Oryx, like the NYT, is a mouthpiece of Ukrainian/DoD etc. propaganda. Again, the significant figure really is…the missiles, drones, ammo, and artillery. I am not going to do a long back and forth with you over it (I know the UK fan boy club loves to debate tanks in all respects), but no, the Russians aren't losing 20+ tanks a month, either.

Interestingly, some now I see do claim the Ukrainians used SU-24's to launch storm shadows in the 'big win' damaging a landing ship (likely destroyed) and sub.

Quote:

---

From all I've read, 6 planes with 12 SS left Ukr mainland. They flew towards Crimea, all releasing simultaneously at the radar horizon view point for Sebastopol -- in other words the planes weren't seen.
RF air defenses downed 10 out of 12. So, AD was in fact sufficient.

---

Always whining Kiev:

⚡️Kiev sues Western companies for failing to deliver military equipment

This is reported by the Newsweek news magazine.

It is not specified which companies failed to deliver military equipment. However, the Polish Alfa company is mentioned.

Even Western "aid" doesn't last… pic.twitter.com/uIwe4LkRRl

— Tony (@Cyberspec1) September 14, 2023

Oryx uses pesky things like documentation and evidence. That's not as fun as taking the Russians at their word I guess.

Also, hilarious take that their air defense was "sufficient". Sufficient to lose two ships and potentially the use of their dry docks in their prized port. Great job, start writing the awards.

published satellite imagery indicates the sub is a burned out hulk (likely destroyed) and the debris will have to be cleared to regain the use of the dry dock.

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates

Get Off My Lawn said:

---

I thought this thread was supposed to be a place for non-warhawks to discuss the actual merits of involvement. But there's just as much gleeful "Slava Meatgrinder!" posting on here now a days as there is on the tactical update thread.

---

The other thread mainly to me comprises a lot of cheerleading. I don't even check on it but around once or twice a week for a chuckle.

I admit to falling for some of the trolling here and respond for (my own) entertainment too often. Apologies.

Politically speaking the EU declining to return/extradite fodder is a big deal. I'm waiting to see if there is a shift as well in the French positions as they are losing so much in their African 'situation' right now. If they decide they want to/need Russian uranium it could be 'interesting.'

The other politics related stuff about being involved is whether the GOP goes ahead and appropriates all the money that Biden and Zelensky are requesting for Ukraine (25 billion more this calendar year, freedom caucus says they won't do it). I find that unlikely but there will be 'shut down' politics involved (Biden also helpfully tried to delete all funding for our border in his request).

Here's a very good piece on Russian history in the context of this war/looking ahead.

Like the Russian army, the Black Sea fleet is also getting stronger

nortex97 said:

---

Oryx, like the NYT, is a mouthpiece of Ukrainian/DoD etc. propaganda. Again, the significant figure really is…the missiles, drones, ammo, and artillery. I am not going to do a long back and forth with you over it (I know the UK fan boy club loves to debate tanks in all respects), but no, the Russians aren't losing 20+ tanks a month, either.

Interestingly, some now I see do claim the Ukrainians used SU-24's to launch storm shadows in the 'big win' damaging a landing ship (likely destroyed) and sub.

Quote:

---

From all I've read, 6 planes with 12 SS left Ukr mainland. They flew towards Crimea, all releasing simultaneously at the radar horizon view point for Sebastopol -- in other words the planes weren't seen.
RF air defenses downed 10 out of 12. So, AD was in fact sufficient.

---

Always whining Kiev:

⚡️Kiev sues Western companies for failing to deliver military equipment

This is reported by the Newsweek news magazine.

It is not specified which companies failed to deliver military equipment. However, the Polish Alfa company is mentioned.

Even Western "aid" doesn't last… pic.twitter.com/uIwe4LkRRl

— Tony (@Cyberspec1) September 14, 2023

---

Yes, how dare they sue companies who failed to deliver on items that were paid for. Here's the actual article instead of a screenshot carefully crafted to trick people into being outraged.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-sues-western-companies-failing-deliver-military-equipment-1826312?amp=1

Quote:

---

The Ukrainian government has taken legal action against at least two Western military firms that have failed to fulfill equipment contracts, or offer a refund of fees paid by Kyiv to secure the deals, Newsweek can reveal.

---

The article touches on the real reason for the distraction/lawsuits in the last sentence:

Quote:

---

Reznikov became embroiled in a major corruption scandal last year related to an inflated procurement contract for military rations, though he was not personally responsible for the deal.

---

Corruption, in Kiev? Unpossible. Thx for posting.

Let's talk about that vaunted Uke Navy since we have a Vince Young telestration of the Russian one.

https://www.npr.org/2023/07/28/1190544651/ukraine-rebuild-navy-destroyed-by-russia

Here is their current warship:


They scuttled this one at start of conflict so them mean Rooskies wouldn't take their boat:

nortex97 said:

---

The article touches on the real reason for the distraction/lawsuits in the last sentence:

Quote:

---

Reznikov became embroiled in a major corruption scandal last year related to an inflated procurement contract for military rations, though he was not personally responsible for the deal.

---

Corruption, in Kiev? Unpossible. Thx for posting.

---

Sure. Seems unrelated to the suit itself which sounds like a pretty standard breach of contract.

They got some fast attack boats like the seals use I think too. (Rigid hull Inflatable type?). I think I saw in some appropriations/aid stuff they got at least a half dozen of some of those.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16904/the-marine-corps-wants-to-craft-a-fleet-of-1000-itty-bitty-boats

For the US, the solution needs to include small submersibles, semisubmersibles. Sending a bunch of marines ashore in RHIBs seems like a poor idea at scale.

#UkraineRussianWar
Ukrainians announced a mass evacuation of the population along the entire bank of the Dnieper. pic.twitter.com/1gBMR2g5pw

— Military Summary (@MilitarySummary) September 15, 2023

They might be considering a river landing/attack, and/or using something else dangerous along the river/retreating (or they might be kicking the civilians out for snitching to the Russians about where they are.)

‼️ 🇺🇦 The wife of a Ukrainian paratrooper from the elite 77th Airborne Brigade says that they’re hiding what is happening to their relatives

Turns out her husband was left to rot after he lost his life, and several others were captured, which the families found out only because… pic.twitter.com/GrgrKktoP2

— What the media hides. (@narrative_hole) September 14, 2023

Zelensky tells a reporter that the money embezzled by his government officials wasn't Western money but Ukrainian money.

"So it doesn't matter" pic.twitter.com/WUsIwJBqYO

— Chay Bowes (@BowesChay) September 14, 2023

A Ukrainian soldier destroyed the western media lies about what's happening on the front in a scathing video. He explains that in fact the Russian military is not poorly trained, stupid, pigs etc. He explains that in fact it is the Russians that take positions at will, with… pic.twitter.com/wcDtlJrVMv

— Noctis Draven (@DravenNoctis) September 14, 2023

Remember another time we had to go kick a bad man out/get him killed so a people could be free, and Democrats especially claimed all the credit/glory/moral high ground?

No, it's not "everyone's fault", Washington Post.

Libya was the wealthiest country in Africa with the highest UN Human Development Index on the continent (see in 2010 👇).

NATO intervened, bombed the place during 8 months, Hillary said "We came. We saw. He died" after… pic.twitter.com/iPC6V6Mjf0

— Arnaud Bertrand (@RnaudBertrand) September 15, 2023

Yeah, that turned out well.

Nothing screams "we are winning" more than showcasing a body armor for women on the backdrop of Saint Olga defiled in a bullet proof vest. https://t.co/Ner2J9GcvT

— Olga Bazova (@OlgaBazova) September 14, 2023

Their military is also being battle hardened. Fighting wars is like boxing (or anything else), you get better with in-the-ring experience. Russia’s military performance has continued to improve throughout the war as theyve learned and adapted, for this reason (defending is also…

— Lyall Taylor (@LT3000Lyall) September 14, 2023

Ukraine's counteroffensive has again slowed to a crawl. Things could change, but after 3.5 months of assaults, we are still talking about a few metres gained around Robotyne. Not exactly decisive gains. https://t.co/2X0cDOlVgc

— Neil Hauer (@NeilPHauer) September 14, 2023

Drone images from Sept. 6 show destroyed village of Andriivka, retaken by Ukrainian forces today, located just below occupied Bakhmut. Once home to ~40 homes surrounded by fields & adjacent to railway. I did several bicycle rides through there back in the day. 📸 @EMaloletka / AP pic.twitter.com/ce8fd6oCfb

— Christopher Miller (@ChristopherJM) September 15, 2023

I'm astounded some claim this is 'winning' and 'good.'

The younger brother visits his older sibling…
He comes here often, sits on the pavement, lowers his head to his knees & cries silently.

19yo Yehor Mukha, call sign “Green”, served in the Da Vinci Wolves Battalion, died in combat at Khromovo, Donetsk Obl

📷Vadym Prokopchuk pic.twitter.com/BKoNXaVjfK

— Euromaidan Press (@EuromaidanPress) September 15, 2023

I don't think anyone is claiming what is happening is "winning and good". As Sherman said "War is hell". I do think people see the will of the Ukrainian people to fight against an occupier that has a massive advantage from a population and resources perspective as brave and admirable . Most thought this war would be over in the first 2 days, yet hear we are at essentially a stalemate a year and a half later.

Heisenberg01 said:

---

I don't think anyone is claiming what is happening is "winning and good". As Sherman said "War is hell". I do think people see the will of the Ukrainian people to fight against an occupier that has a massive advantage from a population and resources perspective as brave and admirable . Most thought this war would be over in the first 2 days, yet hear we are at essentially a stalemate a year and a half later.

---

I won't quote the excitement and joy on another thread, and simply note I disagree.

What some expected to see/read about 18 months ago is irrelevant.

The war is horrible. If the U.S. stopped sending military aid, I don't think that would stop the fighting and dying (ie, Ukraine would simply surrender, violence and aggression would stop, Russia would stop aggression and not try to occupy even more of the country like Odessa etc).

So I don't buy into the 'it's our fault this is happening' argument and I think calling people who support Ukraine's defense 'war mongers/lovers' is just as insulting as calling people who disagree 'Russia propagandists'.

Someone can hate the war but support Ukraine's defense. I am one of those and I understand that other Americans disagree but that is a disagreement. Not a morality differentiator.

Ya I've always been flabbergasted at the notion that you are a "war cheerleader" for not believing a nation should just lie down and be occupied and not fight back. And then make every excuse imaginable to not blame the country that actually started the war.

I'm always interested to see video in your updates of/from soldiers on the front line because that is a primary source. Can't get more direct than hearing it straight from the horses mouth.

Lol. "A Ukrainian soldier" is not a primary source. Thats a dude in a beret and fatigues and ear pods in front of a background of cypress trees. A primary source has a name and credentials. Thats before you get to the fact that the vast majority of people watching that video have no idea what language he's speaking much less whether or not the subtitles are accurate. I mean, i presume they are, but the viewers dont know, I sure as hell dont know. And nobody knows who exactly that is so its not a source that carries any factual weight, its just some random information that might be right or might be wrong.

https://t.co/qfTWkx892m pic.twitter.com/ZYz3ZvOJv7

— The Right To Bear Memes (@grandoldmemes) September 14, 2023

Oh boy, we're gonna get more finger pointing next week from the capitol (I assume the house chamber) from the green sweatsuit little guy, complaining he isn't being given enough stuff/money fast enough. The weird thing is I think at this point he's such a lightning rod for criticism about his entitled attitude I think it decreases the odds they get most of what they are asking for from the House.

Joe Biden and Blinken fixed all that corruption stuff in Ukraine 8 years ago I thought.

In 2015, then-Deputy Secretary of State Antony Blinken praised the Ukrainian government and Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin for successfully combating corruption.

But, then-VP Joe Biden corruptly changed the United States policy towards Ukraine along with the assessment of… pic.twitter.com/gHqKRF4iOr

— Rep. Elise Stefanik (@RepStefanik) September 14, 2023

Do she have an OnlyFans account? Asking for a friend...

‼️ 🇺🇦 The wife of a Ukrainian paratrooper from the elite 77th Airborne Brigade says that they’re hiding what is happening to their relatives

Turns out her husband was left to rot after he lost his life, and several others were captured, which the families found out only because… pic.twitter.com/GrgrKktoP2

— What the media hides. (@narrative_hole) September 14, 2023

Agree with your comment on the "tactics" thread regarding celebrating Uke victories gleefully whilst making comments about spilling the blood of "orcs" and stacking Russian corpses as such, then run over to this thread and say that no one is celebrating, how can one not blindly give all our money to Ukraine, how one can deny Ukraine its most sovereign status, and make accusations that people are defending Russian aggression (and constantly pointing to one starried post from months ago).

As others have said and I have said before, appreciate you providing information to this thread and ignoring the noise that follows those posts.

I think everyone on that thread would prefer Russia to pack up, go home, and end the war that they alone started if it meant never seeing another Russian die in Ukraine.

Teslag said:

---

I think everyone on that thread would prefer Russia to pack up, go home, and end the war that they alone started if it meant never seeing another Russian die in Ukraine.

---

I don't get that impression when derogatory terms like "orcs" are used repetitively along with comments like "stacking corpses".

I would hope that this thread remains free of such disgusting disregard for human life.

"The war they (russia) alone started" damn Howard Zinn can't even do revisionist history as good as Teslag

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

"The war they (russia) alone started" damn Howard Zinn can't even do revisionist history as good as Teslag

---

Did the US start a war with Japan, or did they start one with us?

That is pretty funny.

Russia responds to terroristic threats by American-Ukraine spokes-trans person: (this is why the mentally ill shouldn't be 'spokes women')

Quote:

---

Threats aimed at Russian journalists by an American transgenger who has been appointed as a Ukrainian military spokesperson will be referred to international organizations as an example of the terrorist nature of the Kiev regime, Moscow's Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova has said.

On Wednesday, Sarah Ashton-Cirillo issued a threat to kill Russian "propagandists" and claimed that "next week, the teeth of the Russian devils will gnash even harder, and their rabid mouths will foam in uncontrollable frenzy as the world will see a favorite Kremlin propagandist pay for their crimes."

"Russia's war criminal propagandists will all be hunted down, and justice will be served as we in Ukraine are led on this mission by faith in God, liberty and complete liberation," the transgender military spokesperson pledged.

"A zombie apocalypse," Zakharova wrote in response to the threat. "We will be sending this further evidence of the terrorist nature of the Kiev regime and its sponsorship by Washington to all international organizations and NGOs," she said.

The first deputy of the Russian State Duma's culture committee, Elena Drapenko, claimed Ashton-Cirillo's words were within the logic of the "terrorists and fascists" in Kiev and supported Zakharova's suggestion that the threat be referred to international institutions.

"There are international conventions, there are obligations that Ukraine has assumed. We must demand that they be fulfilled," Drapenko said.

The head of Russia's Human Rights Council, Valery Fadeev, has also stated that he would contact the Investigative Committee and the Federal Security Service (FSB) to investigate the threats in light of the "sad experience" of previous assassination attempts on Russian journalists and public opinion leaders.
Investigative Committee chairman Alexander Bastrykin has confirmed that he has already instructed his service to investigate and provide a legal assessment of Ashton-Cirillo's statements.

---

Everyone who pointed this out at the very beginning was told they were just repeating "Putin's playbook."

Now the NATO chief himself is quoting "Putin playbook." https://t.co/8dofVWkwmj

— Chris Rossini (@ChrisRossini) September 12, 2023

What in the world are we doing in Ukraine, is my question.

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

"The war they (russia) alone started" damn Howard Zinn can't even do revisionist history as good as Teslag

---

Did the US start a war with Japan, or did they start one with us?

---

So we are boiling down international policy to grade school "but but but, he started it first!!!"?

fka ftc said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

"The war they (russia) alone started" damn Howard Zinn can't even do revisionist history as good as Teslag

---

Did the US start a war with Japan, or did they start one with us?

---

So we are boiling down international policy to grade school "but but but, he started it first!!!"?

---

Apparently so

nortex97 said:

---

That is pretty funny.

Russia responds to terroristic threats by American-Ukraine spokes-trans person: (this is why the mentally ill shouldn't be 'spokes women')

Quote:

---

Threats aimed at Russian journalists by an American transgenger who has been appointed as a Ukrainian military spokesperson will be referred to international organizations as an example of the terrorist nature of the Kiev regime, Moscow's Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova has said.

On Wednesday, Sarah Ashton-Cirillo issued a threat to kill Russian "propagandists" and claimed that "next week, the teeth of the Russian devils will gnash even harder, and their rabid mouths will foam in uncontrollable frenzy as the world will see a favorite Kremlin propagandist pay for their crimes."

"Russia's war criminal propagandists will all be hunted down, and justice will be served as we in Ukraine are led on this mission by faith in God, liberty and complete liberation," the transgender military spokesperson pledged.

"A zombie apocalypse," Zakharova wrote in response to the threat. "We will be sending this further evidence of the terrorist nature of the Kiev regime and its sponsorship by Washington to all international organizations and NGOs," she said.

The first deputy of the Russian State Duma's culture committee, Elena Drapenko, claimed Ashton-Cirillo's words were within the logic of the "terrorists and fascists" in Kiev and supported Zakharova's suggestion that the threat be referred to international institutions.

"There are international conventions, there are obligations that Ukraine has assumed. We must demand that they be fulfilled," Drapenko said.

The head of Russia's Human Rights Council, Valery Fadeev, has also stated that he would contact the Investigative Committee and the Federal Security Service (FSB) to investigate the threats in light of the "sad experience" of previous assassination attempts on Russian journalists and public opinion leaders.
Investigative Committee chairman Alexander Bastrykin has confirmed that he has already instructed his service to investigate and provide a legal assessment of Ashton-Cirillo's statements.

---

Everyone who pointed this out at the very beginning was told they were just repeating "Putin's playbook."

Now the NATO chief himself is quoting "Putin playbook." https://t.co/8dofVWkwmj

— Chris Rossini (@ChrisRossini) September 12, 2023

What in the world are we doing in Ukraine, is my question.

---

I am positive you have read/heard many arguments for why, but simply disagree. Okay. You disagree. Fair enough. Doesn't mean all the folks that you disagree with are totally wrong or 'rabid war lovers' as the OP of this thread started his 'debate' with that tone.

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

"The war they (russia) alone started" damn Howard Zinn can't even do revisionist history as good as Teslag

---

Did the US start a war with Japan, or did they start one with us?

---

Did the US actively attack Japanese islands and torture ethnic Japanese in California?

Acting like Feb 2022 happened completely independent of any conflict, much less AN ACTIVE CONFLICT, is ignorance and willful ignorance at that.

fka ftc said:

---

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

"The war they (russia) alone started" damn Howard Zinn can't even do revisionist history as good as Teslag

---

Did the US start a war with Japan, or did they start one with us?

---

So we are boiling down international policy to grade school "but but but, he started it first!!!"?

---

Further, we have to willfully ignore any culpability as to nato expansion (as lamented by so many) and Joe Biden's mixed messaging in this (let alone Obama earlier).

Alliances in Europe eventually becoming a trigger to further war/escalation is a story as old as written history, at least.

"We are led by god" said the tran-knee. How is the clown show not obvious. Keeping with the grade school platitudes, what would make a Uke supporter finally see that the emperor actually has no clothes?

The US embargoed Japan, cutting them off from resources like oil and steel desperately needed to keep them from losing more Japanese lives in their war in China, and so they desperately needed an alternative solution. (Which involved the US Pacific fleet not being able to stop them by necessity). So did we start the war? No, an embargo is not an act of war.

Both sides in every war always have their justifications, but its usually very obvious who started the war. If you invade another country because you dont like that country's diplomatic actions, you are the aggressor.

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 covertly annexing Crimea and sending to troops to instigate a rebellion in Eastern Ukraine. Thats when the war started. Diplomatic blame does mean Russia is not the aggressor, they merely chose war because they could not stop what they thought another sovereign country was going to do diplomatically. They decided that to achieve their diplomatic ends Ukrainian soldiers and civilians had to be attacked.

The decision to start a full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022 was similarly unprovoked. Russia is using military means to force a diplomatic solution they could not otherwise achieve peacefully to prevent another sovereign nation from doing what they dont want them to do. We are not the aggressor. There is only one aggressor in this war and it is Russia.

And all of that is even if you take on its face the idea that Russia is even doing any of this because of diplomatic factors, and discount completely the possibility that their primary goal is, and has been, territorial gain.

fka ftc said:

---

Teslag said:

---

I think everyone on that thread would prefer Russia to pack up, go home, and end the war that they alone started if it meant never seeing another Russian die in Ukraine.

---

I don't get that impression when derogatory terms like "orcs" are used repetitively along with comments like "stacking corpses".

I would hope that this thread remains free of such disgusting disregard for human life.

---

As long as they are invading a sovereign nation and purposely targeting civilians as they have been then yes the Russian invaders' deaths should be celebrated, just like any enemy of the US should be.