Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

525,195 Views | 9433 Replies | Last: 18 hrs ago by PlaneCrashGuy
Ag with kids
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AG
10thYrSr said:

I guess TeslAg didn't see the mass grave production near Kiev.

I don't know why these Ukraine supporters deny the nature of war and might. Might makes right.

Sure, it was disgusting that Russia invaded Ukraine. But that is the nature of humanity. No nation has a "right" to exist beyond their abilities to defend their borders.

If Ukraine can't defend themselves then they get absorbed. If anyone has balls to challenge the attacker they can take that from them as well!

Why do you think NATO exists historically?
To stop Russia from attacking its members.

Kinda the reason Ukraine wanted to be one...
Teslag
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10thYrSr said:

I guess TeslAg didn't see the mass grave production near Kiev.

I don't know why these Ukraine supporters deny the nature of war and might. Might makes right.

Sure, it was disgusting that Russia invaded Ukraine. But that is the nature of humanity. No nation has a "right" to exist beyond their abilities to defend their borders.

If Ukraine can't defend themselves then they get absorbed. If anyone has balls to challenge the attacker they can take that from them as well!

Why do you think NATO exists historically?


But Ukraine IS defending themselves. Russia literally has no ability to mount any real offensive.
Teslag
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Ag with kids said:

10thYrSr said:

I guess TeslAg didn't see the mass grave production near Kiev.

I don't know why these Ukraine supporters deny the nature of war and might. Might makes right.

Sure, it was disgusting that Russia invaded Ukraine. But that is the nature of humanity. No nation has a "right" to exist beyond their abilities to defend their borders.

If Ukraine can't defend themselves then they get absorbed. If anyone has balls to challenge the attacker they can take that from them as well!

Why do you think NATO exists historically?
To stop Russia from attacking its members.

Kinda the reason Ukraine wanted to be one...
10thYrSr
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Ag with kids said:

10thYrSr said:

I guess TeslAg didn't see the mass grave production near Kiev.

I don't know why these Ukraine supporters deny the nature of war and might. Might makes right.

Sure, it was disgusting that Russia invaded Ukraine. But that is the nature of humanity. No nation has a "right" to exist beyond their abilities to defend their borders.

If Ukraine can't defend themselves then they get absorbed. If anyone has balls to challenge the attacker they can take that from them as well!

Why do you think NATO exists historically?
To stop Russia from attacking its members.

Kinda the reason Ukraine wanted to be one...


Right but they aren't. So the natural law of might makes right applies. Do you agree?
10thYrSr
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You could have just starred the post instead of increasing the thread length. And now you have made me do the same.
Teslag
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AG
10thYrSr said:

Ag with kids said:

10thYrSr said:

I guess TeslAg didn't see the mass grave production near Kiev.

I don't know why these Ukraine supporters deny the nature of war and might. Might makes right.

Sure, it was disgusting that Russia invaded Ukraine. But that is the nature of humanity. No nation has a "right" to exist beyond their abilities to defend their borders.

If Ukraine can't defend themselves then they get absorbed. If anyone has balls to challenge the attacker they can take that from them as well!

Why do you think NATO exists historically?
To stop Russia from attacking its members.

Kinda the reason Ukraine wanted to be one...


Right but they aren't. So the natural law of might makes right applies. Do you agree?


Yes, and Russia is learning that the hard way. Kinda foiled their original plans.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240
10thYrSr
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Teslag said:

10thYrSr said:

Ag with kids said:

10thYrSr said:

I guess TeslAg didn't see the mass grave production near Kiev.

I don't know why these Ukraine supporters deny the nature of war and might. Might makes right.

Sure, it was disgusting that Russia invaded Ukraine. But that is the nature of humanity. No nation has a "right" to exist beyond their abilities to defend their borders.

If Ukraine can't defend themselves then they get absorbed. If anyone has balls to challenge the attacker they can take that from them as well!

Why do you think NATO exists historically?
To stop Russia from attacking its members.

Kinda the reason Ukraine wanted to be one...


Right but they aren't. So the natural law of might makes right applies. Do you agree?


Yes, and Russia is learning that the hard way. Kinda foiled their original plans.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240


Wait, did you just agree that might makes right? You were the number one proponent of the issue counter to that!
Teslag
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AG
On the battlefield yes. In peace time no. Sovereign nations should be respected.
10thYrSr
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[Continue insulting other posters and draw a ban -- Staff]
FJB24
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Quote:

Mercenaries are losing interest
Since February 24, 2022, a projected 11,675 foreign mercenaries from 84 countries have joined the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU). This was stated by the Russian Ministry of Defense on July 10.
The largest numbers of mercenaries apparently came from Poland (over 2,600), the US and Canada (over 900 from each), Georgia (over 800), Great Britain and Romania (over 700 each), Croatia (over 300), as well as from France and the part of Syria controlled by Trkiye (over 200 each).
According to Moscow, the peak influx of foreign mercenaries was from March to April of last year, but after the first casualties, the growth rate suddenly decreased.
The number of foreign mercenaries in Ukraine appears to be rapidly declining. Russia's Ministry of Defense believes that only around 2,000 remain today. It has also claimed that about 5,000 foreign volunteers fled Ukraine after seeing how the authorities treated them.
During interrogations, captured Ukrainian servicemen have reportedly said the commanders of front-line AFU units are not held accountable for losses among mercenaries.
"The Ukrainian command throws units with foreign mercenaries into so-called 'meat-grinder assaults' on Russian positions. Wounded mercenaries are the last to be evacuated, only after all Ukrainian servicemen are removed [from the battlefield]," said the Russian Ministry of Defense.
Good.

These poor misguided suckers/idiots needed another perspective in their news.









End Joe Biden's war.

PlaneCrashGuy
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They were "defending freedom" or something.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
Teslag
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Celebrating American deaths is totally "hey guys I just have a problem with our tax dollars going to Ukraine."
PlaneCrashGuy
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You're allowed to laugh at suckers, including the ones that post here.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
Teslag
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Please we've been told multiple times that "no one is pro Russia" and that "we only care about our tax dollars being wasted".

And now we have posters linking directly to pro russian Twitter accounts celebrating American deaths. Just own it.
FJB24
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Teslag said:

Please we've been told multiple times that "no one is pro Russia" and that "we only care about our tax dollars being wasted".

And now we have posters linking directly to pro russian Twitter accounts celebrating American deaths. Just own it.
Well, first of all, that's not what you claimed was said, is it?
Quote:

Celebrating American deaths is totally "hey guys I just have a problem with our tax dollars going to Ukraine."
Who said 'no one is pro russia?' And who said "we only care about our tax dollars being wasted?"
GAC06
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Weird you're taking over the 6am propaganda drop after nortex caught a ban.
J. Walter Weatherman
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GAC06 said:

Weird you're taking over the 6am propaganda drop after nortex caught a ban.


This happened last time too. I just assumed everyone knew they were the same person.
Teslag
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Dickdelaware said:


Who said 'no one is pro russia?' And who said "we only care about our tax dollars being wasted?"

This is literally the very first sentence of the first post on this thread on page 1. It is the very question that started this entire thread. I'm just offering rebuttals to the subject of the OP and thread.

Quote:

The rabid pro-war posters on here who support endless checks written to Ukraine have asked repeatedly why this is a bad thing and how people can be against supporting Ukraine and also not pro Russia.
texagbeliever
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Whatever.
FJB24
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Teslag said:

Dickdelaware said:


Who said 'no one is pro russia?' And who said "we only care about our tax dollars being wasted?"

This is literally the very first sentence of the first post on this thread on page 1. It is the very question that started this entire thread. I'm just offering rebuttals to the subject of the OP and thread.

Quote:

The rabid pro-war posters on here who support endless checks written to Ukraine have asked repeatedly why this is a bad thing and how people can be against supporting Ukraine and also not pro Russia.

False.

Do you realize that one poster saying 'endless checks' is a bad thing does not mean they, and no one else as well, have other concerns too? Where did the OP, or anyone else who has posted, say the cost of the aid is all they are opposed to/concerned about?
Teslag
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AG
Keep moving those goalposts. You'll be right eventually.


Are now trying to just come out and say you support Russia and hope they win, in addition to cutting off aid? Just to be clear.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Its pretty common for one side to build straw men when they visit this thread. Its better to ignore than engage.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
texagbeliever
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

Its pretty common for one side to build straw men when they visit this thread. Its better to ignore than engage.

Glad to edit this post.
nortex97
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Maybe, maybe not. This thread has had a lot of readers over the past few months, most just don't post much I think.

The truth (well, many truths about the battlefield/people/leadership involved) is going to continue to trickle out to more and more. Myself, I will continue to just ignore certain things/statements.



From simplicius' mailbag this am:

Quote:

Quote:

Do you think that if Ukraine had used it's Western supplied aid to defend the current line rather than launch an offensive they could have kept the situation in some form of stalemate for a fairly long time?
As to the second one, they definitely could have prolonged things as you describe. Just from the standpoint of losses, it would have led to far fewer losses in manpower and materiel. In my last report I had discussed the vast amount of armor losses they're experiencing in the offensive due to having to come 'out into the open' and basically creating a turkey shoot for Russia.

But, you must remember that time is very critical for them and they are running out of support. All the signals are indicating that if Ukraine can't make a big triumphant 'showing' for their masters, then the plug will be pulled and they will be forced to either sign a ceasefire or surrender. This relates to the first question about conditions based on Ukraine's performance.

So that means that it doesn't really matter whether they defended the line or not, the situation gets critical for them either way. In short, they're between a rock and a hard place, a sort of zugzwang or lose-lose situation for themthey could have just turtled up and saved themselves the mass slaughter to an extent, but they they would have lost their support and likely been forced to surrender anyway.

Let's say they just defended the line until late this year, not allowing Russia to advance much but likewise not advancing at all for themselves. They would pretty much look hopeless and no Western official or military leader would remain optimistic about their chances. Ukraine has only survived previously on a very carefully choreographed series of periodic 'triumphs' time-released to the public to keep mainstream headlines 'overlapping' with positive spin. These must be strung together to keep Western hopes from flagging, as well as morale of Ukraine's own troops up. Should the interval of these periodic releases be broken, it can be catastrophic for Kiev's campaign to maintain the West's financial support.

Remember, Western leaders have to sell their support of Kiev to their own publics. These aren't just blank checks being written endlessly no matter what happens in the field. There is some accountability that Western leaders fear and are constantly being questioned about in their own mainstream press and their own public. It's a constant challenge for them to justify sending their citizen's hard-earned money away to some foreign war that has nothing to do with them. That means these Western leaders need a consistent parade of perceived victories to show their constituents to say "see, your money is being well spent! It's creating major battlefield victories for the poor Ukrainians, who are getting closer and closer to democracy and freedom each day because of your support!"

That is my answer to the first question regarding the conditional provisions. Most people forget about how this relationship works between public and official because the officials who consign their public's money to Ukraine put on a very practiced and rehearsed 'show' of false optimism to feign success when in reality, behind the scenes they're terrified of every aspect of the war: from how poorly the AFU are doing and how detrimentally that will reflect on the politician, to how constrained the time-tables are in terms of public the weariness of public support as contrasted with the politician's promises of victory, etc.
This bit is an interesting speculation as well:

Quote:

Quote:

Where will Russia stop? The Dnieper? The Dnieper plus Odessa? Poland?
Of course none of us can know for certain, but I believe it to be the Dnieper plus Odessa, more or less. Something like this is possible:


That seems plausible.
texagbeliever
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I thought they nabbed you. With you I would bet on this thread being valuable. Thanks again for your work.
Teslag
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AG
https://www.businessinsider.com/roblox-minecraft-being-used-to-spread-russian-propoganda-2023-7


Quote:

Russia is setting its sights on a new medium to push propaganda about its invasion of Ukraine: video games.

First-person, interactive games like Roblox increasingly becoming popular in Russia and a source of online fascist content, according to a report from Wired and Minecraft are the new breeding ground to showcase Kremlin values and talking points, according to a new report from The New York Times.

Looks like Russia is mounting the only offensive they can at this time. Children's video games.
TheBonifaceOption
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nortex97 said:

Quote:

Quote:

Where will Russia stop? The Dnieper? The Dnieper plus Odessa? Poland?
Of course none of us can know for certain, but I believe it to be the Dnieper plus Odessa, more or less. Something like this is possible:


That seems plausible.
The Dnieper flowing potable water to Crimea was highest priority for Russia. People forget Kiev dammed the Dnieper to thirst-out Crimea back in 2014. This was an internationally recognized human rights violation from our virtuous Ukrainian allies prior to the "invasion." Russia destroyed the dam in the first 2 hrs of the war.

https://thehill.com/policy/equilibrium-sustainability/597910-how-a-ukrainian-dam-played-a-key-role-in-tensions-with/
GAC06
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Russia restored the water supply when they invaded, then reversed course when they blew up the Nova Kakhovka dam. I guess when your three day invasion turns into a 18+ month debacle you change priorities somewhat.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-dam-blast-could-threaten-crimean-water-supply-says-top-russian-official-2023-06-06/
Teslag
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AG
Maybe Russia should have not invaded Crimea. Novel idea.
nortex97
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Correct (emoji is just in response/agreement). And missing in the map I saw this am too are the oil/gas pipelines and fields, which are generally just in the southwest in the sea down there/on land in the southwest. It will be interesting to see if that stretch is ceded at some point. Those revenues/control of those flows (as well from nuclear facilities) matter in the 'big picture.'

A dozen or more pages back I think we had a good series of links/discussion on those. Partially, this is also why the Russians and Ukrainians alike didn't want to escalate too far into the 'infrastructure wars' as they both aspire to wind up winning/holding those. The damming/water starvation and Kirch Bridge attacks were very surprising/indicative of desperation, as such.

The Ukrainian army is breaking.

Quote:

Casualties, however, are only part of the attrition equation. Over time, they drain the ardor and hope that peak when war is first declared, before blood is spilled. Yet even an exhausted and dispirited army will keep fighting as long as its soldiers remain committed to the cause. Hence, in World War I, armies that would suffer tens of thousands of casualties in a single dayBritain took 60,000 on the first day of the Somme; Italy lost 350,000 in 17 days at Caporettosomehow kept fighting.

Yet commitment will flag and then fail if and when three other factors unfold. Think of these as negative-feedback bellows, inflaming the already negative angst of attrition:

The first negative-feedback bellow is when a war that began full of high hopes seems suddenly unwinnable. Early victories are now old memories. More battles are lost than won, and the costs of battle keep rising to the very threshold of human enduranceand then rise again. The second is when external support from friends and allies begins to evaporate. This is an especially acute negative factor if allied support is the emotional foundation of the army's belief in ultimate victory. Third and finally, those who initiated the war, those who promised a road paved with victory, and who vowed that the world would support the army until victory was wonno matter how long it takesare increasingly seen as liars and deceivers. The armythe entire nationhas been betrayed by its leaders.

All this has descended on Ukraine in the past six weeks.

There have been no victoriesnot even bloody and debilitating wins like in the Fourth Battle of Karkhovfor nearly a year. Western leaders still profess that their support will continue. Yet the Western Alliance now admits it didn't give Ukrainians nearly enough good stuff for even modest tactical gains in their ongoing, sacrificial offensiveand knew it going in. And increasingly, Ukrainian unit-level commanders are accusing higher leaders of simply using them as cannon-fodder to satisfy NATO overlords. Not just platoons, but larger units are surrendering to Russian forces. Morale is cratering.

This is attrition coming to fruition. The fallen empires of 1918Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia, and the Ottomansneeded four years to reach that point. In a third of that time, Ukraine has lost 2.5 percent of its population. This reckoning amounts to what Soviet historians called "irreplaceable losses"meaning, all soldiers who would never, ever return to the ranks.

Indeed, the real Ukrainian losses may well be higher. Reckoning losses is a composite judgment based on a mosaic of serious methodology, as well as incautious NATO, Ukrainian, and Western-media admissions, all synced to the incontestable casualty measure proved in World War I: comparative artillery delivery. This has favored Russia over Ukraine by a factor of up to 10 to 1. Add the unbending devotion of Ukrainian forces to high-casualty assaults, plus Russia's equal devotion to "conservation of force," and the picture looks utterly grim for Kiev. Now new evidence of the scale of the Ukrainian catastrophe, from many vectors, is stacking up: simply by counting Ukrainian obituaries or dead SIM cards.

But this raises the question: Are Russian forces in better shape? Yes. After more than 500 days, the Russian war effort now benefits from very-much lower irrecoverable casualties, by a factor of at least 5 to 1; army-wide confidence stemming from resilience in failure, successful adaptation under fire, and rapidly evolving operational art; a string of success along the front and a surge in strategic momentum; a feeling across the nation that Russia has the men, the tools, and the hard-won battlefield skill to finish the job; and the very sight of Ukraine's last, NATO-built army burning before their very eyes. What adds up for Russia subtracts from Ukraine.
Teslag
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AG
GAC06 said:

Russia restored the water supply when they invaded, then reversed course when they blew up the Nova Kakhovka dam. I guess when your three day invasion turns into a 18+ month debacle you change priorities somewhat.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-dam-blast-could-threaten-crimean-water-supply-says-top-russian-official-2023-06-06/

Debacle? Russia is the "strongest they have ever been" even as their currency now dips to be worth less than the ****ing mexican peso.
J. Walter Weatherman
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TheBonifaceOption said:

nortex97 said:

Quote:

Quote:

Where will Russia stop? The Dnieper? The Dnieper plus Odessa? Poland?
Of course none of us can know for certain, but I believe it to be the Dnieper plus Odessa, more or less. Something like this is possible:


That seems plausible.
The Dnieper flowing potable water to Crimea was highest priority for Russia. People forget Kiev dammed the Dnieper to thirst-out Crimea back in 2014. This was an internationally recognized human rights violation from our virtuous Ukrainian allies prior to the "invasion." Russia destroyed the dam in the first 2 hrs of the war.

https://thehill.com/policy/equilibrium-sustainability/597910-how-a-ukrainian-dam-played-a-key-role-in-tensions-with/


Why would "invasion" be in quotes? Are you implying Russia didn't actually invade?
Teslag
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AG
Perhaps it's just "another perspective. Some probably think they were invited. Just as they were to be welcomed when they rolled into Kiev in February of 2022.
GAC06
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Bro, it's a Special Military Operation to de-nazify the non-country of Ukraine
Teslag
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AG
Uh, I think you meant "the" Ukraine. And to protect Russia's "sPhErE oF iNfLuEnCe"
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