Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

526,375 Views | 9433 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by PlaneCrashGuy
fka ftc
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ABATTBQ11 said:

The Ukrainians are the ones who have termed them orcs for everything they've done in Ukraine, not anyone here. People champion "stacking bodies" because the Russians are invaders without provocation. It's no different than saying good riddance when a criminal breaking into a house gets acute lead poisoning from the owners.
So if a guy from Mississippi calls a Black by the n-word, you are cool using that term too? Legit take.

And no one here is calling them that? Seems a certain thread has a huge issue using the term.

https://texags.com/search?q=orcs

Soldiers are not criminals simply by doing their job. You can separate out the ones committing war crimes and treat them accordingly.
Ags4DaWin
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ABATTBQ11 said:

Ags4DaWin said:

ABATTBQ11 said:

fka ftc said:

ABATTBQ11 said:

nortex97 said:



Well…bye.

This is another I certainly won't cry about.


Fka will be here any second to tell you how cold and heartless you are for celebrating death
Or you could wait until I actually replied and realize how little you understand about me and what I previously posted.

There is a difference in saying you will not cry over the death / illness of someone who was in a decision making role and that of a guy on the front line doing his JOB.


Oh, ok. So it's ok to celebrate the guy giving the orders dying, but all the guys who mindlessly carry out the rape, murder, and pillaging are just blameless pawns. Got it.

That's fine for you, I guess. The rest of us aren't going to be upset that guys who could a) just surrender instead of taking part in an invasion, b) flee before getting conscripted, or c) shoot the guys giving orders did none of those things and instead went on invading another country and raping, murdering, and pillaging along the way. Unlike you, some of us are of the opinion that they had a choice, they made their choice, and dying for the likes of kadyrov and putin is the just consequence for that choice.


Cool. Just to be clear:

your official position is that soldiers and conscripts forcibly conscripted following orders in an immoral and illegal invasion of a soveirgn nation are to be blamed for their participation war crimes like the murdering, rape, and torturing of civilians and their participation in organized looting and theft in said invasion and their deaths celebrated?


FIFY

They know what they're doing and what their efforts are supporting. They can flee their country. They can desert. They can surrender. One of their pilots recently did exactly that with a helicopter because he knew what they were doing was wrong. They can shoot their officers. They have options beyond, "Well, I'm conscripted. Guess I'd better go kill these guys in this country we invaded for no reason. What else am I gonna do?"

If one person gives orders, and 100 follow, I blame the 100 just as much because they collectively chose to listen to the one. Russian conscripts and enlisted men far outnumber and outgun their officers, and they even farther outnumber their senior officers and leaders. If they truly didn't want to be there, they certainly have the means to resist.



If you want to disagree, let's look at a similar situation with corruption in the FBI. Do you think all of the lower level people who follow along, just do what they're told, and watch weaponization happen or actively participate are completely blameless? After all, they're just doing their jobs and following orders. It's not like they could refuse, quit, go to Congress, or literally anything else besides go along with harassing progressive political opponents and papering over the likes of Hunter Biden.

You are still being unclear here. Are all the Russian grunts, conscripts, and draftees to be blamed for the actions of the entire military. Is it YOUR position that they are all guilty of at best being complicit in the rape, murder, war crimes, etc because this is an illegal and immoral invasion of a soveirgn nation even if they do not directly commit these acts, or only the ones who actively participate in rape, looting, killing of civilians?
nortex97
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ABATTBQ11 said:

Considering Prigozhin actively mutinied and Kadyrov might have been murdered (or at least an attempt made), I think treason and subterfuge are just a little more likely on the Russian side.
There have been many reports of mutinies/refusals to move as ordered etc. on the Ukrainian side as well, as you're well aware.

I generally try not to post videos of war crimes/'war porn' stuff as it's just gross, but it's not hard to find for either side. Between Zelensky and Putin there's no shortage of fired commanders/leaders, though Putin didn't fire his entire 'recruiting' command structure.
GAC06
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ABATTBQ11
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nortex97 said:

ABATTBQ11 said:

Considering Prigozhin actively mutinied and Kadyrov might have been murdered (or at least an attempt made), I think treason and subterfuge are just a little more likely on the Russian side.
There have been many reports of mutinies/refusals to move as ordered etc. on the Ukrainian side as well, as you're well aware.

I generally try not to post videos of war crimes/'war porn' stuff as it's just gross, but it's not hard to find for either side. Between Zelensky and Putin there's no shortage of fired commanders/leaders, though Putin didn't fire his entire 'recruiting' command structure.


Zelensky fired his recruiting command structure for supposedly grifting. Until there's an armored column of pissed off mercs and troops marching on Kyiv and shooting down anything they see or Ukrainian window quality suddenly goes downhill, I'll have to disagree with you. I can find very little, meaning nothing, from any reputable source on Ukrainian "mutinies," but there is plenty on Russia trying its soldiers for refusing orders and Prigozhin marching on Rostov-on-Don and Moscow and destroying some pretty important Russian equipment along the way. Also all the officers and officials who keep falling out of windows.
nortex97
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Considering Prigozhin actively mutinied and Kadyrov might have been murdered (or at least an attempt made), I think treason and subterfuge are just a little more likely on the Russian side.
There have been many reports of mutinies/refusals to move as ordered etc. on the Ukrainian side as well, as you're well aware.

I generally try not to post videos of war crimes/'war porn' stuff as it's just gross, but it's not hard to find for either side. Between Zelensky and Putin there's no shortage of fired commanders/leaders, though Putin didn't fire his entire 'recruiting' command structure.


Zelensky fired his recruiting command structure for supposedly grifting. Until there's an armored column of pissed off mercs and troops marching on Kyiv and shooting down anything they see or Ukrainian window quality suddenly goes downhill, I'll have to disagree with you. I can find very little, meaning nothing, from any reputable source on Ukrainian "mutinies," but there is plenty on Russia trying its soldiers for refusing orders and Prigozhin marching on Rostov-on-Don and Moscow and destroying some pretty important Russian equipment along the way. Also all the officers and officials who keep falling out of windows.
Corruption? Hahaha. They literally grab people off the street to force them into service, widely. Every single one was corrupt, out of what, 20? I wouldn't expect any on the war champions team to have found any 'credible' sources about insurrection of UFA forces, reported on through propaganda outlets via hotels in Kiev with government approval. That is part of the problem that distorts the views of said groups, I believe.

Ukrainian recruiting, and loss rates, are going great.





In fact, even among the foreign mercenaries/volunteers the criminality and discipline is a growing problem:


Quote:

Quote:

The Daily Telegraph newspaper tried to conduct its own investigation into the mysterious death of two British soldiers in Ukraine. Daniel Burke disappeared from his apartment in the Zaporozhye region, and the body of Jordan Chadwick was found in a pond with his hands tied behind his back.

And the newspaper comes to a disappointing conclusion: most likely both were killed by their own people. In particular, according to the Telegraph, an analysis of the water in Chadwick's lungs showed a discrepancy with the water of the reservoir in which he was found. That is, he was drowned in another place, and then the body was transported.

And Burke, it seems, was killed because of money - the newspaper claims that a certain American millionaire transferred him 8 thousand monthly for his maintenance.

And the Telegraph writes (I quote verbatim): "Many complain that selection for service in Ukraine is practically non-existent. "There are guys who shouldn't be here: someone with a criminal record, someone with post-traumatic stress disorder, someone with drug and alcohol problems or someone using steroids," one volunteer said."

https://t.me/MediaKiller2021/9479
Quote:

Our source in the OP said that after the murder of two British instructors, volunteers began to leave Ukraine. The President's Office is trying to stop the scandal and has instructed the SBU to find killers among criminal structures with Russian traces in order to form the necessary opinion in the West about the special operation of the Russian special services to discredit Ukraine.

https://t.me/rezident_ua/19679

Meanwhile, Russia disclaims needing to use mercenaries at this point.

Ukrainian 'meat assault' tactics have evolved into a complex movement strategy:



Ukrainian statesmanship winning friends all over Europe:



The BRICS re-alignment of the Saudi's is having an impact on the defense industrial complex as well as inflation/oil gas:





Subscription article from Hersh about the dangers of being led into a broader war against American interests by our intelligence…apparatus.


Quote:

On Sunday Secretary of State Antony Blinken told Jonathan Karl of ABC's This Weekthat he remained "very confident in Ukraine's ultimate success" in the ongoing war with Russia. He depicted Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky's decision to escalate its attacks inside Russia as "their decision, not ours."

Blinken's wrong-headed confidence and his acceptance of a significant escalation in the Ukraine war defies belief, given the reality on the ground today in the war. But it also could be based on insanely optimistic assessments supplied by the Defense Intelligence Agency. The DIA's assessments, as I have reported, are now the intelligence of choice inside the White House.

As a journalist who has written about national security matters for many decades, how can I explain a process that is clearly contrary to the best interests of the people of the United States and its leadership?
Sledoba's latest 12 minute podcast is pretty good, though I frankly don't take anything the North Koreans say/do real seriously (skip that part). "Russia is running out of missiles' is a pretty hilarious narrative that some keep revisiting weekly, indeed.

This TNI editorial is right, Washington should be working to divide, not unite Russia and China.

Ukrainian attack (on churches/monasteries) succeeds. Maybe their trans spokes person thing will have an announcement about this great win.
PlaneCrashGuy
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I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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Anyone want to refresh our memory on the Montreux Convention of 1936?
Teslag
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Russian general admits Ukraine offensive is gaining ground and Russian propaganda is having a harder time minimizing it. Lol. Just as we all knew.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ex-russian-general-lies-obscure-reality-that-ukraine-gaining-ground-2023-9?amp

Quote:

On Friday morning, Russian Parliament member and former deputy commander of the Southern Military District Andrey Gurulyov posted a message on Telegram assessing the state of Ukraine's counteroffensive more than three months after Kyiv officially launched its push against extensive eastern and southern Russian defenses. His points were sharply at odds with the victoriousness and censorship that often characterize Russian war commentary.

Gurulyov wrote that Ukraine's troops have changed their combat tactics, "have a lot of ammunition," and "are trying to burn out absolutely everything," according to a translation.

"They are no longer moving forward in large forces; they were obviously forbidden to lose heavy equipment en masse," he said, noting that the Ukrainians "have switched to squeeze-out tactics" and "are massively using cluster shells, inflicting damage on the stronger points of our units."
LarryElder
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Teslag said:

Russian general admits Ukraine offensive is gaining ground and Russian propaganda is having a harder time minimizing it. Lol. Just as we all knew.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ex-russian-general-lies-obscure-reality-that-ukraine-gaining-ground-2023-9?amp

Quote:

On Friday morning, Russian Parliament member and former deputy commander of the Southern Military District Andrey Gurulyov posted a message on Telegram assessing the state of Ukraine's counteroffensive more than three months after Kyiv officially launched its push against extensive eastern and southern Russian defenses. His points were sharply at odds with the victoriousness and censorship that often characterize Russian war commentary.

Gurulyov wrote that Ukraine's troops have changed their combat tactics, "have a lot of ammunition," and "are trying to burn out absolutely everything," according to a translation.

"They are no longer moving forward in large forces; they were obviously forbidden to lose heavy equipment en masse," he said, noting that the Ukrainians "have switched to squeeze-out tactics" and "are massively using cluster shells, inflicting damage on the stronger points of our units."



So the war is almost over ?
fka ftc
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Stat Monitor Repairman said:



Anyone want to refresh our memory on the Montreux Convention of 1936?
Have never heard of it but evidently governs the link between Med and Black Seas.

Turkey ending its bit to the EU is expected and is in line with other reports of the EU losing other members as well.

NATO is also going to be on the path of weakening in the region and not becoming stronger regardless of Ukraine outcome. I know that will be sad news to the pro orc corpse stacking brigade, but its just how things are playing out over there.

USA needs to stay far far away. We have our own **** to focus on.

America First. Always.
fka ftc
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LarryElder said:

Teslag said:

Russian general admits Ukraine offensive is gaining ground and Russian propaganda is having a harder time minimizing it. Lol. Just as we all knew.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ex-russian-general-lies-obscure-reality-that-ukraine-gaining-ground-2023-9?amp

Quote:

On Friday morning, Russian Parliament member and former deputy commander of the Southern Military District Andrey Gurulyov posted a message on Telegram assessing the state of Ukraine's counteroffensive more than three months after Kyiv officially launched its push against extensive eastern and southern Russian defenses. His points were sharply at odds with the victoriousness and censorship that often characterize Russian war commentary.

Gurulyov wrote that Ukraine's troops have changed their combat tactics, "have a lot of ammunition," and "are trying to burn out absolutely everything," according to a translation.

"They are no longer moving forward in large forces; they were obviously forbidden to lose heavy equipment en masse," he said, noting that the Ukrainians "have switched to squeeze-out tactics" and "are massively using cluster shells, inflicting damage on the stronger points of our units."



So the war is almost over ?
Yes, just like the Ags will be fighting to win the SEC West. You just have to wait on the process to play out.
nortex97
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Well, if there's someone who understands all the ins and outs of Russian politics and military operations/strength/weaknesses, surely it would be…
Teslag
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nortex97 said:

Well, if there's someone who understands all the ins and outs of Russian politics and military operations/strength/weaknesses, surely it would be…


Well he's certainly no Scott Ritter or rando on Twitter
ABATTBQ11
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Teslag said:

nortex97 said:

Well, if there's someone who understands all the ins and outs of Russian politics and military operations/strength/weaknesses, surely it would be…


Well he's certainly no Scott Ritter or rando on Twitter


But does he have a substack?
YouBet
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Just checking in. Doesn't seem like anything has changed.

Russia is dug in holding way more territory than it started with and Ukraine has regained a rounding errors worth of land back from them.
Teslag
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YouBet said:

Just checking in. Doesn't seem like anything has changed.

Russia is dug in holding way more territory than it started with and Ukraine has regained a rounding errors worth of land back from them.


Russia has lost 60% of what they gained at their height of the February 202/ invasion
TheBonifaceOption
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Teslag said:

YouBet said:

Just checking in. Doesn't seem like anything has changed.

Russia is dug in holding way more territory than it started with and Ukraine has regained a rounding errors worth of land back from them.


Russia has lost 60% of what they gained at their height of the February 202/ invasion

For someone who thinks territory is the end all be all of war, I guess Ukraine is actually winning this war.
Teslag
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TheBonifaceOption said:

Teslag said:

YouBet said:

Just checking in. Doesn't seem like anything has changed.

Russia is dug in holding way more territory than it started with and Ukraine has regained a rounding errors worth of land back from them.


Russia has lost 60% of what they gained at their height of the February 202/ invasion

For someone who thinks territory is the end all be all of war, I guess Ukraine is actually winning this war.


Russia, and Russia alone, started this war only take territory. That's all that mattered to them.
fka ftc
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And?!

If Ukes want it back, they can hash it out. But it should t cost me $$$ billions.
Teslag
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fka ftc said:

And?!

If Ukes want it back, they can hash it out. But it should t cost me $$$ billions.


Nothing wrong with this mindset. Perfectly valid to question our spending on it. I think it's worth it. You don't. And we are both entitled to an opinion on the use of our tax dollars.
YouBet
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Teslag said:

YouBet said:

Just checking in. Doesn't seem like anything has changed.

Russia is dug in holding way more territory than it started with and Ukraine has regained a rounding errors worth of land back from them.


Russia has lost 60% of what they gained at their height of the February 202/ invasion
The back and forth during the beginning of this is irrelevant at this juncture.

Russia had Crimea and a small chunk of sympathizers before they invaded. Now they control ~20%(?) of Ukraine so Russia will have carved off even more land than they started with.

The end game is what matters here and that end game is likely going to be the borders we see right now plus or minus a margin of error. Maybe Ukraine will break through and rout them but that seems unlikely.

Stalemate is where the betting money is.
Teslag
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I think something along the current lines is probable with the ukes taking a bit more territory. Russia has no means of a major offensive and Ukraine can't take anymore large areas without CAS. Once Ukraine is in NATO and they have a presence in Ukraine this war is over. And so is any future war here. Russia doesn't want a nato presence for obvious reasons. They'd like to take another bite at the apple later on.
nortex97
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That's not really 'breaking news' but a restatement that some of us have known about since the war's start.





Saint Zelensky threatening his pals in Europe again:

Quote:

Zelensky wrote on Telegram that he had talked to European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen on the phone, telling her that he was "deeply grateful" to her for "keeping her word and maintaining the rules of the free market."

The decision by Brussels not to extend the ban "is an example of true unity and trust between Ukraine and the EU. Europe always wins when the rules work and the treaties are fulfilled," he said.

However, the Ukrainian leader added that "now it's important [to make sure] European unity also works on a bilateral level; that the neighbors support Ukraine" amid its conflict with Russia.

If Poland, Hungary, Romania or Slovakia make decisions that "violate EU law, Ukraine will respond in a civilized way,"Zelensky warned, without specifying the countermeasures to which Kiev may resort to protect its interests.

After learning about the ruling by the European Commission on Friday, Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said Warsaw would "extend the ban on Ukrainian grain. We won't listen to Berlin, von der Leyen… because it's in the interest of the Polish farmers."

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban announced a similar plan, saying he was preparing for "a serious fight in Brussels" over the grain issue.

Warsaw and Budapest have vigorously resisted deliveries of Ukrainian grain, despite having quite opposite views on the conflict between Moscow and Kiev. Poland has been one of the main backers of Ukraine in the EU, providing the country with weapons and insisting on increasingly harsh measures against Russia, while the Hungarian authorities have consistently criticized the bloc's sanction on Moscow as ineffective, and insist on a diplomatic solution to the crisis.
Editorial: You're not supporting Ukraine enough until the nuclear blast hits you in the face.



Great success!
nortex97
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We need to get petulant adult children out of our foreign policy/diplomat positions.





JJxvi
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Nazis!
Teslag
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Tom Cotton, ranger, bronze star as a leader of an infantry platoon in Iraq and Afghanistan. Guys like that just get it and know why Ukraine fights.
nortex97
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Yeah, they come to mind a bit nowadays.



nortex97
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Quote:

On April 10, as part of the Discord leaksstory, the Washington Post (4/10/23) reported that top secret documents showed that Ukraine's drive would fall "well short" of its objectives, due to equipment, ammunition and conscription problems. The document predicted "sustainment shortfalls" and only "modest territorial gains."

The Post additionally cited anonymous officials who claimed that the documents' conclusions were corroborated by a classified National Intelligence Council assessment, shown only to a select few in Congress. The Post spoke to a Ukrainian official who "did not dispute the revelations," and acknowledged that it was "partially true."

While the Post has yet to publish the documents in full, the leaks and the other sources clearly painted a picture of a potentially disastrous counteroffensive. Fear was so palpable that the Biden administration privately worried about how he could keep up support for the war when the widely hyped offensive sputtered. In the midst of this, Blinken continued to dismiss the idea of a ceasefire, opting instead to pursue further escalating the conflict.

Despite the importance of these facts, they were hardly reported on by the rest of corporate media, and dropped from subsequent war coverage. When the Post (6/14/23) published a long article citing Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin's cautious optimism about the campaign, it neglected to mention its earlier reporting about the government's privately gloomier assessments. The documents only started appearing again in the press after thousands were dead, and the campaign's failure undeniable.

In an honest press, excited comments from politicians and commentators would be published alongside reports about how even our highest-level officials did not believe that the counteroffensive would amount to much. Instead, anticipation was allowed to build while doubts were set to the side.
Quote:

Newsweek (8/16/23) reported on a Ukrainian leadership divided over how to handle the "underwhelming" counteroffensive. The Washington Post (8/17/23) reported that the US intelligence community assessed that the offensive would fail to fulfill its key objective of severing the land bridge between Russian-occupied eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

As the triumphalism ebbed, outlets began reporting on scenes that were almost certainly common before the spring push but had gone unpublished. One piece from the Post (8/10/23) outlined a "darken[ed] mood in Ukraine," in which the nation was "worn out." The piece acknowledged that "Ukrainian officials and their Western partners hyped up a coming counteroffensive," but there was "little visible progress."
The Wall Street Journal (8/1/23) published a devastating piece about the massive number of amputees returning home from the mine-laden battlefield. They reported that between 20,000 and 50,000 Ukrainians had lost one or more limbs as a result of the warnumbers that are comparable to those seen during World War I.

Rather than dwelling on the stalled campaign, the New York Times and other outlets focused on the drone war against Russia, even while acknowledging that the remote strikes were largely an exercise in public relations. The Times (8/25/23) declared that the strikes had "little significant damage to Russia's overall military might" and were primarily "a message for [Ukraine's] own people," citing US officials who noted that they "intended to demonstrate to the Ukrainian public that Kyiv can still strike back." Looking at the quantity of Times coverage (8/30/23, 8/30/23, 8/23/23, 8/22/23, 8/22/23, 8/21/23, 8/18/23), the drone strikes were apparently aimed at an increasingly war-weary US public as well.
Very good, lengthy piece documenting some of the propaganda/lies around the war this year in particular.
B-1 83
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When Tom Cotton is called a RINO you can pretty much discount anything else the deliverer of such a message has to say.
Being in TexAgs jail changes a man……..no, not really
nortex97
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B-1 83 said:

When Tom Cotton is called a RINO you can pretty much discount anything else the deliverer of such a message has to say.


I certainly don't think he is a rino, but he is fully on the war cheerleader side.
fka ftc
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nortex97 said:

B-1 83 said:

When Tom Cotton is called a RINO you can pretty much discount anything else the deliverer of such a message has to say.


I certainly don't think he is a rino, but he is fully on the war cheerleader side.
Amazing people can go through all that information and then say "I dismiss it all as no way is Tim Cotton a RINO".

Ukraine funding should be segregated out and voted up or down by house and senate. That would reflect the voice of the people or if it did not then the people would have a clear record of who supported war and who supported America First.
PlaneCrashGuy
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B-1 83 said:

When Tom Cotton is called a RINO you can pretty much discount anything else the deliverer of such a message has to say.


Do you have anything of substance to add? We're trying to clean up these childish zingers so we don't get locked again.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
YouBet
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This whole endeavor should create a new meme of "Why not all?".

  • Ukraine is the fulcrum for all of the current upheaval in globalism.
  • It serves as a profit center and money laundering black hole for our government and its corporate cronies.
  • The Biden Crime Family has been a huge benefactor of Ukraine's historical culture of corruption and overlap with Russia.
  • This war represents revenge porn for Gen X'ers and Boomers who grew up with the Cold War.
  • Ukraine has a right to defend itself against an aggressor.
  • Ukraine has become a testing ground for updating military strategy and tactics at the detriment of local human life and resources.
  • Putin is evil.
  • Putin is doing this because his country is dying and he needs resources.
  • There is a legitimate argument that the West forced the issue by boxing in Russia as confirmed by the NATO Gen Sec this week.
  • Biden's mealy mouth comments early on emboldened Putin to invade.
  • Funding another country's sovereignty in a separate hemisphere while openly supporting the destruction of our own sovereignty is galling, criminal, unethical, and traitorous.

All of these things are true regardless of your feelings about them or the right or wrong of it.
YouBet
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fka ftc said:

nortex97 said:

B-1 83 said:

When Tom Cotton is called a RINO you can pretty much discount anything else the deliverer of such a message has to say.


I certainly don't think he is a rino, but he is fully on the war cheerleader side.
Amazing people can go through all that information and then say "I dismiss it all as no way is Tim Cotton a RINO".

Ukraine funding should be segregated out and voted up or down by house and senate. That would reflect the voice of the people or if it did not then the people would have a clear record of who supported war and who supported America First.
The fact that they won't do this tells you what you need to know.
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