Teslag said:

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You expect Russia to just say oh we are sorry let's pay hundreds of billions to Ukraine in reparations and return to their country.

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Where have I said this? I've been clear that I would fine if they agreed to current fronts as new borders, ceased hostilities, and Ukraine joined NATO to prevent any further aggression on the part of the instigator.

Think Russia would go for that pace?

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Wait why would Ukraine agree to this? They are about to kick Russia out of their country and retake Crimeria with their spring offensive. Are you admitting the spring offensive is a dud and just causing mass casualties on both sides?

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Ukraine lacked the means to defend themselves and their "western allies" lack the means as well.

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And this point borders on the absurd. Since the west began providing arms to Ukraine Russia lost a significant portion of any gains they made and spent an entire winter taking one town. Russia has no ability to push an offensive into Ukraine. And as noted, Article 5 of NATO would be only defense Ukraine would need after a peace is negotiated.

texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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You expect Russia to just say oh we are sorry let's pay hundreds of billions to Ukraine in reparations and return to their country.

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Where have I said this? I've been clear that I would fine if they agreed to current fronts as new borders, ceased hostilities, and Ukraine joined NATO to prevent any further aggression on the part of the instigator.

Think Russia would go for that pace?

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Wait why would Ukraine agree to this? They are about to kick Russia out of their country and retake Crimeria with their spring offensive. Are you admitting the spring offensive is a dud and just causing mass casualties on both sides?

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I believe that retaking Crimea was always a pipe dream, and probably even known by Zelensky. The offensive has slowly retaken land and liberated many small towns and villages, and each of those is worth liberating. In a negotiated peace neither side is going to get everything they want.

We are having an actual discussion, which is what many here want. Do you have anything relevant to add?

Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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You expect Russia to just say oh we are sorry let's pay hundreds of billions to Ukraine in reparations and return to their country.

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Where have I said this? I've been clear that I would fine if they agreed to current fronts as new borders, ceased hostilities, and Ukraine joined NATO to prevent any further aggression on the part of the instigator.

Think Russia would go for that pace?

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Wait why would Ukraine agree to this? They are about to kick Russia out of their country and retake Crimeria with their spring offensive. Are you admitting the spring offensive is a dud and just causing mass casualties on both sides?

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I believe that retaking Crimea was always a pipe dream, and probably even known by Zelensky. The offensive has slowly retaken land and liberated many small towns and villages, and each of those is worth liberating. In a negotiated peace neither side is going to get everything they want.

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So the offensive is a dud. Small towns and villages for another 5% of young adult population and probably 20-30% negativr impact on future GDP. What a brilliant initiative.

Teslag said:

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We are having an actual discussion, which is what many here want. Do you have anything relevant to add?

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I haven't received my Putin talking points yet, so I guess not.

But on topic, I find your responses to texagbeliever very hard to follow and was commenting on the fact they are very hard to follow and making comment they remind me of pretzel logic.

Thus contributing to the discussion with relevant observation.

texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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You expect Russia to just say oh we are sorry let's pay hundreds of billions to Ukraine in reparations and return to their country.

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Where have I said this? I've been clear that I would fine if they agreed to current fronts as new borders, ceased hostilities, and Ukraine joined NATO to prevent any further aggression on the part of the instigator.

Think Russia would go for that pace?

---

Wait why would Ukraine agree to this? They are about to kick Russia out of their country and retake Crimeria with their spring offensive. Are you admitting the spring offensive is a dud and just causing mass casualties on both sides?

---

I believe that retaking Crimea was always a pipe dream, and probably even known by Zelensky. The offensive has slowly retaken land and liberated many small towns and villages, and each of those is worth liberating. In a negotiated peace neither side is going to get everything they want.

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So the offensive is a dud. Small towns and villages for another 5% of young adult population and probably 20-30% negativr impact on future GDP. What a brilliant initiative.

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That is only a question the Ukrainians can answer. It's their home, not mine. If they want to fight and die for their fellow citizens that's their call and their call alone.

Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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You expect Russia to just say oh we are sorry let's pay hundreds of billions to Ukraine in reparations and return to their country.

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Where have I said this? I've been clear that I would fine if they agreed to current fronts as new borders, ceased hostilities, and Ukraine joined NATO to prevent any further aggression on the part of the instigator.

Think Russia would go for that pace?

---

Wait why would Ukraine agree to this? They are about to kick Russia out of their country and retake Crimeria with their spring offensive. Are you admitting the spring offensive is a dud and just causing mass casualties on both sides?

---

I believe that retaking Crimea was always a pipe dream, and probably even known by Zelensky. The offensive has slowly retaken land and liberated many small towns and villages, and each of those is worth liberating. In a negotiated peace neither side is going to get everything they want.

---

So the offensive is a dud. Small towns and villages for another 5% of young adult population and probably 20-30% negativr impact on future GDP. What a brilliant initiative.

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That is only a question the Ukrainians can answer. It's their home, not mine. If they want to fight and die for their fellow citizens that's their call and their call alone.

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So when Ukraine doesn't exist in 20 years because their population emigrated and Russia just is able to annex it then that will be mission success? Sometimes you don't enable people to be stupid even if it is seemingly courageous.

Also for the infosec techie crowd: the life-saving importance of DJI Mavic jailbreaks!

— Dmitri Alperovitch (@DAlperovitch) July 24, 2023

The Ukes are going to finally wind up provoking a responds that takes down the government buildings in Kiev, imho.

Russian officials say two UAVs targeted Moscow this morning. One apparently damaged a Russian military building on Komsomolsky prospekt, which is near the MoD’s NTsUO building. https://t.co/r90crXGfmihttps://t.co/GUIlpDTlwRhttps://t.co/GrcIbjyEHAhttps://t.co/Ld4JcsAN85 pic.twitter.com/11AG1FAKij

— Rob Lee (@RALee85) July 24, 2023

🔊🇷🇺 Russia's defense ministry accused Ukraine of a 'terrorist' drone attack after two buildings in Moscow were hit by drones. Is this an escalation? Listen on Reuters World News daily podcast https://t.co/wnCqKdUsjW pic.twitter.com/efvu31ypji

— Reuters (@Reuters) July 24, 2023

Day by day, inch by inch…

The entire attack was filmed from a resident in Romania. Video can be found here. https://t.co/IYWep3QM0d

— The Intel Crab (@IntelCrab) July 24, 2023

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So when Ukraine doesn't exist in 20 years because their population emigrated and Russia just is able to annex it then that will be mission success?

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That's why NATO and EU membership is key.

Teslag said:

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So when Ukraine doesn't exist in 20 years because their population emigrated and Russia just is able to annex it then that will be mission success?

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That's why NATO and EU membership is key.

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Key to what? They have to become part of other countries in order to remain "sovereign"? Makes no sense.

NATO... makes no sense.

EU... makes sense for those weak arse Euro-****** countries who cannot or do not want to be their own sovereign powers. UK only dabbled in the EU and said no thanks several years ago due to the asinine and weak policies of the EU.

If EU wants to add to their list of weak nations, then let them add Ukraine. It does not involve us. Nothing in Ukraine involves the U.S., except our interest in trying to end the billions of dollars in corrupt payola we send them that enriches Uke oligarchs, US NGOs and the pockets of US politicians.

They shouldn't be in NATO. Feel very strongly about that. It would be playing with fire unnecessarily. Life moved on when it was a soviet state, and if that basically happens again, so be it. The risk vs any strategic gain for us would be entirely out of wack

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Key to what? They have to become part of other countries in order to remain "sovereign"? Makes no sense.

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Nations have formed defensive alliances for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's not a new concept.

Teslag said:

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Key to what? They have to become part of other countries in order to remain "sovereign"? Makes no sense.

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Nations have formed defensive alliances for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's not a new concept.

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Fine, but we literally gain nothing for it regarding Ukraine and for that matter NATO overall.

I also wonder what Ukraine offers anyone in regards to a "defensive alliance".

So NATO is both the cause and the solution to the war in Ukraine?

Is that what I'm hearing?

Teslag said:

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Key to what? They have to become part of other countries in order to remain "sovereign"? Makes no sense.

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Nations have formed defensive alliances for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's not a new concept.

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It's strategically helpful for them. For us, there is very little to be gained and it comes with a boatload of new risk due to being required to defend them.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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So NATO is both the cause and the solution to the war in Ukraine?

Is that what I'm hearing?

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See what I am getting at...?

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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So NATO is both the cause and the solution to the war in Ukraine?

Is that what I'm hearing?

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No, the sole 100% cause was Russia invading a sovereign nation.

fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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So when Ukraine doesn't exist in 20 years because their population emigrated and Russia just is able to annex it then that will be mission success?

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That's why NATO and EU membership is key.

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Key to what? They have to become part of other countries in order to remain "sovereign"? Makes no sense.

NATO... makes no sense.

EU... makes sense for those weak arse Euro-****** countries who cannot or do not want to be their own sovereign powers. UK only dabbled in the EU and said no thanks several years ago due to the asinine and weak policies of the EU.

If EU wants to add to their list of weak nations, then let them add Ukraine. It does not involve us. Nothing in Ukraine involves the U.S., except our interest in trying to end the billions of dollars in corrupt payola we send them that enriches Uke oligarchs, US NGOs and the pockets of US politicians.

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How are they becoming "part of other countries"? NATO and EU are voluntary pacts. It's not like they're being annexed and lose their internal decision making power.

The US has an interest in global stability. Ukraine is, or was, a major exporter of steel, pig iron, aluminum and manganese. Those are all materials on which we are fairly reliant. Steel costs shot up about 50% in the 3 months after Russia invaded and we saw all sorts of production delays while supply chains figured out how to meet demand. The cost of steel alone cost US industry about $2.5-$3.5 billion dollars. The cost of delays or expediting new sources likely cost just as much, if not more. Then there's the whole global grain shortage problem. You think anything good is going to come from a bunch of starving and desperate people in the ME and Africa?

I think these answers just reinforce the belief that the pro-russian side on this thread, just like the Russian Federation, doesn't want a "negotiated peace" or even a "peace" at all. They want complete capitulation on the part of Ukraine. That's not a negotiation at all. They simply won't or refuse to state what Ukraine should get out of any peace.

I like Ukraine

Teslag said:

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I think these answers just reinforce the belief that the pro-russian side on this thread, just like the Russian Federation, doesn't want a "negotiated peace" or even a "peace" at all. They want complete capitulation on the part of Ukraine. That's not a negotiation at all. They simply won't or refuse to state what Ukraine should get out of any peace.

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This is absolute manure. Uke's will need to be prepared to cut off an eastern hunk and the Russkies will need to be satisfied with the hunk they get. It was always gonna end this way, so this side you are saying wants war actually sees all of the death and destruction as a complete waste and grift

ABATTBQ11 said:

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fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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So when Ukraine doesn't exist in 20 years because their population emigrated and Russia just is able to annex it then that will be mission success?

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That's why NATO and EU membership is key.

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Key to what? They have to become part of other countries in order to remain "sovereign"? Makes no sense.

NATO... makes no sense.

EU... makes sense for those weak arse Euro-****** countries who cannot or do not want to be their own sovereign powers. UK only dabbled in the EU and said no thanks several years ago due to the asinine and weak policies of the EU.

If EU wants to add to their list of weak nations, then let them add Ukraine. It does not involve us. Nothing in Ukraine involves the U.S., except our interest in trying to end the billions of dollars in corrupt payola we send them that enriches Uke oligarchs, US NGOs and the pockets of US politicians.

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How are they becoming "part of other countries"? NATO and EU are voluntary pacts. It's not like they're being annexed and lose their internal decision making power.

The US has an interest in global stability. Ukraine is, or was, a major exporter of steel, pig iron, aluminum and manganese. Those are all materials on which we are fairly reliant. Steel costs shot up about 50% in the 3 months after Russia invaded and we saw all sorts of production delays while supply chains figured out how to meet demand. The cost of steel alone cost US industry about $2.5-$3.5 billion dollars. The cost of delays or expediting new sources likely cost just as much, if not more. Then there's the whole global grain shortage problem. You think anything good is going to come from a bunch of starving and desperate people in the ME and Africa?

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EU is not voluntary once you sign up, see Brexit. And see Ireland folks not being able to harvest and sell peat for fuel as not having any internal decision making power.

For NATO, is there not a "an attack on one is an attack on all" or some such nonsense? Seems like if France decides to FAFO with someone in the Middle East then we get dragged in to the consequences of bad decision making by the French.

US can enforce global stability without propping up the Ukes and pissing off the Russians. See Trump foreign policy for reference.

Teslag said:

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So when Ukraine doesn't exist in 20 years because their population emigrated and Russia just is able to annex it then that will be mission success?

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That's why NATO and EU membership is key.

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Nothing says sovereign quite like having to submit policies to a foreign entity.

But we all know Western Europe is altruistic and good and not globalist progressives.

texagbeliever said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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If Putin is offered some sort of an off-ramp that his ego will allow him to accept, he'll take it.

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From your article. This is incredibly nave. One thing I've learned that the pro-Russian side does is push for "peace" but they never outline what that peace entails and what it would take for Putin to agree to this "peace". Further, under what terms do they believe Ukraine is entitled to keep fighting?

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Ukraine has agreed to "peace" deals with Russia before. In 2014, they signed the Minsk and Minsk II agreements that ended hostilities...

And yet here we are with Russia knee deep up their ass again.

How long would the next "peace" agreement last? By that, I mean, how long before Russia would want to invade Ukraine again...

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So the only option is to nuke the Kremlin? Seriously if no peace deal is tolerable then that should be your stance.

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Congrats on building one hell of a strawman.

So, if Ukraine doesn't want to negotiate peace, the US, UK, or France has to nuke Moscow?

Where in the **** did you get THAT?

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Peace deals throughout all of history are broken left and right once one side feels like they gain a new advantage and thus the terms are no longer reflective of the current means of war. Which is what happened when Biden took office and covid hit.

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So, why would Ukraine agree to negotiate peace? They already have multiple examples of Russia breaking those agreements. Why do it again?

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If you want to blame the war on someone blame China (Trump voice) and the Chinese political puppets in America, France, Germany and UK.

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No. I put the blame for the war SQUARELY on Putin and Russia.

Teslag said:

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I think these answers just reinforce the belief that the pro-russian side on this thread, just like the Russian Federation, doesn't want a "negotiated peace" or even a "peace" at all. They want complete capitulation on the part of Ukraine. That's not a negotiation at all. They simply won't or refuse to state what Ukraine should get out of any peace.

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Your story went from:
Russia is about to assassinate Putin
To Russia's Ruble is about to collapse
To Russia is about to run out of fuel
To Russia is barely holding on to a sliver during the winter they are basically defeated
To Ukraine is about to launch a Spring offensive and annihilate them
To Ukraine is about to launch a late spring offensive and annihilate them
To Ukraine is going to launch a summer offensive and annihilate them
To well Ukraine isn't gaining much more ground on their offensive but the leaders are noble heroes for sending the young adult working class to die so they can grift millions of more dollars.

Go through. Read your posts on this thread. That is the timeline. You should be amazed at how many on this thread called the ending while you were in phase 1 or 2 of Russia Russia mode. Then you should ask why was I wrong. Because you could flip a coin on which side to take and likely be more accurate than your current method of choosing the "right" political side.

texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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You expect Russia to just say oh we are sorry let's pay hundreds of billions to Ukraine in reparations and return to their country.

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Where have I said this? I've been clear that I would fine if they agreed to current fronts as new borders, ceased hostilities, and Ukraine joined NATO to prevent any further aggression on the part of the instigator.

Think Russia would go for that pace?

---

Wait why would Ukraine agree to this? They are about to kick Russia out of their country and retake Crimeria with their spring offensive. Are you admitting the spring offensive is a dud and just causing mass casualties on both sides?

---

I believe that retaking Crimea was always a pipe dream, and probably even known by Zelensky. The offensive has slowly retaken land and liberated many small towns and villages, and each of those is worth liberating. In a negotiated peace neither side is going to get everything they want.

---

So the offensive is a dud. Small towns and villages for another 5% of young adult population and probably 20-30% negativr impact on future GDP. What a brilliant initiative.

---

That is only a question the Ukrainians can answer. It's their home, not mine. If they want to fight and die for their fellow citizens that's their call and their call alone.

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So when Ukraine doesn't exist in 20 years because their population emigrated and Russia just is able to annex it then that will be mission success? Sometimes you don't enable people to be stupid even if it is seemingly courageous.

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What Is YOUR DEFINITION of the peace deal that Ukraine should accept RIGHT NOW?

fka ftc said:

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Anytime I get into a discussion with Teslag it always devolves into their attempted employ of logic. To which the best response is...

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What Is YOUR DEFINITION of the peace deal that Ukraine should accept RIGHT NOW?

fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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So when Ukraine doesn't exist in 20 years because their population emigrated and Russia just is able to annex it then that will be mission success?

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That's why NATO and EU membership is key.

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Key to what? They have to become part of other countries in order to remain "sovereign"? Makes no sense.

NATO... makes no sense.

EU... makes sense for those weak arse Euro-****** countries who cannot or do not want to be their own sovereign powers. UK only dabbled in the EU and said no thanks several years ago due to the asinine and weak policies of the EU.

If EU wants to add to their list of weak nations, then let them add Ukraine. It does not involve us. Nothing in Ukraine involves the U.S., except our interest in trying to end the billions of dollars in corrupt payola we send them that enriches Uke oligarchs, US NGOs and the pockets of US politicians.

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Joining NATO and/or the EU doesn't mean they're becoming part of other countries.

We're in NATO and last I checked, we weren't part of another country. France is part of the EU and also isn't part of another country.

Ukraine joining NATO gains them defensive securities to prevent Russia from what they have continued to do in the past, which is break peace agreements with Ukraine and invade and absorb territory.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Key to what? They have to become part of other countries in order to remain "sovereign"? Makes no sense.

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Nations have formed defensive alliances for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's not a new concept.

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The Roman Empire was basically one (well, two if you want to break them into the East and West empires) HUGE defensive alliance...

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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So NATO is both the cause and the solution to the war in Ukraine?

Is that what I'm hearing?

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NATO is not the cause.

That is Putin's propaganda.

Lots of folks seem to like repeating it, though.

Ag with kids said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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You expect Russia to just say oh we are sorry let's pay hundreds of billions to Ukraine in reparations and return to their country.

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Where have I said this? I've been clear that I would fine if they agreed to current fronts as new borders, ceased hostilities, and Ukraine joined NATO to prevent any further aggression on the part of the instigator.

Think Russia would go for that pace?

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Wait why would Ukraine agree to this? They are about to kick Russia out of their country and retake Crimeria with their spring offensive. Are you admitting the spring offensive is a dud and just causing mass casualties on both sides?

---

I believe that retaking Crimea was always a pipe dream, and probably even known by Zelensky. The offensive has slowly retaken land and liberated many small towns and villages, and each of those is worth liberating. In a negotiated peace neither side is going to get everything they want.

---

So the offensive is a dud. Small towns and villages for another 5% of young adult population and probably 20-30% negativr impact on future GDP. What a brilliant initiative.

---

That is only a question the Ukrainians can answer. It's their home, not mine. If they want to fight and die for their fellow citizens that's their call and their call alone.

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So when Ukraine doesn't exist in 20 years because their population emigrated and Russia just is able to annex it then that will be mission success? Sometimes you don't enable people to be stupid even if it is seemingly courageous.

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What Is YOUR DEFINITION of the peace deal that Ukraine should accept RIGHT NOW?

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Well now it is bad news for Ukraine. They have very little threat and Russia has to love the damage thus causes to western Europe and America. The time to negotiate wasn't after your major spring offensive failed and your country's morale dropped and western financiers started pulling back.

They should have negotiated land gains and some pipeline access back during the winter when things looked less certain.

Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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Key to what? They have to become part of other countries in order to remain "sovereign"? Makes no sense.

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Nations have formed defensive alliances for hundreds, if not thousands of years. It's not a new concept.

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The Roman Empire was basically one (well, two if you want to break them into the East and West empires) HUGE defensive alliance...

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Yeah and the empire also was vulnerable to civil wars because the 2 empires would end up fighting for Supreme command. See Ceaser.