Which is fine. I don't think we (the two of us) really disagree but there is a side that claims moral high ground about war crimes and tactics, while also defeating to Cold War training as per above.

The inconsistency is interesting, morally. As usual I'll cite that there is no "good" side or imperative for us to arm Kiev or further extend the conflict. Many disagree but can't do so consistently.

"Total war" theory implies the Russians should pursue a war of complete annihilation of the Ukrainians but they have declined to do so, for some reason. Arguably, they seek a wider conflict by drawing in more and more nato weaponry and this stuff just works for them, thus.

Actually, one side sees invader/invaded and base points of view on that.

Now they're drawing in DPICM. War reserve stockpiles that still exist pretty much purely to use on Russia. Putin remains a master tactician.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

"Congress passed a law in 2009 that says the U.S. cannot deploy or transfer cluster munitions with a dud rate higher than 1 percent. The president can sign a waiver to bypass that restriction."

Sounds legal to me. And yes I find your mental gymnastics amusing. Russia is about to get a taste of their own medicine and the squealing continues.

---

We're transferring cluster bombs/munitions with more than that dud rate, as we all know. That's a pencil whip 'change' to acheive the goal (also because we are out of enough 155mm ammo to xfer).

BREAKING: Here is Jen Psaki in 2022 saying that using cluster bombs is a war crime

The Biden Admin is sending cluster bomber to Ukraine today pic.twitter.com/dSMKqumDm1

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) July 7, 2023

Your hypocrisy is not actually amusing, it's merely pathetic.

At what point shouldn't we…by that standard, just contract with a third party country a la Wuhan fauci flu to produce mustard gas for the UFA? Seriously, treaties/conventions aside, as law and morality don't matter to 'your side' why not, Mr. Deep thinker Team All America CCP-Dem?

---

Speaking of hypocrisy, I must have missed all of the "other perspectives" throwing temper tantrums about Russia's actions during their unprovoked and pointless invasion.

For the people recently concerned about Ukraine using cluster munitions inside their own country, I got some bad news for you.

Russia fired 10,000,000+ artillery, rockets, cluster munitions, & more inside Ukraine over the past 500 days.

You don’t want to know the dud rate. pic.twitter.com/G4aD03m3Eo

— CJ (@CasualArtyFan) July 7, 2023

---

What a stupid tweet. "Russia is evil for shooting off all these, condemn them! Also btw lots of them are duds because Russia is dumb."

Dude is undercutting his point.

YouBet said:

---

All of the banned / not banned munitions aside...if I'm the country being invaded then all bets are off. Really don't care what's "illegal". Alls fair as far as I'm concerned aside from WMDs.

To me, the gray area becomes do you relax your own standards to help an ally win. And therein lies the problem of having a go/no go list of munitions. You are always going to be a hypocrite with that.

---

The only hard and fast rule of war is what you can do to your enemy and what your enemy can do to you.

If you are the country seeking conquest it behooves you to show restraint in order to make pacification of the region easier.

Which is why the rules of engagement in the middle east for us were ****ing ludicrous.

I have absolutely zero issue with a defending country using every dirty trick in the book to defend their homeland.

HOWEVER. If you are a country trying to claim the moral high ground and are actively appealing for aid from the international community based on some moral imperative yet using unethical weapons and tactics....especially after being given or sold hundreds of billions in aid.

Well that makes you just as unethical as the country trying to occupy your territory.

Like I said, there are no good guys here.

Just bad guys trying to occupy territory claimed by other bad guys.

The high dud rate means there's a crap ton of unexploded ordnance in Ukraine to kill and maim for decades, which is the whole point of opposing cluster munitions. I thought it was a pretty straightforward point.

Oh no!!

Russia might accidentally create these two

"there are no good guys here" never stops being pathetic

Troll troll troll ur boat.

For the dummies, if it's been illegal to use or transfer cluster munitions with greater than a 1% dud rate for over a decade then why do we even have them in stock? Seems like they would get thrown in the metaphorical trashcan before leaving the factory.

War reserve. It just requires presidential approval. Besides us, notable non-signatories to the Convention on Cluster Munitions include Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, and… Ukraine

Teslag said:

---

"there are no good guys here" never stops being pathetic

---

Neither does "I am very badass" but you keep posting it and we keep laughing st you

GAC06 said:

---

Now we care about cluster munitions, guys. Join the pearl clutching party

---

They do have a bad rap in popular culture regardless of the reality, so announcing it seems like we are giving unexploded munitions to be stepped on in the future. That seems like a, err, misstep as far as announcements go. We can give munitions without likening them to poor people.

Also DPICM is one letter away from being a terrible acronym, so much so that the M might as well be silent.

It's not Bud Light, but it's not great messaging.

Faustus said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Now we care about cluster munitions, guys. Join the pearl clutching party

---

They do have a bad rap in popular culture regardless of the reality, so announcing it seems like we are giving unexploded munitions to be stepped on in the future. That seems like a, err, misstep as far as announcements go. We can give munitions without likening them to poor people.

Also DPICM is one letter away from being a terrible acronym, so much so that the M might as well be silent.

It's not Bud Light, but it's not great messaging.

---

I like DICM, when its me doing it.

FJB once wanted to cut off aid to Israel when they used cluster bombs. So brave. A principled leader, indeed as we all know.

Rules-Based International Order v23.7.7

This update contains the following enhancements and bug fixes:

💣 Cluster bombs have been upgraded from war crime to important tool to bring the killing to an end.

All countries should update as soon as possible.

— David Sacks (@DavidSacks) July 7, 2023

"Safe and effective" so of course the propaganda press gobblers/believers are quick to praise and agree. Sounds familiar.

The proxy war must continue, inexorably. Sorry, Ukrainians, just accept your conscriptions and role as sacrificial lambs to US/Nato foreign policy objectives and R&D:

Quote:

---

So here's our paradox. Even though all three key parties want to end the war, the fighting still continues. Why? Because of a virtue that is also a sin. The Ukraine war is not an all-out war like the First or Second World Wars. It is a "limited war", with US and Russian embassies still functioning in Moscow and Washington, US and Russian astronauts sharing space capsules, concerned phone calls by the CIA director when Moscow is briefly in turmoil. It is bound by reciprocal restraint. The Russians do not attack US aircraft and vessels bringing weapons to their enemy, the Americans do not supply weapons to Ukraine that can attack Russian cities. Putin himself has silenced threats of nuclear attacks by Russian hotheads, declaring that he would only use nuclear weapons if Russia were faced with imminent destruction that is, inevitably, nuclear destruction.

In other words, the good news is that the Ukraine war is, a polite, "limited war", just like those of the 18th century that were later envied in the terrible 20th century of all-out, unlimited wars. But the bad news is that as long as only the Ukrainians are under fire, none of the other protagonists has an impellent reason to end the fighting. So like the 18th-century Seven Years' War, it risks dragging on for at least another 500 days.

---

The cluster weapon the U.S. will provide to Ukraine is the 155-mm M864 projectile, loaded with 72 DPICM grenades that are identical to those used with earlier M483 rounds. The dud rate on these submunitions has been observed at 14% in real-word conditions https://t.co/6g0SrQy3mk

— John Ismay (@johnismay) July 8, 2023

Meh, 14 percent, no big deal. Forever war!

But I'm told only the Russians are using/losing ancient T-60 series tanks?

A Ukrainian, what seems to be a T- 64B most likely ,was destroyed by an FPV drone.Unknown Location.@Rebel44CZ pic.twitter.com/uMDp0KLnxn

— WarVehicleTracker (@WarUpdater) July 7, 2023

And now I will take care of some stuff, and look forward to whines about links/not providing the 'right' mix of anti-Putin and other news in this post. Have a nice Saturday, Ags.

This commentary dovetails with my earlier "esoteric" post. The difference between today and then though is that one of the reasons wars were limited was because funds were also limited.

Quote:

---

So here's our paradox. Even though all three key parties want to end the war, the fighting still continues. Why? Because of a virtue that is also a sin. The Ukraine war is not an all-out war like the First or Second World Wars. It is a "limited war", with US and Russian embassies still functioning in Moscow and Washington, US and Russian astronauts sharing space capsules, concerned phone calls by the CIA director when Moscow is briefly in turmoil. It is bound by reciprocal restraint. The Russians do not attack US aircraft and vessels bringing weapons to their enemy, the Americans do not supply weapons to Ukraine that can attack Russian cities. Putin himself has silenced threats of nuclear attacks by Russian hotheads, declaring that he would only use nuclear weapons if Russia were faced with imminent destruction that is, inevitably, nuclear destruction.

In other words, the good news is that the Ukraine war is, a polite, "limited war", just like those of the 18th century that were later envied in the terrible 20th century of all-out, unlimited wars. But the bad news is that as long as only the Ukrainians are under fire, none of the other protagonists has an impellent reason to end the fighting. So like the 18th-century Seven Years' War, it risks dragging on for at least another 500 days.

---

Related to this Gen. Miley said this week that this war "will take a very long time". Not that we didn't already know that. But anyone thinking this counteroffensive is going to end soon is probably delusional.

Counterpoint: Miley is a known dumbass so maybe he will be wrong.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

Teslag said:

---

"there are no good guys here" never stops being pathetic

---

Neither does "I am very badass" but you keep posting it and we keep laughing st you

---

It doesn't take a "badass" to defend one's homeland. It is the very basic duty of any citizen. Our nation exists because of the militia of common men, the spirit of which is enshrined in our 2nd amendment. It doesn't take an act of valor to do that. But it sure as hell takes cowardice not to. And especially to lead an entire nation into voluntarily servitude.

Quote:

---

But I'm told only the Russians are using/losing ancient T-60 series tanks?

---

No, you weren't told that. Ok maybe one of your idiot twitter follows told you that.

T-64's aren't the same series as T-62's and made up the bulk of Ukraine's prewar armor. Russia is pulling ancient T-62's out of storage because they've lost so many tanks and can't replace them otherwise (despite what gullible "independent thinkers" may believe).

Vietnam was us with eventually 600,000+ troops over there for a decade while China/Soviets funded and supplied our opponent. We lost.

Afganistn in the 80's was Soviets fighting over there for a decade while we funded and supplied their opponent. Soviets lost. Though a decade after that some of the guys we funded did come back to bite us in the ass as terrorists.

Same sh*t, different decade. There was a brief period in 90's and early 2000's where maybe the Cold War with Russia could have been truly set aside. But things started going south in the GWB admin and Cold War back strong as ever.

Yes, it is relatedly akin/similar. The thing is, Milley probably isn't just mouthing about but relaying the actual US/Nato strategy, though. Which is very disturbing because if the meat grinder/stalemated lines continue as-is for years, again, there really is zero hope for a Ukrainian people, let alone country at the end of that yellow brick road to hell.

The country is, as I've already stated many times, utterly doomed now but there is a remnant/core population that could recover if some refugees returned and a trillion is thrown at western Ukraine/Kiev in an economic 'redevelopment' plan supported by us, China and Europe (benefiting Blackrock/military contractors $$$ mainly naturally). But if it goes for several years plus, I am not sure even those Lviv/Kiev etc. population centers will be able to provide the photo opp. Populations needed to support the propaganda. Perhaps team "81 million votes" will find a way.

Perspective;

Quote:

---

I cannot for the life of me figure out what keeps the Ukrainians going. I think I can wrap my head around it throughout the start of the SMO and into early 2023. However the last 6 months have been one let down after another. One would think that by now a generous portion of the hard core ideologues are dead at this point. The ONLY conclusion I can come up with is the answer is straight up Roman and it was instilled long before the SMO ever kicked off.

The entire nation of Ukraine has been propped up by Western interests. I believe they made it very clear to Zelensky and his cabinet that when it starts this will continue as long they continue to fight. The moment they concede the funding will be pulled and your society will fall like dominoes. I would be willing to bet that the worst possible outcomes for Z and his admin have been heavily re-enforced far down the pecking order.

This wrath that awaits those at the top has permeated its way down to the conscripts themselves. Its probably not just the lowly press ganged soldier who lives in fear but his family as well. "Die fighting and your family lives and avoids torture." "Try and dodge your fate your family will be slaughtered."
This is my best guess as to how Ukraine keeps the war machine turning in the face of impossible odds. It's the only thing that makes any sense to me at this point. I keep wondering as to why Ukrainians do not turn on their masters…

---

Forever war! Putin bad! T-64's are modern/good!

Basically that entire quoted piece could be summarized as…

"Why aren't the Ukrainians gutless cowards like I would be?"

Ukraine has heavily upgraded and modernized their T-64's basically right up to the war. It's not remotely similar to Russia pulling T-62's out of storage. Sorry your attempt at a gotcha just showed your ignorance.

Perspective:

Quote:

---

I cannot for the life of me figure out what keeps the Russians going. I think I can wrap my head around it throughout the start of the SMO and into early 2023. However the last 6 months have been one let down after another. One would think that by now a generous portion of the hard core ideologues are dead at this point. The ONLY conclusion I can come up with is the answer is straight up Roman and it was instilled long before the SMO ever kicked off.

---

Weird, it kinda works better this way. I guess we'll know Ukraine is in trouble if one of their warlords mutinies and starts marching on Kiev.

Teslag said:

---

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

Teslag said:

---

"there are no good guys here" never stops being pathetic

---

Neither does "I am very badass" but you keep posting it and we keep laughing st you

---

It doesn't take a "badass" to defend one's homeland.

---

And again what you fail to realize and one of the MANY failings of the military and military strategists in the middle east is that there are some countries and peoples for whom their "homeland" is not the arbitrarily drawn line by politicians thousands of miles away.

In the middle east tribal loyalty in many regions trumps loyalty to cou try because their country's borders were drawn up by imperialistic treaties in western Europe without any regard for traditional and familial and tribal ties.

The same goes for Ukraine.

There has been so much mixing of Russian people in the the Eastern Ukrainians and many people in Eastern Ukraine have heavily family ties across the border. Eastern Ukraine and Western Ukraine are two VERY different regions with different ideas of loyalty and homeland.

I have Pakistani acquaintances that go to great efforts to downplay their Pakistani heritage and claim Indian heritage instead and if India and Pakistan came to blows would be actively on the side of India.

There are regions of the world where you idea of a homeland does not apply.

And that is one of the many reasons why despite our technological, military, superiority and the bravery of our ground forces our military got its asses handed to it in Afghanistan.

You have to be able alter your worldview to think like and understand the enemy.

Our military refuses to do that as do our foreign policy makers, and leadership. It's a stupid mistake. And yet we keep doing it over and over again.

Teslag said:

---

Basically that entire quoted piece could be summarized as…

"Why aren't the Ukrainians gutless cowards like I would be?"

---

The Nazis have been trying to eliminate Russians (and Poles) from Ukraine for decades. This war gives them the opportunity.

Ags4DaWin said:

---

Teslag said:

---

PlaneCrashGuy said:

---

Teslag said:

---

"there are no good guys here" never stops being pathetic

---

Neither does "I am very badass" but you keep posting it and we keep laughing st you

---

It doesn't take a "badass" to defend one's homeland.

---

And again what you fail to realize and one of the MANY failings of the military and military strategists in the middle east is that there are some countries and peoples for whom their "homeland" is not the arbitrarily drawn line by politicians thousands of miles away.

In the middle east tribal loyalty in many regions trumps loyalty to cou try because their country's borders were drawn up by imperialistic treaties in western Europe without any regard for traditional and familial and tribal ties.

The same goes for Ukraine.

There has been so much mixing of Russian people in the the Eastern Ukrainians and many people in Eastern Ukraine have heavily family ties across the border. Eastern Ukraine and Western Ukraine are two VERY different regions with different ideas of loyalty and homeland.

I have Pakistani acquaintances that go to great efforts to downplay their Pakistani heritage and claim Indian heritage instead and if India and Pakistan came to blows would be actively on the side of India.

There are regions of the world where you idea of a homeland does not apply.

And that is one of the many reasons why despite our technological, military, superiority and the bravery of our ground forces our military got its asses handed to it in Afghanistan.

You have to be able alter your worldview to think like and understand the enemy.

Our military refuses to do that as do our foreign policy makers, and leadership. It's a stupid mistake. And yet we keep doing it over and over again.

---

The difference here being that these borders were both recognized and accepted by both parties over 30 years ago and accepted peacefully for almost 25 years. And let's not forget that Russia didn't want just a piece of eastern Ukraine. They wanted the whole enchilada.

Quote:

---

The difference here being that these borders were both recognized and accepted by both parties over 30 years ago and accepted peacefully for almost 25 years. And let's not forget that Russia didn't want just a piece of eastern Ukraine. They wanted the whole enchilada.

---

Yea....gonna need a citation other than "Putin is Hitler 2.0, bent on total domination."

You honestly think Russia wanted to occupy 36million ethnic ukrainians? We couldn't even manage 27million Iraqis, when 1/3rd of em were actually supportive of US intervention.

Do you not think "winning the peace" is a vital part of war calculus post-Vietnam? "No! They are just mindless Orcs."

Winning the peace? LOL, we are still in the 'pre-MACV' era right now. At least Milley won't be in his office in the Pentagon, the whole time.

The real question becomes what will happen once Ukraine is admitted to Nato as they/the US/Jens Steltenberg agree should happen. When do we put boots on the ground to help them per article 5? When does the US begin a modern equivalent of Rolling Thunder to protect our troops on the ground, and what would the equivalent of "Vietnamization" be after? More Polish/Hungarian/German/Lithuanian/Latvian troops?

Would the Ukrainians attack Belarus preliminarily? Zelensky strikes me as analogous to Diem, but I am not clear who our General Westmoreland would be.

If they accept they can't 'fake it to make it' to re-elect this guy, are they setting up a GOP successor with such a problem it can't be 'fixed' as with Nixon?

Did Biden just fart? 🤣🔈 pic.twitter.com/jOPlApsdla

— john (@johnhackerla) July 7, 2023

There are depths of sabotage/strategy/death/destruction in this that I really just can only speculate about. Again, the UFA's abject failure to even mount a propagandized-successful 'offensive' has some scary doors now even more cracked open. The south vietnamese government, like Ukraine, was also horribly corrupt, just fyi. As was the Afghani government, as were the folks in Baghdad in the post-Saddam spoils-system. It's almost as if the CIA targets easily corrupted/manipulable leaders.

This time, clearly, it will be much different. It will obviously not lead to more peoples (of many nationalities) fruitlessly killed/sacrificed, and then others subjugated to Russian (ne soviet)/Chinese totalitarian-friendly governments. Sigh...sorry to the CNN viewers, I will go do my penance and check the current NYT/NPR home pages to correct my wandering mind.

You certainly have a vivid imagination

David Brooks (!) on NPR (as promised, I did my penance and watched/read some propaganda):

Quote:

---

On Friday's "PBS NewsHour," New York Times columnist David Brooks stated that the decision by the Biden administration to send cluster munitions to Ukraine is an indication that "there are no other munitions to send" to Ukraine and that military supply chains are in bad shape. He also stated that the decision to send the cluster munitions seems to be an indication "that the Ukraine advance is not going so great, in part because of the lack of munitions, but in part, because the areas are all mined up."

Brooks said, "I think it says a couple of things: One, apparently, there were there are no other munitions to send. And so, if that you have horrible choices in war, and I understand why they made the decision. I think it says a few other things, though: One, why do they have no other munitions to send? What was wrong with our supply chains that they we don't have normal artillery shells to send? Second, it says that the Ukraine advance is not going so great, in part because of the lack of munitions, but in part, because the areas are all mined up."

---

Sarah Jacobs (D) among others calling out this decision…well, we just have to trust China-Joe I guess.

There are other munitions. They want cluster munitions because they're useful for striking a wider area and hitting armor formations. That's why they were made. We typically refrain from using them because the likelihood of duds increases with the number of munitions. Ukraine doesn't care because they're littered with duds anyway. Brooks is an idiot.

You are correct about brooks. The narrative unity seems to be breaking tho.

There's nothing else to send. Except all the other stuff also included in the latest package. Dumb.

BREAKING: US formally announces new security package for #Ukraine

It includes "highly effective & reliable dual-purpose improved conventional munitions (DPICM)" aka cluster munitions, for 155mm artillery rounds & 105 mm artillery rounds

Also another 64 armored vehicles pic.twitter.com/4ENlTVwYmq

— Jeff Seldin (@jseldin) July 7, 2023

Ukraine is already littered with mines and other ordinance. This isn't a big deal. Ukraine has also been more diligent in attacking with precision. If used appropriately there isn't much added risk.

RFK Jr.: "Ukraine has as much of a chance beating Russia as th US going to war with Mexico. Ukraine will NEVER win this "war"……."