Russia was ready to make peace if Ukraine had agreed to neutrality and promised not to join NATO.

This statement was made by the leader of the Servant of the People faction, David Arakhamia.

“Russia’s goal was to put pressure on us so that we would take neutrality. This was… https://t.co/Rdujbi3jgi pic.twitter.com/QMdwEWIn3i

— Olga Bazova (@OlgaBazova) November 25, 2023

This is very nearly Biden's war as much as it is Putin's.

The Ukrainians should never accept any peace that doesn't allow for nato membership. Anything else is suicide.

And there wouldn't need to be a peace deal if…





Russian hadn't invaded a sovereign nation. That is 100% the fault of Russia and no one else.

Ukraine said to Russia "we reject your offering of peace and choose a path to align with the enemy of Russia, including the potential for missiles and troops to be stationed close to Moscow."

And the expectation is that Putin would say "okay, we tried, we will sit quietly back and let the West march to our border before we think about reacting".

Laughable and naive and shows not only Joe's complete lack of experience in geopolitical negotiations / posturing, but also reveals the naivety of the average american (and many TexAgs poster, myself not included).

Russia already borders NATO countries. This was purely a land grab.

Russia's invasion to prevent an additional NATO country on their border has already resulted in additional countries joining NATO, including one on their border

Interesting people point to "additional country(ies) joining NATO but fail to point out which countries.

For those playing at home, the country is Finland which by its nature of being a member of the EU already enjoyed de facto NATO protection.

Also funny someone says "yea, just a land grab". Well, I agree. Putin wanted an additional buffer zone and direct access to what he considered strategic positions and resources.

Fact - Putin was goaded into this military operation by Biden who essentially rolled out the red carpet with his "minor incursion" remarks and his baby step, incremental support / aid.

Quote:

---

Putin wanted an additional buffer zone and direct access to what he considered strategic positions and resources.

---

And that makes Russia 100% responsible for this war.

Exactly. Roughly, the proximate cause seems to be the folks in the Biden administration seeking to spike energy prices, particularly in Europe. Note they had to have approved the Ukrainian nordstream attack too. The first real impact globally to this war was a massive economic downturn and spike in energy costs in Europe (Germany most significantly).

Whether the drivers were actually team Biden's CCP handlers, or green new deal true-believers in the administration/NSC itself we probably won't know for many years. Everything else since has been theater/death/secondary. The CCP is the biggest winner of course (Paid article), and the people of Ukraine the greatest losers.



Russia may, or may not be weaker, net (though clearly they are stronger than at the outset militarily), but the oligarchs in Russia and Ukraine alike are thoroughly enriched through the bloodshed.

Another "plus" for Russia was depopulating Ukraine. Though Russia has demographic issues of its own and lost a substantial number of combat aged men (mostly men), the refugees fleeing Ukraine and being welcomed with open arms by 'sympathetic' countries is a net positive should the Russians want to continue to expand.

Yes, when countries lose their naval flagship, droves of officers and NCO's, countless amounts of armor with no way to replace it, tons of aircraft with no way to replace it, many of their modern attack helicopters because the enemy now has longer range atacms, several naval vessels, including a cruise missile sub, and relegated to drafting prisoners to yet again fail at any major offensive in two years they are most definitely without question…


stronger militarily.

Quote:

---

should the Russians want to continue to expand.

---

Russia wants to expand in Ukraine. They just can't and have no way of doing so.

So are we in the winter offensive now since the spring one was a great success

Teslag said:

---

Quote:

---

should the Russians want to continue to expand.

---

Russia wants to expand in Ukraine. They just can't and have no way of doing so.

---

At least he now agrees this is a land grab...

Ag with kids said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Quote:

---

should the Russians want to continue to expand.

---

Russia wants to expand in Ukraine. They just can't and have no way of doing so.

---

At least he now agrees this is a land grab...

---

Did I say it wasn't? They were certainly always going to be keeping Crimea and they wanted more of a buffer, either with an agreeable Kiev or through force.

Ukraine would have been better off on compromising.

Some of you guys are either really bad at reading comprehension or simply only want to see / hear things that fit with your ass-umptions.

Quote:

---

Ukraine would have been better off on compromising.

---

If current lines remain exactly as they are today, which is probable, Ukraine is infinitely better off than being a Russian puppet without this war.

And make no mistake. Russia had no intention of a compromise in February of 2022.

LarryElder said:

---

So are we in the winter offensive now since the spring one was a great success

---

Yes. Some of these folks also believe in safe/effective vaccines, EVs to save the planet and 2 weeks to stop the spread.

They are simply unable to see things from a larger or even just another perspective and resort to snarks like stacking russian orcs or trying to own / skull crush other posters. Its sad really.

Russian has indeed shown it is unwilling and/or unable to continue the fight for all of Ukraine, though I would posit that if Putin had been successful in the all of Ukraine goal, he would have used that to get concessions and ultimately give back a portion of Ukraine.

Just my thoughts and takes on it.

They will wind up seeing this end with the nuland regime in Kiev falling anyway. There's a reason Zelensky the perfect one doesn't want to have any kind of elections.

As with most all of your other takes on the subject, I simply disagree with your opinion.

Quote:

---

Yes. Some of these folks also believe in safe/effective vaccines, EVs to save the planet and 2 weeks to stop the spread.

---

Quote:

---

and resort to snarks

---

fka ftc said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Quote:

---

should the Russians want to continue to expand.

---

Russia wants to expand in Ukraine. They just can't and have no way of doing so.

---

At least he now agrees this is a land grab...

---

Did I say it wasn't? They were certainly always going to be keeping Crimea and they wanted more of a buffer, either with an agreeable Kiev or through force.

Ukraine would have been better off on compromising.

Some of you guys are either really bad at reading comprehension or simply only want to see / hear things that fit with your ass-umptions.

---

Yes.

You've said multiple times on this thread that the only reason that Russia did this was because of NATO encroachment...

fka ftc said:

---

LarryElder said:

---

So are we in the winter offensive now since the spring one was a great success

---

Yes. Some of these folks also believe in safe/effective vaccines, EVs to save the planet and 2 weeks to stop the spread.

They are simply unable to see things from a larger or even just another perspective and resort to snarks like stacking russian orcs or trying to own / skull crush other posters. Its sad really.

Russian has indeed shown it is unwilling and/or unable to continue the fight for all of Ukraine, though I would posit that if Putin had been successful in the all of Ukraine goal, he would have used that to get concessions and ultimately give back a portion of Ukraine.

Just my thoughts and takes on it.

---

If Russia took all of Ukraine, what concessions would cause Putin to give any back?

Which is saying the same thing. Why are you always so dense on trying to say "nuh uh, you said these words and these words are different even though they say the same thing".

Preventing NATO encouragement by establishing a buffer zone by way of securing additional territory aka a land grab are all part of the same.

You just want to try and "score a point" and fail to even remotely comprehend what others are saying and what you are saying.

Is it just jealousy or hate that drives you?

Wow, how about lifting all sanctions, cash payments, agreement by NATO to not admit new members, etc. And we would have, especially with Biden, given them everything they wanted.

Don't also forget the tremendous growth and re-alignment toward BRICS. That's another great benefit of this wonderful war, as well as stacked up Slavic bodies.

fka ftc said:

---

Wow, how about lifting all sanctions, cash payments, agreement by NATO to not admit new members, etc. And we would have, especially with Biden, given them everything they wanted.

---

So completely reward Russia for their unprovoked aggression?

I think it's just how things work. If Russia conquers territory and someone wants it back, they can either fight for it or pay for it.

Spoils of war, victory and such.

I guess it's a good thing someone punched the bully in the nose

If you think Putin was taught a lesson… well, I guess that is one perspective. I think I'll take another one.

Yes, this war is exactly how Putin wanted it to go

Putin's original strategy (conquer Ukraine) didn't work out but his current strategy (wait out US interest in Ukraine) is going to work out just fine. He's going to end up with more Ukrainian territory than he started with. So in that regard this was a successful campaign for Russia. And that's really all that matters at the end of the day.

And I'm not saying I support it. It's just the reality and there isn't anything we can do about it. Some kind of arrangement needs to e negotiated at this point and we move on.

Awesome. Fred is a dolphin who likes to ride bicycles.

I mean, if you are going to strawman, at least be creative.

What a joke.

Well put.

Putin wanted all of Ukraine. Now he will get a sliver of it at the cost of most of his military left decimated and a permanent NATO presence in Ukraine right on his doorstep. And worse the world was shown that Russia is inept militarily and a paper tiger.

Teslag said:

---

Putin wanted all of Ukraine. Now he will get a sliver of it at the cost of most of his military left decimated and a permanent NATO presence in Ukraine right on his doorstep. And worse the world was shown that Russia is inept militarily and a paper tiger.

---

Sure but the only thing that matters now is how the current war gets resolved. And the only outcome is an agreement on current borders plus or minus a few meters.

YouBet said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Putin wanted all of Ukraine. Now he will get a sliver of it at the cost of most of his military left decimated and a permanent NATO presence in Ukraine right on his doorstep. And worse the world was shown that Russia is inept militarily and a paper tiger.

---

Sure but the only thing that matters now is how the current war gets resolved. And the only outcome is an agreement on current borders plus or minus a few meters.

---

I don't see that being sustainable or agreeable for Ukraine. It leaves them far too vulnerable. If any agreement is met, I'd say Russia has to abandon the South. Otherwise Ukraine will not likely go for it.