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Plus dollars to donuts we spend considerable money ensuring this existing, 'surplus' equipment is in tip-top shape, is transported in pristine condition and we probably give the Ukes a 100%, money back guarantee. If it breaks, we will buy it back for original price plus 50%.

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Yes, we preserve our surplus equipment in case of a contingency like… fighting Russia. As for the rest you just made up on the spot, how about a 3000% money back guarantee for the surplus equipment we donated. 3000% of zero is still zero.

Can you think of a reason why Ukraine might want to join NATO of their own volition?

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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I'll be interested to see if this Russian offensive captures more land or if Uke can successfully hold them off. I don't think Uke is "gaining ground everyday" anymore. I'm hard pressed to think Russia can mount an offensive from their heels.

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Capturing land isn't the end all be all. As long as Ukraine keeps throwing bodies at artillery shells, Russia will sit back and let their crumple defense absorb those offenses.

Moscow has learned what Ho Chi Mein knew: the west doesn't have the resolve for long term war. And Ukraine doesn't have the population growth to sustain it either.

TheBonifaceOption said:

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Teslag said:

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Ukraine will want, and should be allowed, to join NATO with any peace deal. It's the only way to assure any peace is permanent. Russia knows this too. Russia would be fine agreeing to a peace now, and them come back for another bite at the apple years later. Ukraine in NATO completely takes that off the table.

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Ah yes...more NATO violating it's word with Moscow.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

Crazy how we swear and swear up and down to keep former soviet states neutral, but once the Union is gone who is gonna oppose NATO moving east?

Now we got jack wagons on this thread reveling in the lack of integrity.

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Continuing to expand NATO not only gives Russia global legitimacy in its aggression and drives Chinese, ME and India further into their camp.

United States belonging to NATO in 2023 makes about zero sense.

Russian aggression gives legitimacy to NATO. A defensive alliance doesn't give legitimacy to a land grab.

Teslag said:

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Can you think of a reason why Ukraine might want to join NATO of their own volition?

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It doesn't matter. The fact that NATO determines its membership means they are in the driver's seat. They made an agreement and they ought to stick to it. Ukraine applies, NATO says "nyet!"

TheBonifaceOption said:

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Teslag said:

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Can you think of a reason why Ukraine might want to join NATO of their own volition?

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It doesn't matter. The fact that NATO determines its membership means they are in the driver's seat. They made an agreement and they ought to stick to it. Ukraine applies, NATO says "nyet!"

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Russia also made an agreement to respect Ukrainian indepdence, sovereignty, and their agreed borders in the 90's. They did not.

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As long as Ukraine keeps throwing bodies at artillery shells, Russia will sit back and let their crumple defense absorb those offenses.

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Ukraine largely abandoned this strategy two months ago. They now are using guided and ranged artillery to disrupt supply lines. And as you have seen lately, increased efforts to reach targets deeper into Russia.

Ukraine, peace deal or not, is a hot mess and should be years from NATO even considering their membership.

Teslag said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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Teslag said:

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Can you think of a reason why Ukraine might want to join NATO of their own volition?

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It doesn't matter. The fact that NATO determines its membership means they are in the driver's seat. They made an agreement and they ought to stick to it. Ukraine applies, NATO says "nyet!"

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Russia also made an agreement to respect Ukrainian indepdence, sovereignty, and their agreed borders in the 90's. They did not.

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And the west fomented a coup violating the independence of Ukraine.

And Ukraine cut off the LNG pipeline Russia made to supply the EU with energy.

Funny how disrupting the status quo for geopolitics and commerce tends to serve western narrative, I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

Hot mess is an understatement. The grift and corruption is literally in their DNA and another reason US should be distancing itself from Ukes and other countries in the region and quit allowing them to suck on our teat with nothing in return.

Teslag said:

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As long as Ukraine keeps throwing bodies at artillery shells, Russia will sit back and let their crumple defense absorb those offenses.

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Ukraine largely abandoned this strategy two months ago. They now are using guided and ranged artillery to disrupt supply lines. And as you have seen lately, increased efforts to reach targets deeper into Russia.

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Ah...so no more updates on Ukraine gaining ground. It's funny, I thought the offensive was suppose to break through. Now that Ukraine has lost the initiative and is resorting to PR victories over actual victories.

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And the west fomented a coup violating the independence of Ukraine.

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And this was after the Russian Federation installed a puppet leader like they've done in Belarus. Has Russia done anything wrong at all in your opinion?

TheBonifaceOption said:

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Teslag said:

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As long as Ukraine keeps throwing bodies at artillery shells, Russia will sit back and let their crumple defense absorb those offenses.

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Ukraine largely abandoned this strategy two months ago. They now are using guided and ranged artillery to disrupt supply lines. And as you have seen lately, increased efforts to reach targets deeper into Russia.

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Ah...so no more updates on Ukraine gaining ground. It's funny, I thought the offensive was suppose to break through. Now that Ukraine has lost the initiative and is resorting to PR victories over actual victories.

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Yes, they are still gaining ground in the south, albeit slowly. But with much less casualties/equipment loss.

Ducks4brkfast said:

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Ukraine, peace deal or not, is a hot mess and should be years from NATO even considering their membership.

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Why? It assures peace in the region.

Teslag said:

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And the west fomented a coup violating the independence of Ukraine.

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And this was after the Russian Federation installed a puppet leader like they've done in Belarus. Has Russia done anything wrong at all in your opinion?

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The ProWest Yushchenko was not deposed by Russia, or by Russian-Ukrainians. He lost because his coalition party fell apart.

Then the ProEast Yanukovych won his election. Yushchenko (pro-west) came in 5th in the first round and was not Yanukovych's opponent in the final round.

The West didn't like this and fomented the coup.


This is the shet we do in South America all the time.

Again, has Russia done anything wrong in your opinion?

Deflection.

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The ProWest Yushchenko was not deposed by Russia,

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He was however poisoned by them.

Teslag said:

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The ProWest Yushchenko was not deposed by Russia,

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He was however poisoned by them.

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Goalpost officially moved. Well done, I guess

You don't think poisoning another country's presidential candidate is interfering in their affairs? And this after Yushchenko largely stiffled and froze Kuchma's efforts to further align with pro-Russian interests.

Teslag said:

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You don't think poisoning another country's presidential candidate is interfering in their affairs? And this after Yushchenko largely stiffled and froze Kuchma's efforts to further align with pro-Russian interests.

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That was not your assertion. You claimed Russia installed their puppet. Now let's move beyond the fact that Yushchenko was backed by the West, one might be so brazen to call him a western puppet.

Regardless, your claim that Russia installed their guy, when there were 3 other candidates that was more popular than "our guy" tells me that Yushchenko was a bad horse to back anyway. He wasn't popular by 2010 and his assassination attempt did not muster any popular support for him. No one was rallying to his cause, no one was fueled with righteous indignation against the would-be assassins. Maybe that's because Yushchenko wasn't popular with Ukrainians *gasp*. Oh wait, we saw that confirmed with his 5th place finish.

Somehow no one disputes the 2010 election. OSCE declared it a very straight forward election. You are pissing and moaning that a governor from Donestk (who is Russian-Ukrainian) won a fair election.

It is an interesting period we are entering in the conflict, with Zelensky now strangely going against 'corruption' within his own parliament/military, and as well the military conflict clearly turning very negative for the remaining UFA:

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…Sources of reporting that have turned: The Hill, the Washington Post and CNN now agree that the Ukrainian army will never achieve its aims.

That makes it difficult for the Biden administration to get Congress approval for $24 billion in additional 'aid' to Ukraine. It does not make sense to pay for a cause that is self evidently lost.

The Polish President Duda has also acknowledged that the counter-offensive has failed. Relations between Warsaw and Kiev have gotten worse and Polish interests will not allowfor more support or active intervention.

Nothing substantive has come from the 'peace conference' which Saudi Arabia arranged on Ukraine's behalf.

Despite the onslaught of bad news the Ukrainian army is still trying to take Russian positions in the south and east of Ukraine. But it simply does not have enough in men and material to break through the lines.
Even if they would manage to get a local breakthrough there are not enough reserves to push for the necessary follow up. Just one of the NATO trained brigades has still been held back. All others have been mauled in their various deployment zones.

In the northeast around Kupyansk the Russians have started their own offensive which has the Ukrainians on the run. Ukraine has ordered the evacuation of the area:

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A mandatory evacuation has been ordered for the Ukrainian city of Kupyansk and its surrounding areas, as Russia intensified shelling of Ukraine's northeastern Kharkiv region and claimed to have captured Ukrainian positions near the city on Thursday.

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But Kupyansk is a Russian city, and people refuse to leave.

The Russian campaign is slowly speeding up. As the Ukrainian Strana.news reports(machine translation):

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Also in Ukraine, it is recorded that from Kupyansk to Bakhmut, Russia has increased the number of attacks.

"Over the past month, the total number of attacks in the Kupyansk, Limansky and Bakhmut directions has grown significantly. In July, during the week there were 6-6.5 thousand attacks, during the last week-9 thousand attacks, " - said the representative of the National Guard Ruslan.
According to him, the Russian Federation does not experience "shell hunger".

Aviation is also actively used, and over the past few weeks, more than 50 air attacks have been taking place every day, and sometimes more than 80.

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That is bad news for the Ukrainian side which lacks the reserves to counter the Russian onslaught. There are also less weapons coming in from the West. "Wonder weapons" like 30 year old F-16's being retired by the Dutch will be delayed for (at least) another nine months due to training issues. Tanks and other material are in short supply, though outdated 60-ton M1A1 Abrams that are too heavy to operate in the 'wet' seasons in Ukraine are coming shortly.

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While there are always 'dead enders' (just as I am sure there are people wearing their Tony Fauci shirts still today), the end result of the conflict is known to the combatants on both sides, unless the Russians do push forward dramatically. I could also see the Russians decide to take Odessa before settling (for various trade reasons), but that's kind of outside my guesswork.

Actually, my original claim was that Russia also did not respect Ukraines sovereign affairs, which they have shown time and time not to have done.

Russia has zero offensive ability to take Odessa. They spent 6 months with their best units and mercs trying to take Bakhmut. Taking Odessa is about as likely as the ukes taking Crimea

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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And the west fomented a coup violating the independence of Ukraine.

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And this was after

**the Russian Federation installed a puppet leader**


like they've done in Belarus. Has Russia done anything wrong at all in your opinion?

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Pepperidge farm remembers.

Teslag said:

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Ukraine will want, and should be allowed, to join NATO with any peace deal. It's the only way to assure any peace is permanent. Russia knows this too. Russia would be fine agreeing to a peace now, and them come back for another bite at the apple years later. Ukraine in NATO completely takes that off the table.

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The problem is that Ukraine in NATO is a complete nonstarter for Russia. The only exception to this would be if Ukraine is reduced to a rump state existing solely to the west of the Dnieper and sans Odessa.

NATO leadership has already said they would likely relax the normal entrance requirements for Ukraine. Whether or not that statement is supported by all member countries is another matter. Biden has indicated, so far, he's not willing to admit them yet.

When I last read up on this, I believe there are 7 overall requirements that must be met and Ukraine had met only 2 of them. This was a pre-invasion article I read.

YouBet said:

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NATO leadership has already said they would likely relax the normal entrance requirements for Ukraine. Whether or not that statement is supported by all member countries is another matter. Biden has indicated, so far, he's not willing to admit them yet.

When I last read up on this, I believe there are 7 overall requirements that must be met and Ukraine had met only 2 of them. This was a pre-invasion article I read.

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The whole point of the war is to cover up Biden's long running family corruption in Ukraine for the remainder of his political career, which looks to be less than a year to go right now, and secondarily to help his other foreign benefactors, the Chinese.

So to that extent it's been a great success. Sorry to those 300K who had to die.

RebelE Infantry said:

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Teslag said:

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Ukraine will want, and should be allowed, to join NATO with any peace deal. It's the only way to assure any peace is permanent. Russia knows this too. Russia would be fine agreeing to a peace now, and them come back for another bite at the apple years later. Ukraine in NATO completely takes that off the table.

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The problem is that Ukraine in NATO is a complete nonstarter for Russia. The only exception to this would be if Ukraine is reduced to a rump state existing solely to the west of the Dnieper and sans Odessa.

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Then russia has no interest in peace unless they are given enough land?

nortex97 said:

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YouBet said:

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NATO leadership has already said they would likely relax the normal entrance requirements for Ukraine. Whether or not that statement is supported by all member countries is another matter. Biden has indicated, so far, he's not willing to admit them yet.

When I last read up on this, I believe there are 7 overall requirements that must be met and Ukraine had met only 2 of them. This was a pre-invasion article I read.

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The whole point of the war is to cover up Biden's long running family corruption in Ukraine for the remainder of his political career, which looks to be less than a year to go right now, and secondarily to help his other foreign benefactors, the Chinese.

So to that extent it's been a great success. Sorry to those 300K who had to die.

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Russia invaded a sovereign nation to cover up something embarrassing for the US president, their greatest enemy?

nortex97 said:

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YouBet said:

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NATO leadership has already said they would likely relax the normal entrance requirements for Ukraine. Whether or not that statement is supported by all member countries is another matter. Biden has indicated, so far, he's not willing to admit them yet.

When I last read up on this, I believe there are 7 overall requirements that must be met and Ukraine had met only 2 of them. This was a pre-invasion article I read.

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The whole point of the war is to cover up Biden's long running family corruption in Ukraine for the remainder of his political career, which looks to be less than a year to go right now, and secondarily to help his other foreign benefactors, the Chinese.

So to that extent it's been a great success. Sorry to those 300K who had to die.

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So Putin and Biden are working together now?

It's the one thing I can never have explained to me. How does senile rube Biden orchestrate a war with full assistance and cooperation between Zelensky, Putin, the CCP, and NATO?

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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nortex97 said:

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YouBet said:

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NATO leadership has already said they would likely relax the normal entrance requirements for Ukraine. Whether or not that statement is supported by all member countries is another matter. Biden has indicated, so far, he's not willing to admit them yet.

When I last read up on this, I believe there are 7 overall requirements that must be met and Ukraine had met only 2 of them. This was a pre-invasion article I read.

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The whole point of the war is to cover up Biden's long running family corruption in Ukraine for the remainder of his political career, which looks to be less than a year to go right now, and secondarily to help his other foreign benefactors, the Chinese.

So to that extent it's been a great success. Sorry to those 300K who had to die.

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So Putin and Biden are working together now?

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I know the deniers are never going to accept that but yes. Russia is run by a smallish set of oligarchs, basically, who are fabulously rich. For instance, the mayor of Moscow didn't get elected for his promises to lower crime or fix pot holes, or run against Putin etc some day.

His widow…Elena Baturina…paid the Bidens a lot, oh by the way the specific amount that Joe paid for his car. She's exempt from sanctions. The Bidens sold out to the Chinese and Russians (Burisma was, functionally, run by rich Russians too). The Bidens weren't picky in who they took money from, into their shell companies, but of course Joe was a special envoy to the most corrupt country in Europe as VP. Russia and Ukraine are very similar in their levels of corruption, oh by the way.

There's a lot of dirt out there for anyone to just now be asking 'what, you mean Joe Biden took money and was/is a partner with Russians? What in the world?'

The list goes on and on.