JJxvi said:

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And all of that is even if you take on its face the idea that Russia is even doing any of this because of diplomatic factors, and discount completely the possibility that their primary goal is, and has been, territorial gain.

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Teslag said:

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fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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I think everyone on that thread would prefer Russia to pack up, go home, and end the war that they alone started if it meant never seeing another Russian die in Ukraine.

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I don't get that impression when derogatory terms like "orcs" are used repetitively along with comments like "stacking corpses".

I would hope that this thread remains free of such disgusting disregard for human life.

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As long as they are invading a sovereign nation and purposely targeting civilians as they have been then yes the Russian invaders' deaths should be celebrated, just like any enemy of the US should be.

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I am not going to celebrate the deaths of conscripted soldiers. Sorry.

But maybe you enjoyed watching Somalians drag bodies of marines through the streets. Did you cheer for the Somalians whilst watching Blackhawk Down? You seem to be the sort who would. I mean, it was Americans invading another country, the sovereign African nation of Somalia, but those details seem irrelevant as the aggressor is always bad. Amiright?!?

Now they are conscripts? Nortex has been telling us for weeks that they no longer need conscripts, their recruiting is fantastic, and they are the highest paid military in the world.


So which is it?

And yes, enemy deaths good. American deaths bad. And I won't apologize for that. I saw in Syria what Russians do to civilians so they can all get ****ed for all I care.

Teslag said:

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Now they are conscripts? Nortex has been telling us for weeks that they no longer need conscripts, their recruiting is fantastic, and they are the highest paid military in the world.


So which is it?

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Whether they are conscripted or not really does not matter I guess. They are fighting under orders from their commander and for their country, so no different than the Americans in Somalia.

Just own it, you like seeing certain humans die over others based on your pious perch in the US.

To me, that is disgusting and dishonorable and patently immature.

I thought I was pretty clear about "owning it"? Every Russian thug in Ukraine should die. That's how wars are won and invaders are repelled.

You think our grandparents cared about nazi troop deaths? Or cried for the Japanese in Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

And to compare this to Somalia might be laughably absurd.

fka ftc said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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"The war they (russia) alone started" damn Howard Zinn can't even do revisionist history as good as Teslag

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Did the US start a war with Japan, or did they start one with us?

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So we are boiling down international policy to grade school "but but but, he started it first!!!"?

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Well, did we? Are you going to lay WWII and all the dead Japanese at our feet because of our economic policies like you and others keep doing here?

ABATTBQ11 said:

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fka ftc said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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"The war they (russia) alone started" damn Howard Zinn can't even do revisionist history as good as Teslag

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Did the US start a war with Japan, or did they start one with us?

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So we are boiling down international policy to grade school "but but but, he started it first!!!"?

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Well, did we? Are you going to lay WWII and all the dead Japanese at our feet because of our economic policies like you and others keep doing here?

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For the record, I did not bring WWII and the Japanese into this discussion, you did. And I think I summed up the correlation quite nicely.

So not sure what you mean by "economic policies like YOU and others keep doing here"...

You did, no point trying to discuss things logically with some.

Rather than seeking to understand 'this all started at this moment in history and everything else concurrent/before can and should be ignored' the operative question one might ask would be 'is there any reasonable basis to think the outcome of this in 50 years would read something like 'and because the United States spent a trillion dollars, Russia never was able to hold on to the Donbas and Ukraine became a free and prosperous economy/people ever since?"

Ukraine's demographics, and history, before the war foreclosed they had a plausible expectation/hope they could become "South Korea," in essence. To hold otherwise, again, would require willful ignorance.

Donbas no. Once lines are negotiated and NATO has a permanent presence then those lines are etched in stone.

BREAKING:

Incoming reports of Kadyrov being in a coma after his health suddenly deteriorated.

Ukraine's intelligence service GUR confirms the reports pic.twitter.com/jpnU1hsTTB

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) September 15, 2023

Well…bye.

This is another I certainly won't cry about.

fka ftc said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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fka ftc said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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"The war they (russia) alone started" damn Howard Zinn can't even do revisionist history as good as Teslag

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Did the US start a war with Japan, or did they start one with us?

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So we are boiling down international policy to grade school "but but but, he started it first!!!"?

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Well, did we? Are you going to lay WWII and all the dead Japanese at our feet because of our economic policies like you and others keep doing here?

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For the record, I did not bring WWII and the Japanese into this discussion, you did. And I think I summed up the correlation quite nicely.

So not sure what you mean by "economic policies like YOU and others keep doing here"...

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No, but you and others keep trying to make this claim that this conflict is somehow not Russia's doing, despite the fact they're the ones who launched an invasion of another country, because Ukraine was slipping out of their sphere of influence because of NATO, US, and European policy.

So it's a fair question on whether we're responsible for WWII (especially the Pacific) and the millions of dead Japanese and eventually Germans because Japan only attached is and drew us into the war because of our embargos against their war efforts.

No, you didn't sum up the correlation quite nicely. You avoided the question. Are we the ones responsible for starting the war because of our policies, or are the Japanese at fault because they're the ones who launched a surprise air attack and assaults against American positions and vessels across the south Pacific?

For all your talk about human life, should we be crying rivers over the millions of Japs and krauts we killed and start teaching that we were really the bad guys because we didn't bend over in appeasement?

nortex97 said:

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BREAKING:

Incoming reports of Kadyrov being in a coma after his health suddenly deteriorated.

Ukraine's intelligence service GUR confirms the reports pic.twitter.com/jpnU1hsTTB

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) September 15, 2023

Well…bye.

This is another I certainly won't cry about.

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Fka will be here any second to tell you how cold and heartless you are for celebrating death

ABATTBQ11 said:

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For all your talk about human life, should we be crying rivers over the millions of Japs and krauts we killed and start teaching that we were really the bad guys because we didn't bend over in appeasement?

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Not getting into the strawman you are working to build regarding WWII. No one has excused Russia as the aggressor. I and others have put forth attempts to at least understand the Russian perspective - understanding where the opposition is coming from is simply wise if not necessary. But it should not be confused with defense or support of the Russian aggression.

I think dancing on the graves of the grunt soldiers involved in WWII seems a bit callous to me, frankly subhuman. They guys in charge? Dance away on their graves and celebrate their deaths. But I think it was then and it is now in poor taste to talk about "stacking corpses". That may make for good movie lines and appropriate for the guys in the battlefield, but for the Internet keyboard "warriors" its a bit much.

But you and Teslag celebrate it. Just know others are not going to high five you whilst you dance and gloat.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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nortex97 said:

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BREAKING:

Incoming reports of Kadyrov being in a coma after his health suddenly deteriorated.

Ukraine's intelligence service GUR confirms the reports pic.twitter.com/jpnU1hsTTB

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) September 15, 2023

Well…bye.

This is another I certainly won't cry about.

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Fka will be here any second to tell you how cold and heartless you are for celebrating death

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Or you could wait until I actually replied and realize how little you understand about me and what I previously posted.

There is a difference in saying you will not cry over the death / illness of someone who was in a decision making role and that of a guy on the front line doing his JOB.

We have been told now by nortex that those guys on the ground for Russia want to be there, are highly paid, and happy

So those soldiers can burn in hell

Quote:

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No one has excused Russia as the aggressor.

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Anyone that doesn't place 100% of the blame at Russians feet is quite literally guilty of doing just this

A lot of hilarity here.

nortex97 said:

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A lot of hilarity here.

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Its gone so off rails they no longer make any sense. Mischaracterize and in many cases flatout lie about what other people say, build ridiculous strawmans, then cry is someone dares call them out.

fka ftc said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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nortex97 said:

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BREAKING:

Incoming reports of Kadyrov being in a coma after his health suddenly deteriorated.

Ukraine's intelligence service GUR confirms the reports pic.twitter.com/jpnU1hsTTB

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) September 15, 2023

Well…bye.

This is another I certainly won't cry about.

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Fka will be here any second to tell you how cold and heartless you are for celebrating death

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Or you could wait until I actually replied and realize how little you understand about me and what I previously posted.

There is a difference in saying you will not cry over the death / illness of someone who was in a decision making role and that of a guy on the front line doing his JOB.

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Oh, ok. So it's ok to celebrate the guy giving the orders dying, but all the guys who mindlessly carry out the rape, murder, and pillaging are just blameless pawns. Got it.

That's fine for you, I guess. The rest of us aren't going to be upset that guys who could a) just surrender instead of taking part in an invasion, b) flee before getting conscripted, or c) shoot the guys giving orders did none of those things and instead went on invading another country and raping, murdering, and pillaging along the way. Unlike you, some of us are of the opinion that they had a choice, they made their choice, and dying for the likes of kadyrov and putin is the just consequence for that choice.

fka ftc said:

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nortex97 said:

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A lot of hilarity here.

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Its gone so off rails they no longer make any sense. Mischaracterize and in many cases flatout lie about what other people say, build ridiculous strawmans, then cry is someone dares call them out.

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Oh, the iron e...

ABATTBQ11 said:

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fka ftc said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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nortex97 said:

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BREAKING:

Incoming reports of Kadyrov being in a coma after his health suddenly deteriorated.

Ukraine's intelligence service GUR confirms the reports pic.twitter.com/jpnU1hsTTB

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) September 15, 2023

Well…bye.

This is another I certainly won't cry about.

---

Fka will be here any second to tell you how cold and heartless you are for celebrating death

---

Or you could wait until I actually replied and realize how little you understand about me and what I previously posted.

There is a difference in saying you will not cry over the death / illness of someone who was in a decision making role and that of a guy on the front line doing his JOB.

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Oh, ok. So it's ok to celebrate the guy giving the orders dying, but all the guys who mindlessly carry out the rape, murder, and pillaging are just blameless pawns. Got it.

That's fine for you, I guess. The rest of us aren't going to be upset that guys who could a) just surrender instead of taking part in an invasion, b) flee before getting conscripted, or c) shoot the guys giving orders did none of those things and instead went on invading another country and raping, murdering, and pillaging along the way. Unlike you, some of us are of the opinion that they had a choice, they made their choice, and dying for the likes of kadyrov and putin is the just consequence for that choice.

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Assume Bowe Bergdahl must be some kind of hero in your world then. Makes sense. Own it bruh. Its an interesting position to take but have no shame and own it.

No, he's not, because he wasn't asked to go murder civilians or pillage the countryside, but nice attempt at false equivalence.

I guess the guys who pulled people into the streets in Bucha and shot them are your heroes. I mean they're just regular Joes following orders and all. We should really pity them. It's a weird position to take, but you do you.

Pumpkinhead said:

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The war is horrible. If the U.S. stopped sending military aid, I don't think that would stop the fighting and dying (ie, Ukraine would simply surrender, violence and aggression would stop, Russia would stop aggression and not try to occupy even more of the country like Odessa etc).

So I don't buy into the 'it's our fault this is happening' argument and I think calling people who support Ukraine's defense 'war mongers/lovers' is just as insulting as calling people who disagree 'Russia propagandists'.

Someone can hate the war but support Ukraine's defense. I am one of those and I understand that other Americans disagree but that is a disagreement. Not a morality differentiator.

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You're as much as a centrist here as you are even handed on the basketball board, not that I think the compliment coming from me will do you any favors.

Just a tip of the cap.

It's interesting that on this thread even folks I wholly disagree with otherwise on essentially all matters involving politics I can respect their take here, when serious. In some sense that's a nice shift of pace for the board, perhaps toward comity.

⚡️🇭🇺🇺🇦 Viktor Orbán:

“Ukrainian grain has long been grown on lands owned by American companies. The EU is simply not ready to take the side of member countries and Europeans because it defends completely different interests, including in relation to this grain - not European,… pic.twitter.com/f3JllBkrlY

— What the media hides. (@narrative_hole) September 15, 2023

Turkey's role here has always intrigued me as…pivotal through the centuries, whoever ran the place or what is today (nominally at least) the country of Ukraine.

Sick man of Europe or longest surviving bit of the Roman Empire, either way, they seem estranged from both sides.

In any case, no regrets…

The Grayzone's @cosgrove_iv asks @StateDeptSpox about NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg's recent comments revealing that he knew expansion could lead to war with Russia, but pressed ahead anyway

Despite the horrific human toll of the war, the State Dept's Matt Miller says NATO did… pic.twitter.com/Jw7DvsddhI

— The Grayzone (@TheGrayzoneNews) September 15, 2023

This war just needs to end. Neither human, nor American political/strategic interests are served by this **** show of suffering and economic disasters.

Well, according to Russian general Andrey Mordvichev, Russia is in it for the long haul and wants Eastern Europe.

Quote:

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Asked about the war's expected duration, he said the quiet part out loud: There is still "plenty of time."

According to him, "If we are talking about Eastern Europe, which we will have to, of course then it will be longer."

In other words, the Kremlin is in the conflict for the long haul.

Not only it is committed, as Russian President Vladimir Putin himself stated on numerous occasions, to the destruction of Ukraine's statehood, but its ambitions extend beyond Ukraine, encompassing Moldova and Georgia as well as our NATO allies in the Baltic states and Poland.

None of this is news to Eastern Europeans.

As the late former president of Poland Lech Kaczynski noted in 2008, after Russia attacked Georgia, "Today Georgia, tomorrow Ukraine, the Baltic States the day after tomorrow, and then perhaps the time will come for my country, Poland."

America's self-styled realists who believe a compromise can be reached with Putin perhaps peace in exchange for some territory and promise of Ukraine's neutrality have a hopelessly unrealistic, nave understanding of the Kremlin's thinking.

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So I guess this will be over when Russia finally gets its head caved in somewhere, because they have no real intention of stopping.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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fka ftc said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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nortex97 said:

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BREAKING:

Incoming reports of Kadyrov being in a coma after his health suddenly deteriorated.

Ukraine's intelligence service GUR confirms the reports pic.twitter.com/jpnU1hsTTB

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) September 15, 2023

Well…bye.

This is another I certainly won't cry about.

---

Fka will be here any second to tell you how cold and heartless you are for celebrating death

---

Or you could wait until I actually replied and realize how little you understand about me and what I previously posted.

There is a difference in saying you will not cry over the death / illness of someone who was in a decision making role and that of a guy on the front line doing his JOB.

---

Oh, ok. So it's ok to celebrate the guy giving the orders dying, but all the guys who mindlessly carry out the rape, murder, and pillaging are just blameless pawns. Got it.

That's fine for you, I guess. The rest of us aren't going to be upset that guys who could a) just surrender instead of taking part in an invasion, b) flee before getting conscripted, or c) shoot the guys giving orders did none of those things and instead went on invading another country and raping, murdering, and pillaging along the way. Unlike you, some of us are of the opinion that they had a choice, they made their choice, and dying for the likes of kadyrov and putin is the just consequence for that choice.

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Cool. Just to be clear:

your official position is that soldiers and conscripts forcibly conscripted following orders in an immoral and illegal invasion of a soveirgn nation are to be blamed for their participation in said invasion and their deaths celebrated?

ABATTBQ11 said:

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No, he's not, because he wasn't asked to go murder civilians or pillage the countryside, but nice attempt at false equivalence.

I guess the guys who pulled people into the streets in Bucha and shot them are your heroes. I mean they're just regular Joes following orders and all. We should really pity them. It's a weird position to take, but you do you.

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Incredible strawman with that one. Have you read once on this thread or any others for that matter where I champion the killing of any soldiers? Or that I condone and support militias, jihadists, terrorists or other militant groups?

I have no idea if the guys in Somalia were under orders to do what they did. Regardless, I do not forgive nor excuse their behavior.

My position is that it is inappropriate to cheer on "stacking corpses" regardless of which "side" of the Russia / Ukraine conflict you are on. But if we are taking sides, I side with out involvement from a money, weaponry and human standpoint is NOT in our best interests and the resources could be better deployed here domestically.

But you and others have a hard time with that. Just seem obsessed with killing "orcs" like this is some video game from the 1980's. I find that behavior and attitude... disgusting.

10thYrSr said:

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GAC06 said:

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Except when they spent months and tens of thousands of soldiers capturing the ruins of Bakhmut. They really wanted that for some reason.

Then again, the force that was capable of that offensive later mutinied and is gone now.

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10,000 an active army of 250k is a drop in the bucket. Also, they are able to rotate soldiers out. Ukraine has no such ability. Fight or die for Ukraine. Fight, rest, return for Russia. Which army would you want to be a part of?

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Fight, rest, return to Russia.

(In a body bag or as part of a mutiny)

russia will no longer rotate troops home..... hat will help moral in russia

"❗️Mobilized people will not return home until the end of the Northern Military District, there will be no rotation - Kartapolov.

The mobilized Russians will leave the combat zone after the end of the…

— david D. (@secretsqrl123) September 15, 2023

Ags4DaWin said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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fka ftc said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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nortex97 said:

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BREAKING:

Incoming reports of Kadyrov being in a coma after his health suddenly deteriorated.

Ukraine's intelligence service GUR confirms the reports pic.twitter.com/jpnU1hsTTB

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) September 15, 2023

Well…bye.

This is another I certainly won't cry about.

---

Fka will be here any second to tell you how cold and heartless you are for celebrating death

---

Or you could wait until I actually replied and realize how little you understand about me and what I previously posted.

There is a difference in saying you will not cry over the death / illness of someone who was in a decision making role and that of a guy on the front line doing his JOB.

---

Oh, ok. So it's ok to celebrate the guy giving the orders dying, but all the guys who mindlessly carry out the rape, murder, and pillaging are just blameless pawns. Got it.

That's fine for you, I guess. The rest of us aren't going to be upset that guys who could a) just surrender instead of taking part in an invasion, b) flee before getting conscripted, or c) shoot the guys giving orders did none of those things and instead went on invading another country and raping, murdering, and pillaging along the way. Unlike you, some of us are of the opinion that they had a choice, they made their choice, and dying for the likes of kadyrov and putin is the just consequence for that choice.

---

Cool. Just to be clear:

your official position is that soldiers and conscripts forcibly conscripted following orders in an immoral and illegal invasion of a soveirgn nation are to be blamed for their participation war crimes like the murdering, rape, and torturing of civilians and their participation in organized looting and theft in said invasion and their deaths celebrated?

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FIFY

They know what they're doing and what their efforts are supporting. They can flee their country. They can desert. They can surrender. One of their pilots recently did exactly that with a helicopter because he knew what they were doing was wrong. They can shoot their officers. They have options beyond, "Well, I'm conscripted. Guess I'd better go kill these guys in this country we invaded for no reason. What else am I gonna do?"

If one person gives orders, and 100 follow, I blame the 100 just as much because they collectively chose to listen to the one. Russian conscripts and enlisted men far outnumber and outgun their officers, and they even farther outnumber their senior officers and leaders. If they truly didn't want to be there, they certainly have the means to resist.



If you want to disagree, let's look at a similar situation with corruption in the FBI. Do you think all of the lower level people who follow along, just do what they're told, and watch weaponization happen or actively participate are completely blameless? After all, they're just doing their jobs and following orders. It's not like they could refuse, quit, go to Congress, or literally anything else besides go along with harassing progressive political opponents and papering over the likes of Hunter Biden.

The Ukrainians are the ones who have termed them orcs for everything they've done in Ukraine, not anyone here. People champion "stacking bodies" because the Russians are invaders without provocation. It's no different than saying good riddance when a criminal breaking into a house gets acute lead poisoning from the owners.

Just an ugly business, propaganda videos aside. Not saying by any means we have a Julius Caesar (or napoleon vs. italian/Austrians) on any side, but we are to the point of seeing more treason and subterfuge within the territory of Ukraine.

I think the folks on the ground are…tired of this crap, and it won't play out in some linear fashion.

Considering Prigozhin actively mutinied and Kadyrov might have been murdered (or at least an attempt made), I think treason and subterfuge are just a little more likely on the Russian side.