Teslag said:

---

Quote:

---

So you think that Ukraine should just give Russia whatever they want to end the war? Where is the line in which Ukraine should reject and keep fighting?

---

Why do you keep dodging this question?

---

I don't have a worthwhile answer for an extremely complex question so instead of posting drivel i let it pass. You should try it.

It's actually a very simple question with very simple answers.

Either you think there's a line in which Ukraine is justified in continued fighting or you don't.

Teslag said:

---

It's actually a very simple question with very simple answers.

Either you think there's a line in which Ukraine is justified in continued fighting or you don't.

---

No it's not simple. It depends entirely on the means of winning the war and the strategic objectives most important to both sides. The fact you think it is as simple as a longitude latitude or who owned it last is the problem.

Ukraine's strategic objective is to simply exist.

Teslag said:

---

Ukraine's strategic objective is to simply exist.

---

That's odd. Israelites existed under Egyptian, Syrian, Babylonian and Roman rule but they still exist today. In fact Ukraine existed under USSR but somehow still is able to exist. So apparently sovereignty and existing aren't one and the same. So your strategic objective doesn't require them to fight and win this war to achieve it. So why are you encouraging the fighting?

I think you are fully aware that I mean exist as a sovereign nation. Just don't accuse someone of trolling again without that mirror handy.

Well if they were once a part of Russia but were able to gain independence because they didn't all die resisting maybe they should use that plan again. You are cool with them all dying because it's their right to be dumb and impatient. Which it is but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. No matter what all the Rambo keyboard warriors type up.

If 4 or 5 posters went over to the Ukraine safespace thread all day long and posted about how any Ukraine progress is just propaganda and that Russia was really winning and "stacking bodies of dead Ukes" they would earn a multi day ban pronto.

This doesn't need to be a "safespace" for a counter perspective, but holy hell it's always the same **** from the same 4 or 5 people, on particular one who loves vaccines, responding to every post about any criticism of Ukraine and the Great Z is parroted straight from Moscow.

It's tired, it's old and it needs To be addressed.

texagbeliever said:

---

Well if they were once a part of Russia but were able to gain independence because they didn't all die resisting maybe they should use that plan again. You are cool with them all dying because it's their right to be dumb and impatient. Which it is but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. No matter what all the Rambo keyboard warriors type up.

---

You think they should use the plan again where they exist under a brutal Moscow regime, and suffer things like the Holodomor, and then maybe gain "independence" after 70 years?

That's your solution?

Teslag said:

---

texagbeliever said:

---

Well if they were once a part of Russia but were able to gain independence because they didn't all die resisting maybe they should use that plan again. You are cool with them all dying because it's their right to be dumb and impatient. Which it is but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. No matter what all the Rambo keyboard warriors type up.

---

You think they should use the plan again where they exist under a brutal Moscow regime, and suffer things like the Holodomor, and then maybe gain "independence" after 70 years?

That's your solution?

---

Well Russia won't repeat that because they aren't the USSR. Ukraine needs a strong USA which they would more likely get if they ceded the effort and lost. A powerful, republican led USA would be able to actually hurt Russia instead of inactive policy after policy that surprise helps Russia. See war on Oil.

So let men follow here…

Ukraine should cede their country and lose. And this will make the US stronger. Which in turn will be better for Ukraine, which would then a part of Russia? Our enemy?

Teslag said:

---

So let men follow here…

Ukraine should cede their country and lose. And this will make the US stronger. Which in turn will be better for Ukraine, which would then a part of Russia? Our enemy?

---

Well intelligent people know that just because a people or land is currently owned by a country doesn't mean that is always going to be the case. You know when the Nazis took over France we didn't treat the French like they were nazis. Crazy stuff.

No but we did spend decades ridiculing them for surrendering. And we also sacrificed blood and treasure to liberate them when they were unable to do it themselves.

Trump Releases Video Opposing Ukrainian Entry To NATO https://t.co/JBDUDPzotr

— Team Trump (Text TRUMP to 88022) (@TeamTrump) July 21, 2023

Interesting.

nortex97 said:

---

Trump Releases Video Opposing Ukrainian Entry To NATO https://t.co/JBDUDPzotr

— Team Trump (Text TRUMP to 88022) (@TeamTrump) July 21, 2023

Interesting.

---

There is no reason for NATO to continue other than a semi-permanent grifting mechanism shifting US resources to other countries who should be providing it on their own and to each other. We have the UN for global peace initiatives and many of the NATO countries have the EU for their economic interests.

It is NOT the role of the US to provide security and economic assistance to the world when their thanks in return is criticism of the US saying we are not doing enough.

Defund NATO.

Teslag said:

---

No but we did spend decades ridiculing them for surrendering. And we also sacrificed blood and treasure to liberate them when they were unable to do it themselves.

---

So we have to send money and treasure to the Ukes because we made fun of the French for surrendering to the Nazis? That is some ultra solid logic right there. Do you go to bed at night exchanging WhatsApp messages with the Vindman boys so you can run here and post more Ukraine policy hot takes?

Yes, I agree that a solid argument exists that the US should exit Nato, partly to ensure it can simply function as a European security organization, or they can morph an EU/EC body into an Army, as the Germans/French have hinted at wanting to do for some time now.

The marshall plan worked, the Cold War is over, and Europe should be motivated (and is wealthy enough) to take care of itself without recrimination or 'conspiracies' about US hegemony/interference. This isn't an isolationist perspective but rather a concern as to cost:benefit and recognition of the sovereignty of others.

It would also enable us to re-dedicate resources toward our own sorely lacking border security.

As today's minor update, Russia has continued to strike for a 3rd day at agricultural infrastructure/grain/export facilities around Odessa in retaliation for the bridge strike (Al Jazeera links):

Quote:

---

Russia hits grain terminals in southern Ukraine: Governor
Russian missiles hit grain terminals at an agricultural enterprise in the Odesa region in a fourth successive night of air strikes on southern Ukraine, the regional governor has said.
"Unfortunately, the grain terminals of an agricultural enterprise in Odesa region were hit. The enemy destroyed 100 tons of peas and 20 tons of barley," Odesa's regional governor Oleh Kiper said, adding that two people had been hurt in the attack.
Kiper said Russia had attacked with Kalibr cruise missiles that were fired from the Black Sea at low altitudes to bypass air defence systems.
Photographs from the scene showed a fire burning among crumpled metal buildings that appeared to be storehouses and a badly damaged fire-fighting vehicle.
Moscow says it has been carrying out "retaliatory strikes" this week after quitting the Black Sea grain export deal and accusing Ukraine of being behind blasts on Monday on a bridge that is used to transport Russian military supplies.

---

Impacts:

Quote:

---

Russia's exit from grain deal puts focus on Asia's food prices
Russia's withdrawal from the Black Sea grain deal is expected to drive food prices higher in Asia but the impact will be muted for now, analysts say, due to reduced imports from Ukraine and increased supply from other countries.
Under the Black Sea deal, Asia received 46 percent of shipments of grains and other foodstuffs, while Western Europe and Africa took 40 percent and 12 percent, respectively.
China has been the largest single recipient of exports, according to UN figures, taking 7.7 million tonnes or nearly one-quarter of the total. China's imports included 5.6 million tonnes of corn, 1.8 million tonnes of sunflower seed meal, 370,000 tonnes of sunflower oil and 340,000 tonnes of barley.

---

The Biden informant's FD1023 some noted might have some information 'lost in translation from the spoken russian.' But of course, the Bidens would never deal with Russians when selling out our country, right?

An interesting perspective (I believe author is a former US Army artillery officer, I sometimes find former commissioned officers provide valuable military analyses/perspectives):

The Russo-Japanese War showed exactly how combat was in the early 20th century and presaged the character of the First World War - both the Western Front's static fighting around Port Arthur and the Eastern Front's blood-soaked mobile warfare in Manchuria. pic.twitter.com/21bXUYKEoj

— Armchair Warlord (@ArmchairW) July 21, 2023

The war also provided a stark warning of the fragility of the Russian Empire, with the Russian Revolution of 1905 sparked in part by news of humiliating defeats at the hands of the Japanese.

(shots from the classic Soviet film Battleship Potemkin) pic.twitter.com/YY9nvT4J0M

— Armchair Warlord (@ArmchairW) July 21, 2023

Those conclusions that were drawn frequently reinforced preconceived notions of warfare. The French saw bloody but successful Japanese bayonet assaults, preceded by fire and careful infiltration, and came away thinking their own - far cruder - tactical methods had been validated. pic.twitter.com/9AfMnbhyCT

— Armchair Warlord (@ArmchairW) July 21, 2023

The Austrians completely ignored the war's lessons on cover and concealment, and drew their artillery up like they were fighting Napoleon in 1914.

Russian artillery, firing indirectly from defilade positions they had learned at great cost to use, simply wiped them out. pic.twitter.com/10OJv5OTdX

— Armchair Warlord (@ArmchairW) July 21, 2023

Drones? A curiosity.
Electronic warfare? An afterthought.
Russian artillery? Crude.
Trenches? We'll -attack- them.
Mass casualties? We have better medkits.
Russian air defenses? We have stealth.
Conscription? Undemocratic.
Industrial mobilization? Soviet inefficiency. pic.twitter.com/jhk6bv6BrL

— Armchair Warlord (@ArmchairW) July 21, 2023

More analyses;

has exploited Ukraine's zeal and tenacity. And to this end Ukraine is dying literally. They have depleted their reproductive demographic. They are tittering on the cusp of not ever being able to replenish their population without large influx of immigration. No matter how you

— Kiyoshi (Putin Personally Signs My Checks) (@StormTorx) July 20, 2023

equipment, armor, vehicles, aircraft and other metrics are taken into account. Nato and the west knew of and understood Ukraine's tenacity and willingness to fight, knowing this it felt they had a good chance of breaking Russia by exhausting Ukraine -- To The Last Man !!

— Kiyoshi (Putin Personally Signs My Checks) (@StormTorx) July 20, 2023

Thanks for the history, Nortex.

I'm most fascinated by the population/demographics figures. If "existing is winning" as the disabled have proposed, then I guess you could pretend to feel good about their situation. But long term, even if they can save a plot of land for themselves: their people, their culture, and their way of life is already lost and gone forever.

This thread has amused me tremendously, I want to thank all contributors. One of my favorite angles of attack on it/me is that 'well that's just Russian propaganda. Your sources are not good enough/just bloggers/lone opinions/not properly sourced.'

Let's keep in mind our President has claimed his son's laptop documenting their mutual criminality with Russia was just russian propaganda, as he now wages a proxy war v.s Russia, supposedly. This should be watched in it's entirety, and is completely relevant to Russia-Ukraine today:

BREAKING: Journalist Emma-Jo Morris (@EmmaJoNYC), who broke the Hunter Biden laptop story for @NYPost but was immediately censored by the state on social media in an attempt to influence the 2020 election, just delivered a mind-boggling testimony on the extent of censorship in… pic.twitter.com/FSBuQ5tfwW

— Simon Ateba (@simonateba) July 20, 2023

I'll defer to no one's opinion as to a need to go to an MSM/reliable 'intelligence agency' source like ISW/CIA/FBI/DoD mouthpieces. Not now, or ever. This war is scandalous, and against American interests.

Anyway, on to credible, honest analyses; "Why the counter-offensive is failing"

Quote:

---

It's not that Zelensky's forces are "going slowly" forward, it's that they aren't attaining any of their initial tactical objectives on the way to the Azov coast and it's precisely because the combat fundamentals necessary to win are largely (and in some cases entirely) absent. They flatly don't have the human resources or physical infrastructure necessary to succeed.

Now, it is always possible that Russia could suffer sudden political collapse, such as what happened in 1917, and Ukraine could still emerge successful. That, however, is extremely unlikely and Kyiv would be unwise to base their future hopes upon such an event.

To continue trying will tragically result in yet more UAF troops being killed, Ukrainian cities destroyed, and push prospects for peace ever further away.

On Monday, Pentagon Deputy Press Secretary Sabrina Singh said that Ukraine has "the combat power to be successful on the battlefield. They have what it needs to be successful in the counteroffensive." Such optimism is grossly out of kilter with combat realities. The United States should stop making such plainly inaccurate statements and instead start to put real diplomatic efforts into ending this war.

---

Impeach biden, end the war.

And yet, yesterday you put forth an article which said the war is winnable for Ukraine and we need to stay the course.


Make up your mind. Unless of course you just cherry pick the parts that fit your bias. You'd never do that.

nortex97 said:

---

This thread has amused me tremendously, I want to thank all contributors. One of my favorite angles of attack on it/me is that 'well that's just Russian propaganda. Your sources are not good enough/just bloggers/lone opinions/not properly sourced.'

Let's keep in mind our President has claimed his son's laptop documenting their mutual criminality with Russia was just russian propaganda, as he now wages a proxy war v.s Russia, supposedly. This should be watched in it's entirety, and is completely relevant to Russia-Ukraine today:

BREAKING: Journalist Emma-Jo Morris (@EmmaJoNYC), who broke the Hunter Biden laptop story for @NYPost but was immediately censored by the state on social media in an attempt to influence the 2020 election, just delivered a mind-boggling testimony on the extent of censorship in… pic.twitter.com/FSBuQ5tfwW

— Simon Ateba (@simonateba) July 20, 2023

I'll defer to no one's opinion as to a need to go to an MSM/reliable 'intelligence agency' source like ISW/CIA/FBI/DoD mouthpieces. Not now, or ever. This war is scandalous, and against American interests.

Anyway, on to credible, honest analyses; "Why the counter-offensive is failing"

Quote:

---

It's not that Zelensky's forces are "going slowly" forward, it's that they aren't attaining any of their initial tactical objectives on the way to the Azov coast and it's precisely because the combat fundamentals necessary to win are largely (and in some cases entirely) absent. They flatly don't have the human resources or physical infrastructure necessary to succeed.

Now, it is always possible that Russia could suffer sudden political collapse, such as what happened in 1917, and Ukraine could still emerge successful. That, however, is extremely unlikely and Kyiv would be unwise to base their future hopes upon such an event.

To continue trying will tragically result in yet more UAF troops being killed, Ukrainian cities destroyed, and push prospects for peace ever further away.

On Monday, Pentagon Deputy Press Secretary Sabrina Singh said that Ukraine has "the combat power to be successful on the battlefield. They have what it needs to be successful in the counteroffensive." Such optimism is grossly out of kilter with combat realities. The United States should stop making such plainly inaccurate statements and instead start to put real diplomatic efforts into ending this war.

---

Impeach biden, end the war.

---

Also 2016 was Russia interference. That narrative played out for all of Trump's term. And it was proven to have originated from Clinton and Obama. The stupidity in loyalty to west news is mind boggling stupid.

Correct, the Clinton-Steele dossier was all russian propaganda, to gin up hatred of Russia/Russians, which is still being leveraged (less effectively/broadly) into the American media/public today by the swamp/Democrats.

And don't get me wrong, the Russian government does a lot of 'bad' things and is not a good actor in very many respects (there's a whole thread devoted to that, not my job to parrot their hatred's/passions), including various war crimes in Ukraine they have tacitly endorsed/directly committed, but in general again the two combatants are both guilty of war crimes/abuses of their people and others far and wide. It behooves all to be aware that the ruling class of Russians are long-time partners of the Democrats/Bidens/Chinese, and not just in trafficking girls/prostitutes/drugs/money for Hunter et al.

Anyway, interesting to see the brits backing away a bit as well from 'forever war' or being anti-Trump, who I suppose with the release this week of all the Biden treason/pay-for-play with Ukraine, is much less likely to tolerate the Zelensky grift/demands than the Dem-CCP folks will/would:

I asked UK Foreign Secy @JamesCleverly about the impact of a 2nd Trump term on the war in Ukraine and here’s what he said:https://t.co/xP536fwZb8 pic.twitter.com/V1rQFDibPg

— Martha MacCallum (@marthamaccallum) July 21, 2023

Also, just for posterity, I am posting that guy talking here…not because I agree with everything he says or does etc., but because it is on topic, informed, and an interesting/different perspective than many see/rejoice about etc.

Questioning mainstream media is nothing but Russia propaganda to some trolly trollers that may post here.

Read an article today where it said Russia has laid so many mines that UKE will never be able to overcome this to try and kick Russia complelty out of the UKE see if I can find the article.


Former Special Forces engineer says Russian minefields are unlike anything he has ever seen and battling these hidden death traps is 'exhausting' (msn.com)

Quote:

---

he casualties that the Ukrainians are suffering on this offensive," Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff US Army Gen. Mark Milley said this week, "they're from minefields minefields that are covered with direct fire from anti-tank hunter-killer teams, that sort of thing."

"The real problem is the minefields," he said, and if there's no change, Ukraine could find itself stuck in a war of attrition in which terrible infantry battles and artillery duels grind away at both armies.

---

fka ftc said:

---

Questioning mainstream media is nothing but Russia propaganda to some trolly trollers that may post here.

---

One can easily question mainstream media without having to prop up and support Russian propaganda and state affiliated media.

Ryan Hendrickson - Tip of the Spear

I have posted his stuff a few times and finally read his book, he is so passionate about IEDs/landmines since he stepped on one in Afghanistan and should have lost his leg, took like 3 dozen surgeries for him to get healthy enough to go back to active duty. Retired Green Beret engineer so his job was to find and unarm/destroy IEDs. One of the guys volunteering with him lost his leg from the knee down he stepped on a mine. He shows you how to disarm a mine in his videos and how he does it over and over again is insane.

I have said on here that Ukraine can't keep pushing forward in most locations without sustaining substantial men and vehicle losses. Well when you have fields with thousands of mines in them you can't just drive a tank through them which Ukraine is trying to do. With that number you can't just demine a field in a week and keep going. And you cannot train guys in a day or you will have guys make mistakes and be added to the casualty list.

Quote:

---

In one field, for instance, Hendrickson and his team found over 700 anti-tank mines, though they estimated there may have been thousands in total. That was just one field.

---

Quote:

---

The Russians have "the capability to lay millions and millions of land mines, and they do," he said, stressing that "the biggest shaping factor of this war is land mines."

"Everything is landmined," he said in the interview, explaining that in Ukraine right now "all the farm fields are landmined, all the routes are landmined," and, in sectors along the front, "if the routes aren't landmined, then artillery has target reference points along the routes."

---

Yes it is horrible. Dumb mines that sit around waiting to wound/kill/maim someone for decades.

As I've linked before it's even worse because, once those vast minefields are cleared nowadays the Russians (and Ukrainians with the RAAMS etc. stuff) have the systems like ISDM to lay mines remotely via salvo's to just make traversing a geographic stretch or clearing it again treacherous.

what you see is the russians performing distance mining of Kharkiv region with the latest remote mining system called "Zemledeliye" (Agriculture)... it lays mines at a distance of 5 to 15 km.

needless to say, that this is meant to kill civilians and make farming near impossible. pic.twitter.com/dqUZ4dDYes

— Roman Motychak - ATACMS ASAP 🇺🇦 (@motytchak) March 27, 2022

There's no 'win' against this, akin to the scene in saving private Ryan with some blast line that clears a field, despite videos claiming otherwise.

Some have speculated how 'stupid' both sides are to now be stuck in trench warfare but that is what a lack of AirPower, effective modern remote mining, and powerful field artillery and drone systems have created. As per my posts the past couple days much of this is just an 'experiment' to various think tanks/powers using the Ukrainians/Russians as lab rats for future/evolving doctrines and weapons.

Teslag said:

---

fka ftc said:

---

Questioning mainstream media is nothing but Russia propaganda to some trolly trollers that may post here.

---

One can easily question mainstream media without having to prop up and support Russian propaganda and state affiliated media.

---

You are right. And folks like nortex and myself have done it since day one of this conflict but all you can retort with are ad homs claiming Russian propagandists and Putin puppets. Try and do better and engage in discussion versus attacking those with a different view on the conflict than the one you have and your repeated demands to stack bodies of Russian conscripted soldiers.

So, some minor updates today. Russia arrested what could be I guess considered an agitator (and his friends?), Strelkov, who has been pushing for a more aggressive war strategy. Ok. True believers in one team vs. the other here tend to…well they tend to be blinded by/to the realities, imho. Mouthing off on an extended basis about Putin from Moscow strikes me as…well, not bright.

More significantly, Putin discussed the desperation of the UFA folks and foreign fighters, as well as a certain Suwalki gap.

Quote:

---

Most interesting today was Putin's remarks on the Polish situation, where he echoed much of what I've been writing about recently. In short, the situation is turning dire with Ukrainian 'meat' running out, Polish-Lithuanian meat will be next up on the menu as far as NATO's gameplan is concerned:

This is striking because it appears to be the first time that Putin himself has addressed this issue in such a forthright and direct manner. The fact that Putin himself is addressing it so openly now, after months of SVR and other lower end officials laying hints, means that things must really be spiraling in this direction.
Note that, inherent to Putin's remarks above, appears to be a not-so-subtle 'threat' toward Poland, where he offered a reminder that some of its lands were in fact generously gifted by Stalinthe clear implication being: the lord giveth and the lord taketh away.

Given Putin's very robust words above, the repositioning of Wagner troops to Belarus, as well as the recent statements of the Duma defense committee chair about Wagner's Suwalki Gap purpose, this gives a new dimension to these developments.

In line with the above video, below is a summarization of Putin's main points from his speech:

Quote:

---

Kyiv's Western handlers make no secret of their disappointment with the results of the so-called counter-offensive.
Ukraine is depleting its mobilization resource. Stockpiles of Western weapons are depleted and technological capabilities are limited.
The command of the special operation shows professionalism, soldiers and officers courageously perform their duty, and Western "invulnerable" equipment burns perfectly on the battlefield.
Public opinion in Ukraine is gradually changing, and the population is "gradually coming to its senses", and attitudes in Europe are also changing.
Dragging out the Ukrainian conflict is beneficial to US elites.
The independence of Poland after the Second World War was largely restored thanks to the participation of the USSR.
The western territories of today's Poland are Stalin's gift to the Poles.
Russia sees that the Kyiv regime is ready to use any means to "preserve its corrupt nature."
Traitors in Ukraine are ready to "open the gates" for foreign influential forces in the West and sell the country again.
Polish leaders appear to be seeking to form a coalition under the NATO umbrella to intervene in the conflict in Ukraine and take a large piece of territory for themselves.
Poland also wants to seize part of the land in Belarus, unleashing a war by the Poles against the Union State automatically implies a war against Russia.
Putin instructed the head of the Foreign Intelligence Service, Naryshkin, to monitor Poland's plans for Ukraine.

---

---

This does make some sense, and I think this would be preferable almost as an outcome for the remaining residents of western Ukraine:

Quote:

---

One possibility I can seewhich is in line with my earliest predictions from the very first two or three reports I made hereis that once Russia captures the Donbass or everything east of the Dnieper, if at that point the AFU still has the morale and wherewithal to continue the fight, they could retreat to the right bank and make a bastion of it there. Then, Poland can enter in the west of the country under a special deal with the collapsing Ukrainian government which will basically quid pro quo trade sovereignty of the western lands for 'Polish protection'.

Note that months ago I already reported on rumors that Poland could offer to "temporarily" take some of the western territories under its full governmental protection ostensibly to prevent Russia from 'attacking' them. This is one of the oldest tricks in the book used by the likes of Erdogan in Idlib and North Syria, for instance, to actuate a full annexation of a desired land under the guise of some sort of 'temporary' protectorate. This is the most likely way that Poland would enter the conflict in the medium term future, at least initiallythen it could develop from there depending on how Russia reacts to this and other exigencies.

---

The recognition of the myth's failure by former propagandists like Richard Kemp at the Telegraph is bemusing.

Ukraine couldn't resist taking advantage of the grain deal to stage two strikes on the Kerch Straight bridge.

The strikes accomplished nothing strategic, only succeeding in a temporary reduction of road bridge capacity, while the rail bridge was unaffected.

The grain deal was… pic.twitter.com/vxntrVvfKH

— Chebureki Man (@CheburekiMan) July 21, 2023

Architects of the Ukraine proxy war. pic.twitter.com/mqGMx8g75h

— @amuse (@amuse) July 21, 2023

Some more sanity in analyses leaking out in the media, even if not quite grasping the full damage to what is left of Ukraine that has already been done;

Quote:

---

For the purpose of this analysis, I will focus on three of the most profound and pervasive costs: the damage to Ukraine's agricultural sector, the migration of millions of its citizens abroad, and perhaps most important of all, the trauma done to its young male population as a result of fighting the war. The longer the war continues, the worse the problem and the deeper the consequences for Kyiv long term.

There is no shortage of American and European cheerleaders encouraging Ukraine to fight on, no matter the cost, "for as long as it takes." These well-meaning supporters typically argue that the Ukrainians themselves want to fight, so enabling them to continue doing so seems justified, if not noble.

I have long argued there is no reasonable path to military victory for Ukraine, and thus providing open-ended support won't result in a Ukrainian victory but will only prolong the war (akin to keeping a patient alive via life-support when the person won't be able to survive off the machine). Yet whether my assessment proves correct or the optimism of many U.S. leaders eventually wins out, the long-term cost to the Ukrainian people is certain and egregious. We need to be clear-eyed about what our support for the war is going to mean for Ukraine after the fighting stops.

---

Another somewhat interesting blogger summary, Rob Campbell:

Quote:

---

Ukraine's Offensive
The Ukrainian army continues offensive operations but by no stretch of the imagination could it be described as being engaged in an 'offensive'. Offensives move forward towards pre-determined objectives whereas Ukraine's offensive operations are not going anywhere because they don't have the strength to go anywhere. According to The Military Chronicle Ukraine is reinforcing the Orekhovsky area near Rabotino so maybe we can expect an attack from this direction soon.

The Russian Offensive?

With the massive failure of the Ukrainian offensive and declining material support from the West there is much speculation about a Russian offensive. Some people are panicking that it hasn't happened yet: that Russia is waiting too long. I can understand this point of view even though I don't share it. I believe that Russia will wait until the Ukrainian army is closer to collapse before launching a full scale offensive.

According to Weeb Union, the Wagnerians are training the whole Belorussian army in Belarus and will soon have a force of 60,000 men after reinforcements arrive from Africa. The Belorussian army is 80,000 strong and the Russians are also sending troops into the area which means that a total force of 300,000 men could be deployed for offensive action: Major Wagner Buildup in Belarus | Ukrainian Advances | Personal Account 07/15/23 - YouTube 3 min 49 secs onward. Could there be an offensive from Belarus?

I saw a report from a Ukrainian source (via the MoA) that the Russians have 100,000 men, 900 tanks and 370 MLRS in the Lyman-Kupyansk Direction: https://t.me/remylind21/5261. These figures could be exaggerated and are not confirmed by the Russians who never provide numbers of their own forces. Alexander Mercouris also reported a 3 kilometer Russian advances in this area.

---

Interesting update. I agree that cracks are starting to form. We will know its getting really bad for the Ukes when the trolls quit their drive by's on this thread. I think I'm seeing a decline in traffic in other threads about the war, which could just mean the sunshine pump is temporarily down, but it could be an indication of a larger shift in opinion. Guess we'll wait and see.

Oh I dunno, they do help bump the thread. What is inarguably true though is that more and more are becoming aware in Europe about Ukraine's actual position militarily/as a dependent client.



I think I was wrong though, sounds like the grain deal won't be resurrected next month when Erdogan-Putin meet.

List of official requirements of Russia, the fulfillment of which will make it possible to resume the grain deal.

1. A real, not a speculative conclusion from the sanctions on the supply of Russian grain and fertilizers to world markets.

2. All obstacles for Russian banks and… pic.twitter.com/9rMrexJJms

— -- GEROMAN -- time will tell - 👀 -- (@GeromanAT) July 22, 2023

That's unfortunate, as it could have been the beginning of a de-escalation, imho. I've also seen some reports of more and more mutinies/insurrection or whatever within UFA forces, which while we won't see covered broadly/openly, is something to keep an eye out for.

fka ftc said:

---

Teslag said:

---

fka ftc said:

---

Questioning mainstream media is nothing but Russia propaganda to some trolly trollers that may post here.

---

One can easily question mainstream media without having to prop up and support Russian propaganda and state affiliated media.

---

You are right. And folks like nortex and myself have done it since day one of this conflict but all you can retort with are ad homs claiming Russian propagandists and Putin puppets. Try and do better and engage in discussion versus attacking those with a different view on the conflict than the one you have and your repeated demands to stack bodies of Russian conscripted soldiers.

---

So when nortex has cited information from wargonzo, Donbas devushka, and Scott Ritter in the past he was not propping up Russian propaganda? Hell we have even had posters directly reference Russia Today on this thread.

Teslag said:

---

fka ftc said:

---

Teslag said:

---

fka ftc said:

---

Questioning mainstream media is nothing but Russia propaganda to some trolly trollers that may post here.

---

One can easily question mainstream media without having to prop up and support Russian propaganda and state affiliated media.

---

You are right. And folks like nortex and myself have done it since day one of this conflict but all you can retort with are ad homs claiming Russian propagandists and Putin puppets. Try and do better and engage in discussion versus attacking those with a different view on the conflict than the one you have and your repeated demands to stack bodies of Russian conscripted soldiers.

---

So when nortex has cited information from wargonzo, Donbas devushka, and Scott Ritter in the past he was not propping up Russian propaganda? Hell we have even had posters directly reference Russia Today on this thread.

---

Nortex cites eastern propaganda




Everyone just needs to recognize that all media is bull. The height of gullibility is believing any media is unbiased.