GAC06 said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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How many time do you think we invaded Iraq?

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that is of zero relevance to the topic of Russia's invasion of Ukraine

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Do you know the difference between an opinion and a fact?

Teslag said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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Teslag said:

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You left out the entire scope of the Iraq invasion narrative..

Quote:

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but the US invaded Iraq and might makes right so Russia gets Ukraine

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So do you think it's a waste of tax dollars AND that Russia gets Ukraine because we also invaded Iraq?


I wouldn't think you'd believe this because our Iraq invasion and Russia's invasion are like comparing apples to hand grenades.

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ITS NOT COMPARING APPLES TO HAND GRENADES
1) US claimed to invade Iraq because Iraq had WMD's that threatened the world and the US's national security interests There were no WMD's and Iraq was no threat to anyone but its own citizens.
1)Russia invades because Ukraine is threatening to join NATO is a threat to their national security interests.

2) The US invaded for oil and natural resources.
2) Russia invades for access to agriculture, ports, and other natural resources.

3) US claims to invade Iraq because they are Islamic terrorists and bad
3) Russia claims to invade Ukraine because they are Nazis and bad.

Seems EERILY similar to me.

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You're exactly right. Bush had said that the Iraqi people were actually Americans and that Iraqi identity was an illusion. Bush had also said many times Iraq and the US had both been a nation together for many years and he'd like to see that return. And of course Bush had also claimed that Iraqi sovereignty could only exist under an American umbrella as a like people.



Wait, that was actually Putin's view on Ukraine and how he believed, and still believes, that Ukraine is and should be a part of Russia.

Apples and hand grenades.

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Bush said the Iraqi people were being persecuted by Sadaam and that there were radical terrorists there and we needed to protect the innocent Iraqis from evil sadaam and stop Americans from the Islamic terrorists that were sure to attack America again so we needed to stop them.


Putin said that Ethnic Russian Ukrainians were being persecuted by Ukraine's new oppressive regime and needed to be protected and deserved freedom and that Ukraine had evil Nazis that were committing terrorist acts against ethnic Russians and that Russia needed to stop them.

UR right.

Totally different circumstances.

Can you cite the annexation dates for Iraqi regions as the 51st plus state(s)?

I'm having difficulty finding it.

Teslag said:

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Can you cite the annexation dates for Iraqi regions as the 51st plus state(s)?

I'm having difficulty finding it.

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I like how you moved the goalposts. You couldn't win the argument so you shift the narrative. Fine. I will play along.


America's version of annexation is cherry picking the new regime amd installing permanent military bases. America is imperialistic just like Russia, just less overt with annexation.

We also actually succeeded in the invasion. Russia got their asses kicked and turned back with heavy losses. That's kind of an important distinction as long as we're playing whataboutism

Quote:

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we are big about protecting and ensuring sovereignty and self determination.

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Yeah, so true.





But trust the CIA/DoD/Democrats/MSM/swamp this time. It's all about freedom for a sovereign government to join our military alliance/block.

Whataboutism: I'm not sure where this term originated but I hate it. It's a hand wave argument to try and not recognize double standards and hypocrisy.

We should call a spade a spade regardless and quit using this as a cheap defense.

Other historical conflicts do not justify this invasion. It's a argument of desperation.

You're correct, but also this was not whataboutism because ****I never asserted the Iraqi invasion was justification for Russia's invasion.***

That is a strawmen Tesla keeps trying to build. Receipts are all here, I never said it, only Tesla did in his attempt to pretend I believe it.

YouBet said:

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Whataboutism: I'm not sure where this term originated but I hate it. It's a hand wave argument to try and not recognize double standards and hypocrisy.

We should call a spade a spade regardless and quit using this as a cheap defense.

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It's a lazy argument. If someone wants to debate the Iraq war again then start a thread doing so. Or just pull up many of those old threads. And if someone truly hated what we did in Iraq then they'd be equally if not more so upset at what Russia is doing in Ukraine. But they aren't. They bend over backwards to not only defend it, but justify it all while trashing and loathing their own country.

The point is, they don't give two ****s about Iraq. It's simply yet another attempt to excuse and justify the actions of Russia and Putin.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You're correct, but also this was not whataboutism because ****I never asserted the Iraqi invasion was justification for Russia's invasion.***

That is a strawmen Tesla keeps trying to build. Receipts are all here, I never said it, only Tesla did in his attempt to pretend I believe it.

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You actually said "all of those narratives can be true" one of which was using the Iraq invasion to justify Russia's.

Wrong again. Iraq is brought up to demonstrate the hypocrisy of your position

Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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You're correct, but also this was not whataboutism because ****I never asserted the Iraqi invasion was justification for Russia's invasion.***

That is a strawmen Tesla keeps trying to build. Receipts are all here, I never said it, only Tesla did in his attempt to pretend I believe it.

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You actually said "all of those narratives can be true" one of which was using the Iraq invasion to justify Russia's.

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You asked me point blank what I believe is true.

I answered: https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3365034/replies/65333567

Then you keep circling back to "well you left off the other half of the strawman I built."

Yeah of course I left that off. Its total BS that I've only seen you post in attempt to pretend someone else believe it.

"Of course I left it off…"


Thank you. We are done here I believe.

Sorry I found your strawman. Thanks for playing.

Teslag said:

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YouBet said:

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Whataboutism: I'm not sure where this term originated but I hate it. It's a hand wave argument to try and not recognize double standards and hypocrisy.

We should call a spade a spade regardless and quit using this as a cheap defense.

---

It's a lazy argument. If someone wants to debate the Iraq war again then start a thread doing so. Or just pull up many of those old threads. And if someone truly hated what we did in Iraq then they'd be equally if not more so upset at what Russia is doing in Ukraine. But they aren't. They bend over backwards to not only defend it, but justify it all while trashing and loathing their own country.

The point is, they don't give two ****s about Iraq. It's simply yet another attempt to excuse and justify the actions of Russia and Putin.

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Maybe I should have clarified...I wasn't trying to justify this Russian invasion. I was commenting on general on the usage of the term. IMO, by definition, using it is a lazy argument. It's an argumentative tactic of convenience.

It allows one to not be accountable. Anywho, back to the stalemate.

White Lizzo, also known as Chris Christie, took a trip to Ukraine and presented Zelenskyy with blue and yellow flowers.

In case you were wondering what kind of a Republican Chris is, it’s the type that would continue the national sucking-off of Zelenskyy.

Why is it that Chris… pic.twitter.com/LsMbBQb9G4

— Joey Mannarino (@JoeyMannarinoUS) August 4, 2023

I think Chris has lost some weight.

GAC06 said:

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We also actually succeeded in the invasion. Russia got their asses kicked and turned back with heavy losses. That's kind of an important distinction as long as we're playing whataboutism

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It's not about whataboutism.

Russia has legitimate national security concerns that the US failed to diplomatically resolve and that the US actually caused.

^^This is indisputably true^^

In the name of national security the US has invaded foreign nations and killed hundreds of thousands of civilians repeatedly. And even falsified the justification for such invasions.

^^This is also indisputably true^^

What I am pointing out is that it is 100% hypocritical for a people and a nation who have invaded a series of foreign nations in the name of national security for the past 20 years to paint another country as evil for doing the same. It is grossly myopic to treat the Russian's national security concerns as imaginary boogeyman when for 20+ years our own national security concerns were used as justification for to doing the exact same thing.

If you think Russia is EVIL for what they have done then you must think America is evil for what we have done for the past 20 years.

In this I am trying albeit in vain to help people see that there is a diplomatic foreign policy solution that involves fewer dead bodies if people would just stop eating the narrative that Russia was not provoked into doing this and had no strategic justification for invading.

Furthermore it is the epitome of irresponsibility to stonewall attempts at peace talks as if we are some arbiters of freedom and justice when there is a 20 year history of the exact opposite.

Additionally, it is against the interests of our country's citizens to send obscene amounts of money with zero oversight to one of the most corrupt countries in Europe.

Maybe if Americans could see the similarities in the reasons why Russia is invading and how it mirrors what we did in the middle east they could see a diplomatic way out of this that

1) doesn't send more money down the toilet
2) doesn't involve thousands of more dead bodies
3) can result in a lasting peace
4) doesn't lead to Russia using nukes

Russia did not have legitimate national security concerns from NATO or Ukraine.

Russia has repeatedly invaded its neighbors, in this case in an attempt to seize and annex a sovereign nation. Russia's aggression is what creates the need for NATO and the desire for Russia's formerly subjugated states to seek NATO's protection.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq or numerous other conflicts, no matter how many times you try to conflate the situations.

GAC06 said:

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Russia did not have legitimate national security concerns from NATO or Ukraine.

Russia has repeatedly invaded its neighbors, in this case in an attempt to seize and annex a sovereign nation. Russia's aggression is what creates the need for NATO and the desire for Russia's formerly subjugated states to seek NATO's protection.

It has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq or numerous other conflicts, no matter how many times you try to conflate the situations.

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Do you have any evidence that Russia had no concerns? Clearly that would come from Russian media, which you have chosen to ignore. So you really have less awareness of what Russia's concerns are than anyone with a willingness to read the opposition viewpoint.

No legitimate concerns. That's why they sold their invasion as de-nazification, staged ludicrous false flags, biolabs, etc. They're FOS. They knew NATO was never going to invade. They miscalculated their own strength and the western response.

GAC06 said:

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No legitimate concerns. That's why they sold their invasion as de-nazification, staged ludicrous false flags, biolabs, etc. They're FOS. They knew NATO was never going to invade. They miscalculated their own strength and the western response.

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You are just parroting what you said before without addressing my response.

[url=https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1687496195885735946?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1687496195885735946%7Ctwgr%5E789154f4e9c161efd9c196a511951553e4d90cf9%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpjmedia.com%2Fnews-and-politics%2Fmatt-margolis%2F2023%2F08%2F05%2Fthe-stunning-lack-of-self-awareness-of-bidens-secretary-of-state-antony-blinken-n1716494]

pic.twitter.com/K0SMZYuWrW

— TWEETO BANDITO (@DjptrsnMana) August 4, 2023

[/url]

LOL, we are 'so much better' than Moscow, right Blinken? After all, we would never lie about Russian 'disinformation' being involved with the Bidens, correct?

Quote:

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Blinken has previously come under fire for his role in orchestrating the letter from more than 50 intelligence officials falsely claiming the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation.

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Oh.

Our virtuous friends from Kiev committing more acts of terror:

Quote:

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Ukrainian forces have reportedly fired cluster munitions into Donetsk city, striking a private residence, a university and other civilian targets.

Four rounds of 155mm cluster bombs were fired into the center of the city on Saturday night, triggering fires in three districts, the Joint Center of Control and Coordination (JCCC) for the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) said. The cluster munitions reportedly exploded in the air.

The Donetsk University of Economics and Trade was on fire after the shelling, the Mayor of Donetsk Aleksey Kulemzin said in a Telegram post. Fires also were reported in apartment buildings.

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Quote:

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Donetsk and other Donbass cities have been under constant Ukrainian attacks which have claimed numerous civilian lives since 2014, when the region broke away from Kiev after a Western-backed coup in the Ukrainian capital. Over the years, Ukraine's military established heavily fortified positions around the cit. The attacks intensified after the launch of Moscow's military operation against Kiev in February 2022, leaving scores of civilians killed and delivering major damage to infrastructure.

The Donetsk People's Republic became part of Russia last October together with the People's Republic of Lugansk and Zaporozhye and Kherson Regions, following referendums in which the local populations voted overwhelmingly in favor of the move.

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As always with Democrats, they project onto others (Republicans, Russians, whatever), what they are guilty of.



Always try to read through propaganda.

"American Bombs Make Iraq Stronger" pic.twitter.com/HkgYbq14Y0

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) August 6, 2023

Reminder...those 51 "intelligence" people are also the ones responsible for:

Iraq
Afghanistan
Benghazi
Ukraine
Overturning the Will of the American People in 2020
Covering up every mass shooter "manifesto"

And God knows what else. https://t.co/jtmcgt28cx

— NC Scout (@Brushbeater) August 2, 2023

Biden Makes Things Up To 7th Grandchild By Appointing Her Head Of Ukrainian Shell Company https://t.co/kEIcp2X60J pic.twitter.com/TkucIdCmW5

— The Babylon Bee (@TheBabylonBee) August 5, 2023

I may have injured my head at some point, but I very clearly remember the Ukrainians endlessly delaying the offensive in hopes of getting more weaponry until we started yelling at them to get on with it.

Let's not forget this was originally supposed to be the WINTER offensive. https://t.co/pcR9W8LTAw

— Armchair Warlord (@ArmchairW) August 6, 2023

Imperial sanctions against Russia have proven so effective that Russia now not only has the tallest building in Europe, but also the largest economy, surpassing Germany.

The Lakhta Center in St. Petersburg is also, imo, one of the most elegant modern skyscrapers ever built. pic.twitter.com/anyTNEQSXp

— Will Schryver (@imetatronink) August 6, 2023

You think they assassinate Z or let him live? He cancelled their elections iirc.

Yes, he cancelled them until the war is over I believe. Just like FDR did during WW2. Oh, wait, nevermind.

The intermediate range future depends what Russia chooses to do next, I think, and Chinese objectives (Blackrock etc). I do think Zelensky is enormously unpopular among the rank and file UFA, and could easily be deposed there in a violent putsch, but as for the CIA/western intents, I would expect him to leave office peacefully then flee into exile most likely after a truce/pending elections.

Quote:

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Early this year, Ukraine began to outfit two separate 'army corps' of maneuver brigades specifically for the coming 'counter-offensive'. These were the 9th Corps and the 10th Corps. The 9th Corps was meant to be themostlyNATO-armed and trained one which was famously revealed in the Pentagon leaks. It consisted of the 9 named maneuver brigades, which were the 116th, 47th, 33rd, 21st, 32nd, 37th, 118th, 117th, and the 82nd air assault.

Out of these, the 47th was said to be the most elite, cobbled from all 'volunteers' who signed up specifically from other units and were trained in the UK and were armed with 99 x M2A2 Bradleys as well as American M109 Paladins for artillery.

The role of the two army corps was that the 9th was meant to be the breakthrough brigade which reached the first 'main line of defense', the notorious ones with dragon teeth that Russia spent months constructing. Upon reaching this line, the 10th Corps was meant to be the 'breakthrough' force which then took over for the 9th, pouring in another fresh 9-12 brigades through the gap to create an unstoppable opening.

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As an aside, isn't it interesting how none of the 'war reporters' for major media outlets report anything similar in terms of depth of analyses/understanding? Almost like when the message is always the same…

Quote:

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Some context: Ukraine had, according to the Pentagon leaks, about 34 maneuver brigades, with another 27 TDF (Territorial Defense Forces) brigades likely capable of mostly holding trenches and without much heavy weaponry or armor, and 9 artillery brigades total left in the war. This is 61 total infantry/armor brigades which are meant to hold a frontline 1,300km long. This averages to 1300/61 = 21km per brigade. Note that in Soviet doctrine a brigade should hold something like no more than 2-3km at most and an entire division should hold 10km. Not to mention that Ukrainian brigades are at most 4000 men when they should be 5000, most are 3000 and apparently, even according to MSM articles covering them, some are 2000.

Some will ask, how is it possible that Russia is not overwhelming the AFU with such thin lines and battered brigades. Recall that Russia is only fighting this war with a percentage of its armed forces. The Russian army has classically had anywhere between 50-65% contract with 50-35% conscripts, and as you know, the MOD is not allowing conscripts to fight here. That means Russia is only using about ~60% of its total bayonet strength while Ukraine is using everyoneall Ukrainian troops are conscripts force-mobilized straight from the street.

Not to mention there are still hundreds of thousands (official number 340k) of 'National Guard' that Russia is not utilizing while Ukraine uses its full national guard, police force, and everything in between as frontline assault. Russia has typically only used small specialized Rosgvardia 'special forces' like FSVNG rather than the regular national guard itself. Thus, Russia is fighting this entire war as an exclusively contracted, professional military force while leaving hundreds of thousands of troops not committed. Ukraine on the other hand is committing everything imaginable.

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Anyway, there's a lot more at the link, which is worth reading I think, as a fairly balanced discussion of the 'status of forces' respectfully on both sides. My cautious prediction of a truce next year might not play out if the Russians do decide to just March their now-much-larger forces on Kiev this winter amidst/after an insurmountable drone/missile barrage. If that happens, Zelensky will be deposed/flee very quickly, a la Karzai.

Much of the rest of the war talk in the msm nowadays, to the extent anyone is paying attention to anything but our Stazi state forces trying to imprison Trump, is just silly-season bs, like pandering about how important F-16's would be next spring in combat. The situation is quite desperate for the UFA, and actual Ukrainians know that.

It would be wild to see Mr. "I don't need a ride I need a gun" tuck tail and flee after he was so willing to send so many others to their death for all this time.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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It would be wild to see Mr. "I don't need a ride I need a gun" tuck tail and flee after he was so willing to send so many others to their death for all this time.

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Yes, he should have done the noble thing and surrendered his nation to avoid war.

10thYrSr said:

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GAC06 said:

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No legitimate concerns. That's why they sold their invasion as de-nazification, staged ludicrous false flags, biolabs, etc. They're FOS. They knew NATO was never going to invade. They miscalculated their own strength and the western response.

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You are just parroting what you said before without addressing my response.

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He addressed it. There was zero chance NATO was going to ever invade Russian soil. It was a ludicrous concern.

10thYrSr said:

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Ag with kids said:

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10thYrSr said:

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I guess TeslAg didn't see the mass grave production near Kiev.

I don't know why these Ukraine supporters deny the nature of war and might. Might makes right.

Sure, it was disgusting that Russia invaded Ukraine. But that is the nature of humanity. No nation has a "right" to exist beyond their abilities to defend their borders.

If Ukraine can't defend themselves then they get absorbed. If anyone has balls to challenge the attacker they can take that from them as well!

Why do you think NATO exists historically?

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To stop Russia from attacking its members.

Kinda the reason Ukraine wanted to be one...

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Right but they aren't. So the natural law of might makes right applies. Do you agree?

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If that's how you think it should be in this day and age, that's your prerogative...

But, looks like Russia is finding out that Ukraine (with help from others) have just as much might as they do...

nortex97 said:

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The fact that a majority of Americans oppose further funding for Ukraine is a remarkable act of defiance against MSM narrative control, Biden’s policy (“as much as it takes, as long as it takes”), and the GOP Establishment (“Biden should do more, faster”). pic.twitter.com/0jxpzldhJx

— David Sacks (@DavidSacks) August 4, 2023

First poll I can recall where a majority favor stopping it.

Russia's main challenge is a labor shortage, not currency/inflation/trade/sanctions:

Quote:

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Of course, the burden of maintaining Ukraine's defense is a massive fiscal burden for Kyiv and its allies too, including the cost of maintaining economic sanctions against Russia.

The Wall Street Journal (WSJ) on Wednesday was less optimistic that Moscow will lose the money war, noting that on both the real-world and spreadsheet battlefields, titanic Western spending has only been able to achieve a "stalemate" against Russia.

The Biden White House glibly predicted sanctions would "cut Russia's economy in half" after the invasion of Ukraine began, but Russian GDP shrank only 2.1 percent in the first year of the war, and will grow by 1.5 percent this year, even though Russia is "the most sanctioned major economy in the world."
Nothing about the sanctions regime has worked as the Biden administration predicted:

Quote:

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When they were unveiled, the sanctions were described by Biden administration officials as the most consequential in history, and the initial shock and awe roiled Moscow's financial markets. But today the economy has muddled through enough for the Kremlin to support an attritional war that the U.S. had hoped to avoid.

Sanctions initially starved Russia of microchips and high-tech components last year, crimping its ability to produce precision-guided missiles. But since then Moscow has found loopholes through neighboring countries, and is bombing Ukraine daily with precision weaponry.

Russia's crude oil continues to flow, even if the lower prices it fetches have hit state coffers. Analysts say that the main effect of sanctionstechnological backwardness and an inability to modernizewill hamper its economic growth in the longer term.

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The military budget document reviewed by Reuters might be a bit more gloomy than the situation described by the WSJ's correspondents a few days earlier, but the bottom line is that Russia's strategy of using military production as economic stimulus to balance the impact of sanctions and relying on a few key trading partners and shadowy shipping networks to avoid the worst of those impacts is still working for the moment.

Interestingly, the Reuters and WSJ analyses agreed on one key point: Russia's great near-term weakness is a growing shortage of labor.

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Ep. 13 Part 2. Devon Archer pic.twitter.com/R1sxSuPrKq

— Tucker Carlson (@TuckerCarlson) August 4, 2023

Just $50-100K gifts like a Humboldt watch from their Ukrainian employers. No biggie. (50 minutes). Yes, this is a BIG part of why there are hundreds of thousands dead today in Ukraine.

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The MAIN reason is because Putin is an ******* and had Russia invade Ukraine, though...

TheBonifaceOption said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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nortex97 said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Where will Russia stop? The Dnieper? The Dnieper plus Odessa? Poland?

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Of course none of us can know for certain, but I believe it to be the Dnieper plus Odessa, more or less. Something like this is possible:

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That seems plausible.

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The Dnieper flowing potable water to Crimea was highest priority for Russia. People forget Kiev dammed the Dnieper to thirst-out Crimea back in 2014. This was an internationally recognized human rights violation from our virtuous Ukrainian allies prior to the "invasion." Russia destroyed the dam in the first 2 hrs of the war.

https://thehill.com/policy/equilibrium-sustainability/597910-how-a-ukrainian-dam-played-a-key-role-in-tensions-with/

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Why would "invasion" be in quotes? Are you implying Russia didn't actually invade?

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First, recognize the conflict has been going on for 8 years prior to Russia's direct involvement.

Secondly, the initial force was not majority Russian, but ethnic-Russian Ukrainians from the Donbass who have fled to Russia over the past decade due to the brutalization of the conflict.

The "invasion" was primarily Ukrainian expats. Would you consider the Bay of Pigs an American invasion of Cuba? The majority of that force were Cuban nationals who fled Castro, they had backing by Americans but the force was largely Cuban expats.

If you have been paying attention to Moscow since the "invasion", the admittance of Luhansk and Donetsk into the federation was a legal trigger for Putin to activate the regular Russian military to a larger role than previously engaged.

The first few weeks you had folks laughing at the "invaders" driving weird vehicles ranging from Yugos to primer-painted ice cream trucks. "Thats the 'powerful' russian military? ROFLMAO." No, indeed it wasnt. It was a militia of Russian-Ukrainians.

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What happened in 2006?

fka ftc said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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When they start talking to themselves, you know Russia is winning.

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Looking at this part of the thread it's nothing but ignores of the pro Uke Z worshippers.

I've grown tired of scathing bans for calling out their exhaustive trolling. It's worse than a religious discussion on the General Board.

Repetitive nonsensical name calling anyone who does not call for stacking Rooskie bodies is nothing but a Putin plant.

Appreciate the posts by Nortex and the adults in the room here can discern whether they trust the information sources or not. But the clutter of "that's Russian propaganda" is such childish nonsense.

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Hehehehe

TheBonifaceOption said:

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Teslag said:

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What a load of bull *****

Let me guess, Russia didn't want all of Ukraine either

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Ah yes, here you go again with the debunked narrative of Putin wanting all of Ukraine, then on his way to the Atlantic.

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I guess their military was lost when they were trying to drive through Kiev. Luckily, the Ukrainians gave them directions and they were able to backtrack...

Teslag said:

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GAC06 said:

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Whataboutism

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It's a result of the constant narrative shifts. As one is either destroyed or outright abandoned by Russian state media they then regurgitate the same new terrible arguments. The Russians have always done this and just pretend they've never had a different point of view. On a message board with free exchange and opposition it becomes a bit more difficult.

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Wait...Russia hasn't ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia????