GinMan said:

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RFK Jr.: "Ukraine has as much of a chance beating Russia as th US going to war with Mexico. Ukraine will NEVER win this "war"……."

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RFK Jr with more common sense then most squishy Rs, CMs and DemTardLibs.

Hope the pro Ukers realize they are denser, likely dumber than a former drug addict turn conspiracy theorist loon.

GAC06 said:

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There's nothing else to send. Except all the other stuff also included in the latest package. Dumb.

BREAKING: US formally announces new security package for #Ukraine

It includes "highly effective & reliable dual-purpose improved conventional munitions (DPICM)" aka cluster munitions, for 155mm artillery rounds & 105 mm artillery rounds

Also another 64 armored vehicles pic.twitter.com/4ENlTVwYmq

— Jeff Seldin (@jseldin) July 7, 2023

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Yup. That will help them win the war and not just prolong the inevitable. Thanks US!

🚨Ukraine out of Ammunition🚨

Biden with a pretty damning admission when responding to reporters asking about cluster munitions to Ukraine:

“They’ve run out of ammunition”

This confirms that Western media have been lying about the status of the war.

Ukraine are in bad shape. pic.twitter.com/wozmIRArMP

— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) July 8, 2023

There are plenty of articles about the ammunition shortage and the balance of artillery favoring Russia, but here are a few receipts:https://t.co/fJAZYReQWlhttps://t.co/ifeCqwL43Mhttps://t.co/0qRsGNE0dqhttps://t.co/agHXXXOkB2

— David Sacks (@DavidSacks) June 21, 2023

The US dropped 270 million cluster bombs on Laos.

"Every eight minutes, 24 hours a day, for nine years from 1964 until 1973, a planeload of cluster bombs was dropped on Laos by American B-52s."

50 years later, civilians (and children) are still being blown up by the bombs. pic.twitter.com/TPjzuY1Zaw

— sarah (@sahouraxo) July 8, 2023

"This time it will be different. They will be used carefully. Trust us." "We are doing this because it is weakening Russia which is in US interests." Sure, Ok.

Odessa: Guy was pulled out of the drivers seat by army “recruiters”, just in the middle of the road.

-> With the losses mounting you need more to fill those APCs and drivers too … poor people. https://t.co/oDoQZ916M2 pic.twitter.com/qb1RMhgEYp

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) July 8, 2023

So you think things are going well for the Russians?

nortex97 said:

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Odessa: Guy was pulled out of the drivers seat by army “recruiters”, just in the middle of the road.

-> With the losses mounting you need more to fill those APCs and drivers too … poor people. https://t.co/oDoQZ916M2 pic.twitter.com/qb1RMhgEYp

— Lord Bebo (@MyLordBebo) July 8, 2023

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Such bravery. Such strength.

I think Washington reaching out to Moscow, which is unlikely to accept a diplomatic resolution right now due to how the military/economic situation has proceeded, is an indicia of which side is 'losing more.'



I don't think there is a big winner in the war/conflict, other than China. As per Biden our stockpiles/inventory is heavily depleted though, and we can't direct a successful offensive after planning to do so with the rebuilt UFA forces for over a year.

Do you have a credible, non-emotional analyses (which is not propaganda) indicating Ukraine is winning/Russia is losing, tactically right now?

Hope everyone is buckled in for a long war. This isn't ending anytime soon despite all of the random, delusional tweets on the tactical thread.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-war-counteroffensive-frontlines-russia-add3e4e4?st=akj6vlz1pridp2y&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

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Ukraine successfully outmaneuvered Russia's far larger invading forces last year, despite being outmanned, outgunned and vastly overpowered in the air. With a nimble approach, superior knowledge of the terrain and the efficient use of drones and digital technology, its units were able to repel a far larger army that often seemed lumbering and mired in bureaucracy.

That's all over.

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Counter-offensive failed and the Austrian military leader on the other thread was correct. What's happening is that they are simply adapting to that failure and changing the message.

Quote:

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In this phase of the war, Ukraine's lack of resources is proving as much of a challenge as the dug-in Russian defenses. Despite the delivery of new Western weapons in recent monthsand a promise by the U.S. Friday to send deadly cluster munitions in the futureKyiv's effort to push south through Russian territory toward the Sea of Azov has stalled.

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Quote:

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"If we kill a whole unit100 soldiers [Russian]the next day they will bring another unit. And the day after, another," Lt. Col. Telehin said.

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Forever War still on:

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"The Ukrainians have made gains, but they face fierce fighting, tough terrain and well-prepared Russian defensive lines," said North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg. He said the situation is "an argument for continuing our support."

At NATO's summit this week in Lithuania, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is slated to attend, alliance leaders will "send the message that we will be there for as long as it takes," Stoltenberg said.

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Tactical thread reads as if Ukraine is making alot of gains. This guy says they aren't:

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Kyiv is trying to soften the Russian defenses before sending troops in but doesn't have enough ammunition to simply flatten Russian-held villages, as the Russians did in Bakhmut and other parts of eastern Ukraine. Instead, Ukrainian troops usually make artillery strikes only if they have confirmed Russian positions with drones.

Soldiers said a lack of armored vehicles was also slowing their efforts to advance. Speaking recently from a command post in the Zaporizhzhia region, Vados, the rifle-unit commander, said that his unit had tried to assault a Russian-held village the previous day. As Ukrainian infantry advanced on foot, the Russians moved to surround them.

"If we had more vehicles, we could have brought more infantry to the flanks," Vados, a lieutenant, said. Instead, the unit retreated without taking the village. In the month since the offensive began, Vados said he hasn't been part of an operation that successfully seized a well-prepared Russian position.

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And the Leopards they received aren't being used because they are way too vulnerable:

Quote:

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Ukraine still hasn't thrown into battle much of its best new Western equipment. Kyiv has dozens of German-made Leopard 2 tanks, but after several of them got stuck in minefields in early June, they haven't been seen on the battlefield. Some brigades that were spared from the fighting earlier this year to train on the Western equipment also haven't been used since the offensive began.

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Good luck to the Ukrainians. They are going to need it.

Is it still considered the spring counteroffensive now that we're in July and its taken nothing notable?

BREAKING: US formally announces new security package for #Ukraine

It includes "highly effective & reliable dual-purpose improved conventional munitions (DPICM)" aka cluster munitions, for 155mm artillery rounds & 105 mm artillery rounds

Also another 64 armored vehicles pic.twitter.com/4ENlTVwYmq

— Jeff Seldin (@jseldin) July 7, 2023

Are global marxists disarming the west by way of this proxy war in Ukraine?

If the war ended today, how many farmers will die over the next 100 years from hitting uxo?

Cracks in the coalition: UK and Spain ask Biden not to provide cluster munitions to UFA.

Shocker: Biden tells fake news CNN Ukraine not ready for Nato membership.

Quote:

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President Joe Biden said Sunday on CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS" that he didn't think Ukraine was ready for NATO membership.

Biden said, "I don't think it's ready for membership in NATO. But here is the deal, I spent a great deal of time holding NATO together because I believe Putin has an overwhelming objective at the time that he launched 85,000 troops into Ukraine, and that was to break NATO. He was confident in my view that he could break NATO. So holding NATO together is really critical."

He continued, "I don't think there is unanimity in NATO about whether or not to bring Ukraine into the NATO family now, at this moment, in the middle of a war. If you did that, then you know, and I mean what I say, we're determined to commit every inch of territory that is NATO territory as a commitment that we've all made no matter what. If the war is going on, then we're all in a war. You know, we're in a war with Russia if that were the case."

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Meh, he can't spell "NATO" but it's nice to see the administration back away from that near-certain-to-expand-the-war move.

nortex97 said:

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Cracks in the coalition: UK and Spain ask Biden not to provide cluster munitions to UFA.

Shocker: Biden tells fake news CNN Ukraine not ready for Nato membership.

Quote:

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President Joe Biden said Sunday on CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS" that he didn't think Ukraine was ready for NATO membership.

Biden said, "I don't think it's ready for membership in NATO. But here is the deal, I spent a great deal of time holding NATO together because I believe Putin has an overwhelming objective at the time that he launched 85,000 troops into Ukraine, and that was to break NATO. He was confident in my view that he could break NATO. So holding NATO together is really critical."

He continued, "I don't think there is unanimity in NATO about whether or not to bring Ukraine into the NATO family now, at this moment, in the middle of a war. If you did that, then you know, and I mean what I say, we're determined to commit every inch of territory that is NATO territory as a commitment that we've all made no matter what. If the war is going on, then we're all in a war. You know, we're in a war with Russia if that were the case."

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Meh, he can't spell "NATO" but it's nice to see the administration back away from that near-certain-to-expand-the-war move.

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Lately, I've seen multiple examples of Biden stating he is personally holding together a bunch of stuff globally. Complete lying clown on that front. He invited Putin into Ukraine with his mealy commentary early on in this war and then had to be dragged to the table by his EU counterparts to actually do anything about it. This is all public record and was reported on back then. Good lord.

And then he flat out says that if they bring Ukraine in we are going to war with Russia full on. Awesome. Hope to God they don't get in.

From Reuters the NATO Secretary keeps telling everyone that they are admitting Ukraine into NATO:

Quote:

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"I expect our leaders to reaffirm that Ukraine will become a member of NATO and unite on how to bring Ukraine closer to its goal," NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, whose term was extended by a year ahead of the summit, said on Friday.

NATO is expected to present a package of support to Ukraine at the summit, including an upgraded cooperation body, the NATO-Ukraine Council, and a bundle of non-lethal military aid to help Kyiv's armed forces to reform and reach NATO standards.

But Zelenskiy has insisted Ukraine also wants assurances on membership that go beyond a vague pledge, made in Bucharest in 2008, that Ukraine would become a member of the alliance.
Negotiators are trying to find language acceptable to all NATO members for the summit's final declaration but had not finalised the text by Friday, according to diplomats.
"I'm confident that we'll find a united way ... to address the specific issue on membership," Stoltenberg said.

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And it sounds like just completley skipping normal adimission standards could be on the table for them:

Quote:

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One option under discussion would be to declare Ukraine could skip a procedure used by many countries to become NATO members, known as a Membership Action Plan (MAP).

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Meanwhile, I found this insightful comment in The Guardian on NATO membership:

Quote:

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Which brings us back to the forthcoming summit and the question of Ukrainian accession via a Membership Action Plan (MAP). Here, the leaders of the alliance would do well to recall the warning of the journalist and grand strategist Walter Lippmann that "an alliance is like a chain. It is not made stronger by adding weak links to it." The offer of a MAP to Ukraine in Vilnius would also contravene Nato's own principles regarding accession, which state, in part:

Quote:

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States which have ethnic disputes or external territorial disputes, including irredentist claims, or internal jurisdictional disputes must settle those disputes by peaceful means in accordance with OSCE principles. Resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance.

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The territorial dispute in question predates the Russian war by eight years, starting in 2014 when Russia took Crimea (which Ukraine disputes) and when it assisted in helping the rebels in the Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) and the Luhansk People's Republic (LPR) declare themselves independent of Kiev. As such, there is no case for Ukrainian accession at this time. There is, however, given the high rate of casualties on the Ukrainian side and the mounting economic and political fallout from the war in Europe, a serious case for pursuing negotiations.

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Non-propaganda? Really. I'd say almost 100% of your posting is emotional propaganda. And no I couldn't say either side is clearly winning. But I still think that could change in time.

Correct. The very concept of adding a broken, indebted, destitute, currently subject to invasion, depopulated Ukraine into a 'defensive alliance' against Russia is point of fact absurd.

Biden's lies are partly personally excusable for his patently obvious senility, but there are non-senile adults who continue to support this banality. He's not honest about a single thing and has said the opposite on any given issue/decision at various points over the past 50 years, such as with cluster munitions. He was always a shamelessly dishonest charlatan fraud (the "Senator from MBNA") but it's utterly disgraceful anyone would want to leave him in place in a major powers conflict on 'our side.'

Quote:

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Nations subscribing to the Wellington Declaration, which led to the Convention on Cluster Munitions

On 30 November 2017, the Pentagon put off indefinitely their planned ban on using cluster bombs after 2018, as they had been unable to produce submunitions with failure rates of 1% or less.

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So we've been unable to produce a cluster bomb that is both safe and effective?

Is that what they're saying here?

Ukraine getting rolled

Zelensky sucks. The Big Guy is gonna need more than 10% if Z wants to keep the weapons/ammunition rolling in.

Putin is evil

Water is wet

Water is not wet.
How dare you say water is wet?
That is just old traditional outdated thinking.
Water is merely moist.

HarryJ33tamu said:

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Ukraine getting rolled

Zelensky sucks. The Big Guy is gonna need more than 10% if Z wants to keep the weapons/ammunition rolling in.

Putin is evil

Water is wet

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Ukraine takes more and more land each day, Russia is on the verge of losing Bakhmut (their only notable gain in the past year), and were expecting to roll into Kiev in four days….



But Ukraine is getting "rolled"

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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If the war ended today, how many farmers will die over the next 100 years from hitting uxo?

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And every single one will be because of Russia. They don't invade then none of this happens

docb said:

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So you think things are going well for the Russians?

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Russia getting its ass kicked at a slower pace now is very successful for glorious Russian motherland

Keep spinning! Unfortunately for you the map is clear and Ukraine is losing.

twk said:

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NATO has never been a threat to Russia. Period. That's a Russian propaganda line pure and simple.

Giving arms to Ukraine was precisely the right thing to do. An unchecked Russia would be a threat to the rest of the old Warsaw Pact countries had Putin succeeded in rolling over Ukraine. Now that we have crippled the Russian military, how long we want to send aid, and how much, is very much a legitimate question. My view is that we should send them enough to give them a chance for a breakthrough this year. After that, it it's going to be a long term struggle, the Europeans need to carry the bulk of the load.

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NeoCons love them some war.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Keep spinning! Unfortunately for you the map is clear and Ukraine is losing.

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Does the losing side normally keep making advances while the other side consistently loses ground?

Show me a map of Ukraine today and Ukraine 5 years ago.

If you're not trolling you're delusional. The country has shrunk.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Show me a map of Ukraine today and Ukraine 5 years ago.

If you're not trolling you're delusional. The country has shrunk.

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Now show me a map of what Russia had a year ago compared what they have now. I assume the Russians still control Kharkiv, Kherson, and are still just outside Kiev from the north correct?

Both your map and mine show Ukraine has shrunk. What color is Crimea that you see? Where do you think you can get off by spiking that ball? Either map shows a losing Ukelele.

Interesting if true, which it appears to be. I am curious if this portends a change in posture/shift to the offensive from the Russian side, or something else.

Putin has sacked Gen Gerasimov who was in charge of the war against Ukraine as he continues his purge of the top brass following Wagner's attempted coup last month.
General Valery Gerasimov, 67, has been ousted as commander less than six months after he was appointed. He has…

— Velina Tchakarova (@vtchakarova) July 9, 2023

I'll see what I can find out as to the underlying motives/shift if possible, while of course staying clear of propaganda as much as possible, unlike so many. Salut, comrades.

In late June of 1944 Planecrashguy would be reassuring Hitler all is well because they control most of France.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Both your map and mine show Ukraine has shrunk. What color is Crimea that you see? Where do you think you can get off by spiking that ball? Either map shows a losing Ukelele.

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Incorrect. Ukraine has grown in size since this date a year ago.

nortex97 said:

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Interesting if true, which it appears to be. I am curious if this portends a change in posture/shift to the offensive from the Russian side, or something else.

Putin has sacked Gen Gerasimov who was in charge of the war against Ukraine as he continues his purge of the top brass following Wagner's attempted coup last month.
General Valery Gerasimov, 67, has been ousted as commander less than six months after he was appointed. He has…

— Velina Tchakarova (@vtchakarova) July 9, 2023

I'll see what I can find out as to the underlying motives/shift if possible, while of course staying clear of propaganda as much as possible, unlike so many. Salut, comrades.

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Both your map and mine show Ukraine has shrunk. What color is Crimea that you see? Where do you think you can get off by spiking that ball? Either map shows a losing Ukelele.

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Incorrect. Ukraine has grown in size since this date a year ago.

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A year ago, Ukraine had already shrunk. You're twisting yourself intro pretzels to avoid that reality. If you actually believe they will recapture Crimea, just say that so I know you need a permanent ignore and your tough guy bit is not a troll.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Both your map and mine show Ukraine has shrunk. What color is Crimea that you see? Where do you think you can get off by spiking that ball? Either map shows a losing Ukelele.

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Incorrect. Ukraine has grown in size since this date a year ago.

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A year ago, Ukraine had already shrunk. You're twisting yourself intro pretzels to avoid that reality. If you actually believe they will recapture Crimea, just say that so I know you need a permanent ignore and your tough guy bit is not a troll.

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France shrank for a number of years after Germany invaded in 1940. Russia shrank for a number of years after Germany invaded in 1941. How'd that work out for France, Russia, and Germany again?

South Korea shrank to almost nothing when the North invaded in 1950. Look at it now...

You keep on bringing up the current state of the map add of means a ****ing thing for the future, when history has shown it doesn't. Who's the troll?

People should really try and look beyond the headlines and read between the lines of what the Ukraine support / aid is all about.

We toured the Ring of Kerry today and along with fascinating scenery and superb weather, our guide discussed the impact to the area from the pandemic, old history, recent history, etc. We passed by 2 former resort inns (think 50 rooms or less) and one campground that now houses… refugees from Ukraine. This is not Dublin, this is out in the western most reaches of Ireland.

Ireland evidently has received over 100,000 refugees (mostly women and children according to the guide) and they are making use of these unused structures to provide housing.

Seems a bit odd but who am I to judge where they choose to put them. Then we move on and he discusses the depopulation of the region by native Irish who sought better, higher paying jobs / lifestyles in Dublin, the UK and beyond. Keep in mind this mention was maybe an hour disjointed from the Ukraine mention.

At the end, he discusses impacts from the pandemic and that it is hard finding labor to support the surge in tourism in the area and the move of wealthier folks from other areas to places like Hog's Head where Tiger Woods and friends helicopter in to $5,000 rounds of golf and stay in multi-million resort homes. Says they need workers to return to work to support.

The smart person, and I count myself as exceptionally smart, should see how the 3 apparently different things are related. Locals have moved away to greener pastures (and they must be really, really green), pandemic exacerbated the labor shortage, and where better to relocate captive Ukraine women / children refugees who likely are not afforded the same salary and benefits of Irish residents to help support the rich people having fun.

But yea, it's all about most sovereign Ukraine and helping out the poor victims of Putin's bullying.

Lots of people need to wake the **** up and call a spade a spade.

biglebowski said:

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twk said:

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NATO has never been a threat to Russia. Period. That's a Russian propaganda line pure and simple.

Giving arms to Ukraine was precisely the right thing to do. An unchecked Russia would be a threat to the rest of the old Warsaw Pact countries had Putin succeeded in rolling over Ukraine. Now that we have crippled the Russian military, how long we want to send aid, and how much, is very much a legitimate question. My view is that we should send them enough to give them a chance for a breakthrough this year. After that, it it's going to be a long term struggle, the Europeans need to carry the bulk of the load.

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NeoCons love them some war.

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Kinda funny considering a few pages back the UKR boys were just saying how NATO was founded to combat the USSR, and how Putin was not allowed to join because they continued their adversarial roles.

Now you are saying the side that won the cold war and chipped away at the Iron curtain for 25 years is somehow not a threat to the enemy they continue to target.


Ladies and gentlemen, cognitive dissonance at its finest.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Both your map and mine show Ukraine has shrunk. What color is Crimea that you see? Where do you think you can get off by spiking that ball? Either map shows a losing Ukelele.

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Incorrect. Ukraine has grown in size since this date a year ago.

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A year ago, Ukraine had already shrunk. You're twisting yourself intro pretzels to avoid that reality. If you actually believe they will recapture Crimea, just say that so I know you need a permanent ignore and your tough guy bit is not a troll.

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What you did yesterday doesn't matter in war. For the past year and present Ukraine has been driving on Russia and taking back more and more each day. That's all that matters.