 2/12/24
AG
I think it is probably the total length of maybe 5 or 10 supply trains, not a single one. It would seem to present an attractive target if the UFA have any weapons in range, if true.

Kiev Independent report on Russia's major offensive;





Forever war, forever lies, forever 'Muh, Russia' fanboy update;





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PlaneCrashGuy
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3:53p, 2/12/24
AG
The religious fervor with which Uke supporters will promise we're almost there, we just need to 60 billion more is starting to remind me of covid and "just wait two weeks"

"As long as it takes" is an unserious position espoused by unserious people.

Meanwhile in reality:


"No ability to mount an attacking military campaign"
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nortex97
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4:55a, 2/13/24
AG










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Teslag
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5:34a, 2/13/24
AG
Just checking in to see if Russia is has finally taken that abandoned village?
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nortex97
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5:57a, 2/13/24
AG


Sad. Pointless human sacrifices from the UFA to hold what I am sure some would snark about as worthless.







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PlaneCrashGuy
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12:05p, 2/13/24
AG
Another domino falls on the aid. This mass casualty event will probably take a few days to verify of disprove. War sucks.
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