Ag with kids said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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And for the record I don't think Nortex is pro Russian. I think he's so blinded by hating a feeble old man like Biden that he will cast his lot behind a violent dictator that hates the west if it means there's a chance to blame Biden.

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I tend to agree...

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The disconnect here is that, yet again (sorry to repeat myself), Biden is (a) not the real leader in the White House, (b) Biden's family has been on the communist china/russian/ukrainian oligarch payroll for decades, and (c) Kiev is ruled by a violent totalitarian/dictator as well. The Biden proxy war in Ukraine has benefitted China, his primary paymasters.

Other than that, mostly sound logic. Just, devoid of substantive rebuttals toward any points made today.

I'll just ask one more time for posterity, will the EU meet their 'priority' goal of 155mm ammo 'aid' to Ukraine in the 12 months they provided? Are there any actual substantive complaints as to what I 'fair use' cited above?

---

Your disconnect is to think that Putin invading Ukraine has anything to do with Biden/China/EU/Obama/Anyone else and not solely with Putin wanting to absorb Ukraine back into Mother Russia.

Everything else is just either background noise or Putin's excuses...

And to answer the question, I don't know if they will, although I expect they'll pull their heads out after awhile and a) either get close to the amount by the due date or b) get the full amount but after the due date. Euros are lazy ****s so it could be either one. However, I DO know that the article you posted does not substantiate your point about not meeting 50%.

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"The full amount after the due date". This is pitiful from a tactical analysis standpoint.

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Well, you're the expert in pitiful tactical analysis standpoints...

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At least my predictions come true. You predicted Ukraine capturing Crimea. What a foolish thing to have said. I didn't say that. You should talk less and learn more if you want to be taken seriously. Thanks!

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Ag with kids said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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And for the record I don't think Nortex is pro Russian. I think he's so blinded by hating a feeble old man like Biden that he will cast his lot behind a violent dictator that hates the west if it means there's a chance to blame Biden.

---

I tend to agree...

---

The disconnect here is that, yet again (sorry to repeat myself), Biden is (a) not the real leader in the White House, (b) Biden's family has been on the communist china/russian/ukrainian oligarch payroll for decades, and (c) Kiev is ruled by a violent totalitarian/dictator as well. The Biden proxy war in Ukraine has benefitted China, his primary paymasters.

Other than that, mostly sound logic. Just, devoid of substantive rebuttals toward any points made today.

I'll just ask one more time for posterity, will the EU meet their 'priority' goal of 155mm ammo 'aid' to Ukraine in the 12 months they provided? Are there any actual substantive complaints as to what I 'fair use' cited above?

---

Your disconnect is to think that Putin invading Ukraine has anything to do with Biden/China/EU/Obama/Anyone else and not solely with Putin wanting to absorb Ukraine back into Mother Russia.

Everything else is just either background noise or Putin's excuses...

And to answer the question, I don't know if they will, although I expect they'll pull their heads out after awhile and a) either get close to the amount by the due date or b) get the full amount but after the due date. Euros are lazy ****s so it could be either one. However, I DO know that the article you posted does not substantiate your point about not meeting 50%.

---

"The full amount after the due date". This is pitiful from a tactical analysis standpoint.

---

Well, you're the expert in pitiful tactical analysis standpoints...

---

At least my predictions come true. You predicted Ukraine capturing Crimea. What a foolish thing to have said. I didn't say that. You should talk less and learn more if you want to be taken seriously. Thanks!

---

Just because you make up bull**** doesn't make it true.

JFC, your parroting of Putin propaganda has made you daft.

I never said that, much less even intimated it.

That is certainly an opinion

🇺🇸🚨‼️ US army prepares to confront Russia, China and Iran!

Yeah … it’s not a serious organization anymore.

pic.twitter.com/JmgqB8Oq4V

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) December 31, 2023

Ag with kids said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Ag with kids said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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And for the record I don't think Nortex is pro Russian. I think he's so blinded by hating a feeble old man like Biden that he will cast his lot behind a violent dictator that hates the west if it means there's a chance to blame Biden.

---

I tend to agree...

---

The disconnect here is that, yet again (sorry to repeat myself), Biden is (a) not the real leader in the White House, (b) Biden's family has been on the communist china/russian/ukrainian oligarch payroll for decades, and (c) Kiev is ruled by a violent totalitarian/dictator as well. The Biden proxy war in Ukraine has benefitted China, his primary paymasters.

Other than that, mostly sound logic. Just, devoid of substantive rebuttals toward any points made today.

I'll just ask one more time for posterity, will the EU meet their 'priority' goal of 155mm ammo 'aid' to Ukraine in the 12 months they provided? Are there any actual substantive complaints as to what I 'fair use' cited above?

---

Your disconnect is to think that Putin invading Ukraine has anything to do with Biden/China/EU/Obama/Anyone else and not solely with Putin wanting to absorb Ukraine back into Mother Russia.

Everything else is just either background noise or Putin's excuses...

And to answer the question, I don't know if they will, although I expect they'll pull their heads out after awhile and a) either get close to the amount by the due date or b) get the full amount but after the due date. Euros are lazy ****s so it could be either one. However, I DO know that the article you posted does not substantiate your point about not meeting 50%.

---

"The full amount after the due date". This is pitiful from a tactical analysis standpoint.

---

Well, you're the expert in pitiful tactical analysis standpoints...

---

At least my predictions come true. You predicted Ukraine capturing Crimea. What a foolish thing to have said. I didn't say that. You should talk less and learn more if you want to be taken seriously. Thanks!

---

Just because you make up bull**** doesn't make it true.

JFC, your parroting of Putin propaganda has made you daft.

I never said that, much less even intimated it.

---

Look at how vigorously he defends himself against the accusation that he supports Zelensky's stated goals; probably because he knows they're bull***** That is telling and I don't even have time to pull receipts from when he did support it.

Zelensky is another godless agnostic Jew. I don't know how anyone would support his cause under a Christian name.

It's time for some people to rethink their positions.

Good piece by Ted Carpenter at National Interest:

Quote:

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Having Ukraine as a de facto "ally" should make Washington increasingly uneasy. The United States has portrayed that country as a peaceful Western democracy striving to defend its territory and independence from an allegedly rapacious Russia. In his April 2 telephone call to Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, President Joe Biden "affirmed the United States' unwavering support for Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity in the face of Russia's ongoing aggression in the Donbas and Crimea. He emphasized his administration's commitment to revitalize our strategic partnership in support of President Zelenskyy's plan to tackle corruption and implement a reform agenda based on our shared democratic values that delivers justice, security, and prosperity to the people of Ukraine."

The key assumptions undergirding U.S. policy toward Ukraine are faulty. Burgeoning authoritarianism rather than a commitment to democracy marks Kiev's internal governance, and the country's foreign policy is alarmingly bellicose toward its much larger, more powerful neighbor. Ukraine is both an unworthy and dangerous partner for the United States.

Zelenskyy's government not only has perpetuated the pervasive corruption that has plagued Ukraine since independence, but it is also intensifying policies that undermine basic civil liberties. Zelenskyy and his supporters contend that restrictive measures are needed to thwart Russia's subversion efforts, but targets now include classical liberal factions that have no plausible connection to the Kremlin. U.S. leaders face the prospect of backing a thinly disguised autocracy rather than a democratic government.

Although Ukraine's domestic trends are troubling, far more worrisome is the leadership's jingoistic rhetoric and policy positions regarding Kiev's relations with Moscow. That development should be more than a matter of academic concern for the United States. Even though Ukraine is not a member of NATO, and Congress never has been asked to approve any agreement (much less a formal treaty requiring a two-thirds vote of the Senate) by treating Kiev as an official U.S. ally, American officials clearly regard the country as an important political and security partner. The Trump and Biden administrations have approved multiple arms sales to Kiev, U.S. personnel have trained Ukrainian troops, and U.S. forces (along with units from other NATO countries) have conducted joint military exercises (war games), with their Ukrainian counterparts on several occasions. In short, U.S. leaders treat Ukraine as a full-fledged, albeit de facto, ally).

However, Kiev is not really an ally; it is a weak U.S. security dependent that has markedly hostile relations with Russia. But Ukraine's leaders are not deterred by their country's military limitations. In late August, Ukraine held its first military parade in several years, celebrating the 30th anniversary of its independence, and declared that it would reclaim both Crimea, which Russia annexed in 2014, and territories in the eastern Donbas region that are under the control of Kremlin-backed separatists. The country's official defense strategy document adopted in March explicitly includes those goals.

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Quote:

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Ukrainian officials contemplate more than allied diplomatic backing in their campaign to confront Russia. In April, Zelenskyy stated explicitly that the only way to end Russian "aggression" in the Donbas, much less reverse Moscow's annexation of Crimea, would be to give Ukraine membership in NATO. But such a step would be extraordinarily dangerous. Kremlin officials have made it clear on multiple occasions that NATO membership for Kiev crosses a red line in terms of Russia's security and will not be tolerated. Ukraine in NATO also means that the United States would be obligated under Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty to come to Kiev's defense. It would be simplicity itself for Ukraine to exploit a military incident and charge that it was an act of Russian aggression. Indeed, Ukrainian leaders contend that the annexation of Crimea and Moscow's support for Donbas insurgents already constitute acts of aggression.

Continued U.S. backing for Ukraine's unrealistic territorial ambitions is unwise and dangerous while backing Kiev's bid for NATO membership, which every U.S. administration beginning with George W. Bush's has done, is even more reckless. Treating Ukraine as an ally creates serious and growing perils for the American people. The only thing worse than a weak, vulnerable security client, is a weak, vulnerable client that seeks to pursue an aggressive policy that it cannot possibly sustain with its own military resources, and instead expects backing from its powerful benefactor. In 1914, Serbia entangled Czarist Russia in its reckless ambitions and triggered a massive conflict that destroyed its patron and so much else. Given Kiev's behavior, Ukraine could become the Serbia of the 2020s. The Biden administration must not replicate the Czar's folly and fall into such a trap. Washington should cut Ukraine loose and let it fend for itself.

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Ukraine should absolutely not be treated/handled as an ally.

National Interest: no one is interested in Ukraine any longer (paywall)

Quote:

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But if we fast-forward, Ukraine's counteroffensive last summer was a damp squib. For months on end, every inch of liberated territory has been gained through huge loss of life and munitions. The Russians are dug in, their confiscated eastern regions heavily fortified. The battle lines having barely moved for months, the conflict's visuals now recollect the meat-grinding Western Front of World War One. Our plot has stalled. This is the middle bit of a novel where if nothing appreciable happens for long enough the reader is apt to put the book down.

For us observers, this is supposed to be a David and Goliath story. But David and Goliath is a crap story if the giant wins. The big man pummels the little man? Predictable, a bit disheartening and not really a story at all, just the way the world works. Besides, a western audience wants to see the good guy win, both to mete out justice and to enjoy victory by proxy. Sophisticated literature often resolves with more complexity with bitterness, irony or tragedy but that's one reason literary fiction is less popular than the commercial kind. Most people prefer happy endings. Any bestselling thriller writer would subject the Ukrainians to plenty of nail-biting adversity, but Zelensky would finally triumph, reclaiming all his nation's occupied territory, including Crimea.

Ukraine's anguishing self-defense is not a novel. But we're quietly losing interest in this conflict I include myself because it's not satisfying our fictional appetites. Recall that about a year ago I worried here that our narrative expectations of this war may be taking us into the realm of fantasy. I observed glumly that the war's probable resolution is an ugly moral compromise that sacrifices a goodly chunk of a sovereign nation to a monomaniacal bully who will doubtless spin Ukrainian concessions as a dazzling military success, one that redeems for the Russian people his unprovoked aggression and the many deaths of their sons, brothers and fathers.

This endgame is more likely than ever. I'm not happy about that. In fact, it makes me sick. But the average age of the Ukrainian army is now forty-three, a statistic that makes me even sicker. They're running out of young men, not because the young men won't serve but because they're dead. Ukrainian women are being sent to the front lines. Russia had nearly four times the population of Ukraine before the war; given the reduced population in Kyiv-controlled areas, the countries are now mismatched in manpower by a factor of five. With his legacy and political future on the line, Putin is clearly all-in for the long haul. The easily manipulated Russian public have not rebelled. Putin's inner sanctum hasn't staged a coup. Russian GDP has increased since last year. The rouble started rising against the dollar. Western sanctions have failed.

I don't share the view of many Republicans that Ukraine should be thrown under a bus because the country is none of our business and America should spend taxpayers' money on solutions to its own problems. But just because the conflict's resolution has major geopolitical ramifications doesn't mean we can write our own happy ending. No matter how much ordnance the US and NATO ship to Zelensky, we're not providing the soldiers obliged to wield it. I say this with a heavy heart: if the writing is on the wall if a negotiated settlement that cedes captured territory to Putin looks inevitable maybe it's time to urge the Zelensky government to enter talks to bring this depressing war to its depressing conclusion. Dragging out an entrenched stalemate merely racks up a higher body count and destroys more Ukrainian homes and infrastructure to no purpose. Sitting back and giving Ukrainians just enough weaponry to keep fighting to the last man and woman, only for the country to finally end up where we always knew it would, is not just immoral. It's murder.

---

As 'some' of us expected.

Be mindful of getting in bed with atheist and agnostic leadership, even if they are secular conservative types. For they don't have a spine and are untethered. They are like grass clippings held only by the blades of grass surrounding them and move whichever way the wind of culture blows.

Oh I agree. The history of Ukrainian nationalism is interesting, to say the least. I put (a smaller/hopefully not too controversial version of) this basically on 'the other' thread but some discussion/revisitation of an outcome is warranted now. Much of it historically (the west's support for Ukrainian nationalism) is tied to the RCC church there in the 1700's etc.

A simple/elegant solution involving a partition of Ukraine where 'both' or all sides consider it a win would be to also return a slice of Western Ukraine to Hungary/Poland. Nato/EU membership, more defensible, etc. This has been proposed many times, and is historically essentially the case. 10 years ago this was not really a controversial assertion. (Need a translator browser):

Quote:

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Zakarpattia 's distinctiveness is rooted, in part, in its physical geography . Located across the formidable Carpathians from the rest of the country , it lies in and around the Danube basin , also known as the Pannonian Plain . As such, it is much more easily accessible from Budapest , Bratislava, and even Vienna than it is from Kyiv (Kiev), let alone Moscow.

Historical-geographical patterns also helped explain the " nationalist " political regionalization of Ukraine. The main part of this region , dubbed " Core Ukraine" on the map above , was long under Polish-Lithuanian rule , but came under Russian rule with the partition of Poland in the late 1700s . Ukraine 's Far West , on the other hand , passed from Polish to Austrian (Habsburg-Empire) rule , forming the eastern portion of its Galicia region. It was returned to Poland after World War I, and did not become part of the Soviet Union until the end of World War II.

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Quote:

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The Austrian period appears to have been crucial in nurturing the West's extreme devotion to Ukrainian nationalism as well as identification with the West. The key factor here was the continued survival and indeed flourishing of the Uniate Church, which emerged in the late 1500s under Polish-Lithuanian rule, when the Roman Catholic Church successfully brought part of the local religious institution under its umbrella as a of the so- called Eastern Catholic churches (such autonomous Catholic divisions were allowed to hold their own liturgies as well as married priests).

The Austrians granted equal legal privileges to the Uniate Church and removed Polish influence. They also mandated that Uniate seminarians receive a formal higher education (previously, priests had been educated informally by other priests, usually their parents, as the vocation was passed within families) and institutions in Vienna and Lviv that would serve this organized function . This led to the emergence, for the first time, of a large educated social class within the Ukrainian population in Galicia.

As a result, within Austrian Galicia during the next century the Uniate Church ceased to be a puppet of foreign interests and became the primary cultural force within the Ukrainian community. Most independent native Ukrainian cultural trends... emerged from within the ranks of the Uniate Church. The participation of Uniate priests or their Ukrainian sons in Western cultural and political life was so great that Western Ukrainians were accused of wanting to create a theocracy in western Ukraine by their Polish rivals.

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Such borders would likely lead to a longer term peace/successful outcome for the peoples involved, and a smaller, contiguous, more defensible, and also less belligerent Ukraine without the sectarian divisions/resentment it has experienced in the post-Soviet period.

🎄🇦🇪🇷🇺 Dubai congratulates Russians on Russia Day!

This is what the Burj Khalifa was like today 😍

And here's what the official Burj Khalifa website said:

"Today we celebrate Russia's rich history , vibrant culture and outstanding achievements !
We wish the Russian people to… pic.twitter.com/yY8mtgmozl

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) January 1, 2024

Non sequitur (it does not follow).

For Dubai knows that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
But thanks for showing that all of Islam supports Hamas and their constituents.

The Marxists, whom seduced us into involvement in supporting Ukraine, are the real enemy. Thoughts have consequences and we are following bad consequences.

If we stopped supporting Ukraine because we are prolonging the war and costing more lives, then it would have no negative affect on the nation state of Israel. None. That is why all you have a non sequitur.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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🎄🇦🇪🇷🇺 Dubai congratulates Russians on Russia Day!

This is what the Burj Khalifa was like today 😍

And here's what the official Burj Khalifa website said:

"Today we celebrate Russia's rich history , vibrant culture and outstanding achievements !
We wish the Russian people to… pic.twitter.com/yY8mtgmozl

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) January 1, 2024

---

Interesting.

The Burj Khalifa skyscraper in Dubai was illuminated in the colors of the Ukrainian flag in honor of the Independence Day of Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/HBseYR7sHq

— NEXTA (@nexta_tv) August 24, 2023

Today is Nazi Bandera day in Ukraine, when they usually have parades with lot's of symbolism from his nazi days on show. I guess they decided not to publicize that this year.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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🎄🇦🇪🇷🇺 Dubai congratulates Russians on Russia Day!

This is what the Burj Khalifa was like today 😍

And here's what the official Burj Khalifa website said:

"Today we celebrate Russia's rich history , vibrant culture and outstanding achievements !
We wish the Russian people to… pic.twitter.com/yY8mtgmozl

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) January 1, 2024

---

Interesting.

The Burj Khalifa skyscraper in Dubai was illuminated in the colors of the Ukrainian flag in honor of the Independence Day of Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/HBseYR7sHq

— NEXTA (@nexta_tv) August 24, 2023

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Appear to me they've changed teams. Your tweet is pretty old.

Russian drop drones (247th Guards) causing serious losses to Ukrainian infantry near Verbove as this front crumbles pic.twitter.com/xXOJGOP7bm

— What the media hides. (@narrative_hole) January 1, 2024

Looks exactly like a call of duty video game. But those are actual humans.

Seems like they are just trying to show respect to all parties. The old tweet is from August 2023 which according to the tweet would have been Uke's independence day.

Dubai is a place of tourism and high rollers from all parts of the world. Perhaps they showed the American flag on July 4th and the CCP flag on whatever their national holiday is?

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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🎄🇦🇪🇷🇺 Dubai congratulates Russians on Russia Day!

This is what the Burj Khalifa was like today 😍

And here's what the official Burj Khalifa website said:

"Today we celebrate Russia's rich history , vibrant culture and outstanding achievements !
We wish the Russian people to… pic.twitter.com/yY8mtgmozl

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) January 1, 2024

---

Interesting.

The Burj Khalifa skyscraper in Dubai was illuminated in the colors of the Ukrainian flag in honor of the Independence Day of Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/HBseYR7sHq

— NEXTA (@nexta_tv) August 24, 2023

---

Appear to me they've changed teams. Your tweet is pretty old.

---

A quick google (and a couple of comments) seem to think Russia Day is actually June 12 and it's an old photo. Seems more likely that building just gets lit up for different reasons constantly, but can't let facts get in the way of some good pro Russian propaganda though.

TheGreatEscape said:

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Zelensky is another godless agnostic Jew. I don't know how anyone would support his cause under a Christian name.

It's time for some people to rethink their positions.

---

Holy antisemitism Batman

Teslag said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Zelensky is another godless agnostic Jew. I don't know how anyone would support his cause under a Christian name.

It's time for some people to rethink their positions.

---

Holy antisemitism Batman

---

That's a ridiculous claim. I'm against all agnostics, atheists, and secularists who will not work with me; just as they are against our cause (regardless of their ethnic heritage).

For the Gospel is for the elect of every nation, tribe, and language. It's at the root of my being to love all people groups.

I'm also for Israel to destroy Moslem Gaza. Have you not read?

I'm also a fan of most all of what Ben Shapiro teaches, and Levy, and Dennis Prager. We are allies on many many things.

I don't buy into ethnic shields or protected classes of individuals or groups. And this is what people do.

No serious person thinks you're an anti-semite. His accusations reeks of the Ukrainian desperation we've gotten used to lately.

Not worth being upset about such a charge, given the source.

The question of the day here and on the 'yay war' thread alike is how the war gets resolved.

I've advanced a theory/rough map I think is most likely to be beneficial long term for the parties/people on the ground, but some still have no clue how to placate the military complex/CCP-Biden, and Russia alike, it seems, and are as usual reduced to snarking about or accusing others of bigotry etc.

A long term future should be the biggest goal but the short term should be a truce/ceasefire asap, imho. Perhaps the prospect of an election in November is driving more interest in such sooner than later.

Quote:

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the 'yay war' thread

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No snark here folks.


Your map pushes Russia right up to NATO's borders. Which we were told Russia wanted no part of….

Thanks for the defense, Ags.

I saw. If Russia and Ukraine would go for the geographic change, then that would be great. The Southern part of Ukraine is more valuable to Russian farming and food supply issues. They hungry over ther.

TheGreatEscape said:

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Thanks for the defense, Ags.

I saw. If Russia and Ukraine would go for the geographic change, then that would be great. The Southern part of Ukraine is more valuable to Russian farming and food supply issues. They hungry over ther.

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We were told this absolutely wasn't a land grab by Putin.

Teslag said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Zelensky is another godless agnostic Jew. I don't know how anyone would support his cause under a Christian name.

It's time for some people to rethink their positions.

---

Holy antisemitism Batman

---

This is always the response if you question anyone who is Jewish..hes' right btw nothing anti-semtic about it.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Ag with kids said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Ag with kids said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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And for the record I don't think Nortex is pro Russian. I think he's so blinded by hating a feeble old man like Biden that he will cast his lot behind a violent dictator that hates the west if it means there's a chance to blame Biden.

---

I tend to agree...

---

The disconnect here is that, yet again (sorry to repeat myself), Biden is (a) not the real leader in the White House, (b) Biden's family has been on the communist china/russian/ukrainian oligarch payroll for decades, and (c) Kiev is ruled by a violent totalitarian/dictator as well. The Biden proxy war in Ukraine has benefitted China, his primary paymasters.

Other than that, mostly sound logic. Just, devoid of substantive rebuttals toward any points made today.

I'll just ask one more time for posterity, will the EU meet their 'priority' goal of 155mm ammo 'aid' to Ukraine in the 12 months they provided? Are there any actual substantive complaints as to what I 'fair use' cited above?

---

Your disconnect is to think that Putin invading Ukraine has anything to do with Biden/China/EU/Obama/Anyone else and not solely with Putin wanting to absorb Ukraine back into Mother Russia.

Everything else is just either background noise or Putin's excuses...

And to answer the question, I don't know if they will, although I expect they'll pull their heads out after awhile and a) either get close to the amount by the due date or b) get the full amount but after the due date. Euros are lazy ****s so it could be either one. However, I DO know that the article you posted does not substantiate your point about not meeting 50%.

---

"The full amount after the due date". This is pitiful from a tactical analysis standpoint.

---

Well, you're the expert in pitiful tactical analysis standpoints...

---

At least my predictions come true. You predicted Ukraine capturing Crimea. What a foolish thing to have said. I didn't say that. You should talk less and learn more if you want to be taken seriously. Thanks!

---

Just because you make up bull**** doesn't make it true.

JFC, your parroting of Putin propaganda has made you daft.

I never said that, much less even intimated it.

---

Look at how vigorously he defends himself against the accusation that he supports Zelensky's stated goals; probably because he knows they're bull***** That is telling and I don't even have time to pull receipts from when he did support it.

---

What are you babbling about? You lied about something I said and I disagreed with you. You can't "pull receipts" because you know you lied.

nortex97 said:

---

Good piece by Ted Carpenter at National Interest:

Quote:

---

Having Ukraine as a de facto "ally" should make Washington increasingly uneasy. The United States has portrayed that country as a peaceful Western democracy striving to defend its territory and independence from an allegedly rapacious Russia. In his April 2 telephone call to Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, President Joe Biden "affirmed the United States' unwavering support for Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity in the face of Russia's ongoing aggression in the Donbas and Crimea. He emphasized his administration's commitment to revitalize our strategic partnership in support of President Zelenskyy's plan to tackle corruption and implement a reform agenda based on our shared democratic values that delivers justice, security, and prosperity to the people of Ukraine."

The key assumptions undergirding U.S. policy toward Ukraine are faulty. Burgeoning authoritarianism rather than a commitment to democracy marks Kiev's internal governance, and the country's foreign policy is alarmingly bellicose toward its much larger, more powerful neighbor. Ukraine is both an unworthy and dangerous partner for the United States.

Zelenskyy's government not only has perpetuated the pervasive corruption that has plagued Ukraine since independence, but it is also intensifying policies that undermine basic civil liberties. Zelenskyy and his supporters contend that restrictive measures are needed to thwart Russia's subversion efforts, but targets now include classical liberal factions that have no plausible connection to the Kremlin. U.S. leaders face the prospect of backing a thinly disguised autocracy rather than a democratic government.

Although Ukraine's domestic trends are troubling, far more worrisome is the leadership's jingoistic rhetoric and policy positions regarding Kiev's relations with Moscow. That development should be more than a matter of academic concern for the United States. Even though Ukraine is not a member of NATO, and Congress never has been asked to approve any agreement (much less a formal treaty requiring a two-thirds vote of the Senate) by treating Kiev as an official U.S. ally, American officials clearly regard the country as an important political and security partner. The Trump and Biden administrations have approved multiple arms sales to Kiev, U.S. personnel have trained Ukrainian troops, and U.S. forces (along with units from other NATO countries) have conducted joint military exercises (war games), with their Ukrainian counterparts on several occasions. In short, U.S. leaders treat Ukraine as a full-fledged, albeit de facto, ally).

However, Kiev is not really an ally; it is a weak U.S. security dependent that has markedly hostile relations with Russia. But Ukraine's leaders are not deterred by their country's military limitations. In late August, Ukraine held its first military parade in several years, celebrating the 30th anniversary of its independence, and declared that it would reclaim both Crimea, which Russia annexed in 2014, and territories in the eastern Donbas region that are under the control of Kremlin-backed separatists. The country's official defense strategy document adopted in March explicitly includes those goals.

---

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Ukrainian officials contemplate more than allied diplomatic backing in their campaign to confront Russia. In April, Zelenskyy stated explicitly that the only way to end Russian "aggression" in the Donbas, much less reverse Moscow's annexation of Crimea, would be to give Ukraine membership in NATO. But such a step would be extraordinarily dangerous. Kremlin officials have made it clear on multiple occasions that NATO membership for Kiev crosses a red line in terms of Russia's security and will not be tolerated. Ukraine in NATO also means that the United States would be obligated under Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty to come to Kiev's defense. It would be simplicity itself for Ukraine to exploit a military incident and charge that it was an act of Russian aggression. Indeed, Ukrainian leaders contend that the annexation of Crimea and Moscow's support for Donbas insurgents already constitute acts of aggression.

Continued U.S. backing for Ukraine's unrealistic territorial ambitions is unwise and dangerous while backing Kiev's bid for NATO membership, which every U.S. administration beginning with George W. Bush's has done, is even more reckless. Treating Ukraine as an ally creates serious and growing perils for the American people. The only thing worse than a weak, vulnerable security client, is a weak, vulnerable client that seeks to pursue an aggressive policy that it cannot possibly sustain with its own military resources, and instead expects backing from its powerful benefactor. In 1914, Serbia entangled Czarist Russia in its reckless ambitions and triggered a massive conflict that destroyed its patron and so much else. Given Kiev's behavior, Ukraine could become the Serbia of the 2020s. The Biden administration must not replicate the Czar's folly and fall into such a trap. Washington should cut Ukraine loose and let it fend for itself.

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Ukraine should absolutely not be treated/handled as an ally.

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Ah yes...Ted Carpenter who is so far out over his skis that even the libertarian Cato Institute fired him.

He also wrote a nice screed about how the US needs to get over itself and get back to having good relations with Iran...published on Oct 6th...

nortex97 said:

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Oh I agree. The history of Ukrainian nationalism is interesting, to say the least. I put (a smaller/hopefully not too controversial version of) this basically on 'the other' thread but some discussion/revisitation of an outcome is warranted now. Much of it historically (the west's support for Ukrainian nationalism) is tied to the RCC church there in the 1700's etc.

A simple/elegant solution involving a partition of Ukraine where 'both' or all sides consider it a win would be to also return a slice of Western Ukraine to Hungary/Poland. Nato/EU membership, more defensible, etc. This has been proposed many times, and is historically essentially the case. 10 years ago this was not really a controversial assertion. (Need a translator browser):

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Zakarpattia 's distinctiveness is rooted, in part, in its physical geography . Located across the formidable Carpathians from the rest of the country , it lies in and around the Danube basin , also known as the Pannonian Plain . As such, it is much more easily accessible from Budapest , Bratislava, and even Vienna than it is from Kyiv (Kiev), let alone Moscow.

Historical-geographical patterns also helped explain the " nationalist " political regionalization of Ukraine. The main part of this region , dubbed " Core Ukraine" on the map above , was long under Polish-Lithuanian rule , but came under Russian rule with the partition of Poland in the late 1700s . Ukraine 's Far West , on the other hand , passed from Polish to Austrian (Habsburg-Empire) rule , forming the eastern portion of its Galicia region. It was returned to Poland after World War I, and did not become part of the Soviet Union until the end of World War II.

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The Austrian period appears to have been crucial in nurturing the West's extreme devotion to Ukrainian nationalism as well as identification with the West. The key factor here was the continued survival and indeed flourishing of the Uniate Church, which emerged in the late 1500s under Polish-Lithuanian rule, when the Roman Catholic Church successfully brought part of the local religious institution under its umbrella as a of the so- called Eastern Catholic churches (such autonomous Catholic divisions were allowed to hold their own liturgies as well as married priests).

The Austrians granted equal legal privileges to the Uniate Church and removed Polish influence. They also mandated that Uniate seminarians receive a formal higher education (previously, priests had been educated informally by other priests, usually their parents, as the vocation was passed within families) and institutions in Vienna and Lviv that would serve this organized function . This led to the emergence, for the first time, of a large educated social class within the Ukrainian population in Galicia.

As a result, within Austrian Galicia during the next century the Uniate Church ceased to be a puppet of foreign interests and became the primary cultural force within the Ukrainian community. Most independent native Ukrainian cultural trends... emerged from within the ranks of the Uniate Church. The participation of Uniate priests or their Ukrainian sons in Western cultural and political life was so great that Western Ukrainians were accused of wanting to create a theocracy in western Ukraine by their Polish rivals.

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Such borders would likely lead to a longer term peace/successful outcome for the peoples involved, and a smaller, contiguous, more defensible, and also less belligerent Ukraine without the sectarian divisions/resentment it has experienced in the post-Soviet period.

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I'm sure that Ukraine would agree to become completely landocked and dependent on Russia for access to the Black Sea.

And give up 3 of their 4 biggest cities...

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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🎄🇦🇪🇷🇺 Dubai congratulates Russians on Russia Day!

This is what the Burj Khalifa was like today 😍

And here's what the official Burj Khalifa website said:

"Today we celebrate Russia's rich history , vibrant culture and outstanding achievements !
We wish the Russian people to… pic.twitter.com/yY8mtgmozl

— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) January 1, 2024

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Interesting.

The Burj Khalifa skyscraper in Dubai was illuminated in the colors of the Ukrainian flag in honor of the Independence Day of Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/HBseYR7sHq

— NEXTA (@nexta_tv) August 24, 2023

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It's almost as if...they weren't taking sides.

Teslag said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Thanks for the defense, Ags.

I saw. If Russia and Ukraine would go for the geographic change, then that would be great. The Southern part of Ukraine is more valuable to Russian farming and food supply issues. They hungry over ther.

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We were told this absolutely wasn't a land grab by Putin.

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They wouldn't LIE would they? Well, except for that one guy.

911sAg said:

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Teslag said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Zelensky is another godless agnostic Jew. I don't know how anyone would support his cause under a Christian name.

It's time for some people to rethink their positions.

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Holy antisemitism Batman

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This is always the response if you question anyone who is Jewish..hes' right btw nothing anti-semtic about it.

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That's right. For many have hijacked the Jewish legacy.

I stand with God fearing Jews throughout the world.

Teslag said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Thanks for the defense, Ags.

I saw. If Russia and Ukraine would go for the geographic change, then that would be great. The Southern part of Ukraine is more valuable to Russian farming and food supply issues. They hungry over ther.

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We were told this absolutely wasn't a land grab by Putin.

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And we tried a land grab in British Canada for timber.
So what is your point?
Why am I having to repeat myself?

TheGreatEscape said:

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Teslag said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

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Thanks for the defense, Ags.

I saw. If Russia and Ukraine would go for the geographic change, then that would be great. The Southern part of Ukraine is more valuable to Russian farming and food supply issues. They hungry over ther.

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We were told this absolutely wasn't a land grab by Putin.

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And we tried a land grab in British Canada for timber.
So what is your point?
Why am I having to repeat myself?

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So, you're stating this was a land grab?

Okay. Once again because we live in an untethered culture, this means that it is difficult to quote any proper authority on any given subject. They are all wishy washy invertebrates
that will sting you if you get too close. But ain't skuuured.

Every time we show sources from our side, then you will go after the same nonsense. Every time your godless side brings up their money backing Chinese supporters, we will say the same thing back at you.