GAC06 said:

---

Russia literally annexed the territories they invaded (and failed to invade)

---

Where was this outrage during the Crimean War? This is how it works.

10thYrSr said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Russia literally annexed the territories they invaded (and failed to invade)

---

Where was this outrage during the Crimean War? This is how it works.

---

I wasn't alive during the Crimean War. I'm not sure where the outrage was

Can we be clear on this thread that sovereignty is solely guaranteed by a country's ability to defend themselves?

There is a lot of confusion over this and I want to clear it up. There is no RIGHT for a nation to exist. It exists because they are able to defend their borders. If they can't, then they will be absorbed by a nation with greater power.

Can we all agree this is true? If not, post your refute.

What's the TLDR of this thread?

RuZZia invaded Ukraine in a war of conquest. Ukraine is defending itself from extinction.

RuZZia is a corrupt shizhole
Ukraine is a corrupt shizhole
USA is a corrupt shizhole

What's the other perspective?

Gilligan said:

---

What's the TLDR of this thread?

RuZZia invaded Ukraine in a war of conquest. Ukraine is defending itself from extinction.

RuZZia is a corrupt shizhole
Ukraine is a corrupt shizhole
USA is a corrupt shizhole

What's the other perspective?

---

To be fair the "other perspective" thread was formed for "actual" discussion of the goings on in the Uke-Rus war because the other thread was limited to "tactical" discussion.

It's not actually another perspective but the discussion thread that allows deviance from the narrative.

And I just noticed I used actually too much

10thYrSr said:

---

Can we be clear on this thread that sovereignty is solely guaranteed by a country's ability to defend themselves?

There is a lot of confusion over this and I want to clear it up. There is no RIGHT for a nation to exist. It exists because they are able to defend their borders. If they can't, then they will be absorbed by a nation with greater power.

Can we all agree this is true? If not, post your refute.

---

Yes, if we wanted to invade Canada we could and there's little they could do to stop it. Same with Mexico and just anbout every nation on earth. But we don't . There's a reasonable expectation of peace and respect of borders in the modern world. Even with the list of nations we've invaded we haven't annexed them simply because we could. Even after WW2 we tried to deviate from history's tradition of to the victor goes the spoils. We rebuilt Japan into a modern power. Same with Germany.

And while nations may not have rights, people do. And the Ukrainian people are exercising those rights of self determination. To exist as a nation of people. And they are doing a damn good job of doing so.

With that said it's been enjoyable to watch the narratives shift. Of course the first was that we just don't want our taxes going to Ukraine. Then it was Russia was justified for invading because we provoked them with a defensive pact. Russia was then justified in invasion because Ukraine was always a part of Russia and doesn't deserve to be a country. Then it was that it wasn't an invasion at all and Russia didn't actually want Ukraine. And now we are rolling with "but the US invaded Iraq and might makes right so Russia gets Ukraine".

Quote:

---

how the Ukrainians were committing human rights violations before the invasion

---

You mean the things that happened under the pro-Russian government prior to 2014 that has since been ousted and replaced?

The narrative hasn't been shifting, literally all of those things can be simultaneously true.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

The narrative hasn't been shifting, literally all of those things can be simultaneously true.

---

Which one of them to you believe to be true?

I believe America invaded Iraq.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

I believe America invaded Iraq.

---

We absolutely did. Who here has said otherwise?

No one, I'm just answering your questions and hoping you finally get around to making your point. Anytime now.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

No one, I'm just answering your questions and hoping you finally get around to making your point. Anytime now.

---

You said more than one those narratives can be true at the same time. Which ones do you think are all true right now, at the same time?

You asked which "one" I believe to be true. But if you now want 2:

I think its a waste of tax dollars, (recent polls showing the US is starting to agree with me) and we've already agreed we invaded Iraq. There's 2 things. This is starting to feel pedantic. What point are you making?

You left out the entire scope of the Iraq invasion narrative..

Quote:

---

but the US invaded Iraq and might makes right so Russia gets Ukraine

---

So do you think it's a waste of tax dollars AND that Russia gets Ukraine because we also invaded Iraq?


I wouldn't think you'd believe this because our Iraq invasion and Russia's invasion are like comparing apples to hand grenades.

And which polls? I've seen the single one from CNN (which apparently now is a trusted news source). Which is the other?

Wait, which time that we invaded Iraq are you referencing, just so I know we're on the same page?

(Have you figured it out my point yet)

We invaded once. In 2003.

Unless you seriously want to consider 1991 an "invasion" when we liberated Kuwait, then left Iraq without even forcing a regime change.

What you're referencing is called the Gulf War. Bit has its own Wikipedia page, and I think you should start there if you believe we only invaded once.

A 100 hour flanking maneuver into Iraq to liberate Kuwait is now an "invasion" used to justify Russian aggression in Ukraine. Mind you, this is AFTER Iraq invaded and occupied a sovereign nation AND attacked and killed American forces in Saudi Arabia via SCUD missiles.

Simply stunning yet totally not surprising.

"American only invaded Iraq once"

The realpolitik of the matter is that America can do anything it wants to anyone anytime because we're the undisputed superpower.

We allow other nations to have independent excursions in the world, but only when it doesn't impact perceived core interests.

Russia made the mistake of violating our core interests by cuddling up with China, threatening a pro Western government in a vital geopolitical crossroads, and providing us an opportunity to evaluate their military through proxy war which reduces their threat to the Baltic states and Poland directly.

Russia thought this would be cool, and as usual they're too much of cowards to use nuclear weapons or try to even seriously pressure our unhindered armament of Ukraine - showing once again Russians talk big but fold fast.

Because of all this, Russia's military is currently as the kids say, FAAFO.

Unsurprisingly, Biden continued to censor the Shokin evidenced/videos of his response to Bidens lies.

WELCOME TO THE FRAUD SQUAD! pic.twitter.com/jAMcbykCbG

— Trump War Room (@TrumpWarRoom) August 4, 2023

You interfered with the 2020 US election by pushing a fake story that Hunter Biden’s laptop was “Russian disinformation” - it wasn’t. But you pushed the Chinese government’s preferred talking point.

You’ve lost any credibility and moral authority to lecture others. https://t.co/ZlNE81H4A0

— Richard Grenell (@RichardGrenell) August 5, 2023

Extremely telling they're more worried about the narrative in the Western press than they are about the enemy in front of them. https://t.co/m2tWDbqEvE

— Armchair Warlord (@ArmchairW) August 5, 2023

Hasn't been much to post about lately. Been mostly noise with the half mile gained here or there by either side. We've effectively entered stalemate territory which was predicted long ago by many. Not sure how this thing ends other than a negotiated settlement with roughly the current lines.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-struggles-to-retake-bakhmut-from-dogged-russian-fighters-c8945b93?st=b9m4kqiea8cajfd&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Quote:

---

Some of Ukraine's biggest gains in its counteroffensive have come around the city of Bakhmut, which Russia seized in May after months of bloody fighting. But soldiers near there say advances have slowed in recent days amid stiff Russian defense and counterattacks, denting hopes that Kyiv could soon retake the city.

---

Quote:

---

Ukraine's counteroffensive, now in its third month, has been slow going, bogged down by strong Russian defensive positions, mines and helicopter assaults, particularly in the south. That raises difficult questions about the scale of the task facing the Ukrainian forces.

---

Quote:

---

A Ukrainian official said Monday that Ukraine had liberated 0.7 square mile in the Bakhmut area, in the previous week. Russia still controls around 20% of Ukraine.

---

This war has mostly shifted to old school artillery bombardment:

Quote:

---

The British army veteran said that at the end of last year and the start of 2023 the fighting often involved soldiers trading small-arms fire, but has now reduced to mainly artillery bombardment. The injuries he treats are mainly related to those inflicted by fragmentation and shrapnel.

---

Quote:

---

At an artillery position around 4 miles from the front line, members of a unit that operates a German howitzera PzH2000, or Panzerhaubitzesaid they spend much of the day driving to different positions, hitting Russian artillery and infantry units.

"We pushed the Russians back around 1 kilometer, but now they are coming back," said Andriy, the commander of the howitzer.

---

The Russian soliders have upped their game as well.

Quote:

---

Local soldiers say that the Russians are using many more drones now and appear to have more than the Ukrainian forces in the area.

---

Quote:

---

Aside from drones, Russians appear to be developing in other ways, including through encrypting more of their communications to stop Ukraine eavesdropping, according to an intelligence official.
Many soldiers agreed.

"The Russians are more trained and more creative," said a soldier at Chasiv Yar whose call sign is Doom.

---

Jets won't be ready until 2024 based on everything I've read. In the meantime, we get a stalemate and poorer countries will suffer food shortage and famine. Just another reason to do everything you can to be self-sustaining as a country.

Quote:

---

Soldiers say jet fighters are needed if Ukraine is to make progress here without a large loss of life.

---

Teslag said:

---

You left out the entire scope of the Iraq invasion narrative..

Quote:

---

but the US invaded Iraq and might makes right so Russia gets Ukraine

---

So do you think it's a waste of tax dollars AND that Russia gets Ukraine because we also invaded Iraq?


I wouldn't think you'd believe this because our Iraq invasion and Russia's invasion are like comparing apples to hand grenades.

---

ITS NOT COMPARING APPLES TO HAND GRENADES
1) US claimed to invade Iraq because Iraq had WMD's that threatened the world and the US's national security interests There were no WMD's and Iraq was no threat to anyone but its own citizens.
1)Russia invades because Ukraine is threatening to join NATO is a threat to their national security interests.

2) The US invaded for oil and natural resources.
2) Russia invades for access to agriculture, ports, and other natural resources.

3) US claims to invade Iraq because they are Islamic terrorists and bad
3) Russia claims to invade Ukraine because they are Nazis and bad.

Seems EERILY similar to me.

Doesn't sound like RuSsian bOdies aRe beiNg sTaCked to me

It's relatively stable, yes, overall, but a lot of flux/initiatives across a huge set of towns/areas.



Another good take, imho:

Ags4DaWin said:

---

Teslag said:

---

You left out the entire scope of the Iraq invasion narrative..

Quote:

---

but the US invaded Iraq and might makes right so Russia gets Ukraine

---

So do you think it's a waste of tax dollars AND that Russia gets Ukraine because we also invaded Iraq?


I wouldn't think you'd believe this because our Iraq invasion and Russia's invasion are like comparing apples to hand grenades.

---

ITS NOT COMPARING APPLES TO HAND GRENADES
1) US claimed to invade Iraq because Iraq had WMD's that threatened the world and the US's national security interests There were no WMD's and Iraq was no threat to anyone but its own citizens.
1)Russia invades because Ukraine is threatening to join NATO is a threat to their national security interests.

2) The US invaded for oil and natural resources.
2) Russia invades for access to agriculture, ports, and other natural resources.

3) US claims to invade Iraq because they are Islamic terrorists and bad
3) Russia claims to invade Ukraine because they are Nazis and bad.

Seems EERILY similar to me.

---

You're exactly right. Bush had said that the Iraqi people were actually Americans and that Iraqi identity was an illusion. Bush had also said many times Iraq and the US had both been a nation together for many years and he'd like to see that return. And of course Bush had also claimed that Iraqi sovereignty could only exist under an American umbrella as a like people.



Wait, that was actually Putin's view on Ukraine and how he believed, and still believes, that Ukraine is and should be a part of Russia.

Apples and hand grenades.

"We only invaded Iraq one time" from the same people that think Russia is the only place with propaganda.

You're never going to wake him up., so let him sleep. For some, ignorance is bliss. I'm reminded of this clip.

But truly, some (like the bimbo blonde in the clip) are born and raised in America, and they were indoctrinated to see it (and themselves) as a force of unquestionable good. Others can recognize that at some point between 1776 and today we started to let bad people get in charge of a good thing. Most that get to that point figure out we've done ad things to. "We came we we saw he died" was what exactly? Have we found the WMD's yet?

But always remember: Ukraine is a sovereign nation, and we are big about protecting and ensuring sovereignty and self determination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

or something

Whataboutism

I remember when liberals like Michelle Obama were ridiculed for hating American exceptionalism. Now they are lifted up as heroes as long as it props up Putin.

Michele Obama is a man named Michael. Do you even pay attention?

How many time do you think we invaded Iraq?

GAC06 said:

---

Whataboutism

---

It's a result of the constant narrative shifts. As one is either destroyed or outright abandoned by Russian state media they then regurgitate the same new terrible arguments. The Russians have always done this and just pretend they've never had a different point of view. On a message board with free exchange and opposition it becomes a bit more difficult.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

How many time do you think we invaded Iraq?

---

Zero is the applicable answer. As in: that is of zero relevance to the topic of Russia's invasion of Ukraine