Quote:

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Russia could easily avoid any Russians getting hit by cluster bombs by sending their troops home.

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So war crimes are OK if your side decides the other side is wrong.

Excellent moral high ground there.

Serious question, was this a troll or are you being deliberately obtuse?

The Zelensky (Xiden/CIA) government will target civilians. They have stated repeatedly they seek a wider conflict/nato troops, and have shown no compunction about shelling Russian cities/population centers.

TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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Russia could easily avoid any Russians getting hit by cluster bombs by sending their troops home.

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So war crimes are OK if your side decides the other side is wrong.

Excellent moral high ground there.

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Strange, I haven't seen you complain about Russia's war crimes. Forgive me if I have a bit more sympathy for the country that's being invaded for no reason.

Now we care about cluster munitions, guys. Join the pearl clutching party

nortex97 said:

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Serious question, was this a troll or are you being deliberately obtuse?

The Zelensky (Xiden/CIA) government will target civilians. They have stated repeatedly they seek a wider conflict/nato troops, and have shown no compunction about shelling Russian cities/population centers.

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Zero evidence of this.

Do you have a problem with Russia shelling Ukrainian cities and population centers? Because they are currently doing that.

TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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Russia could easily avoid any Russians getting hit by cluster bombs by sending their troops home.

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So war crimes are OK if your side decides the other side is wrong.

Excellent moral high ground there.

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A country that didn't sign a ban on cluster munitions giving them to another country that didn't sign to use on a third country that didn't sign is a war crime, y'all

Teslag said:

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Brilliant way to blunt any Russian plans to throw bodies at the problem. Now we can just shred Russian bodies rather than stack them.

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We?

Leaving your very disturbing bloodlust aside, the more interesting topic here is not the battlefield effect that these munitions may or may not have since cluster munitions and remotely deployed mines have been in use from the start. Rather what's most interesting is that the US is willing to violate (make exception, whatever) its own laws in order to provide these weapons. That tells us a couple of things: Firstly that Ukraine had expended the large stockpiles of cluster munitions it inherited from the USSR days and secondly that the US is so highly invested in this conflict that it supersedes our own laws and regulations. Just another piece of data showing that there is almost nothing we will not do regarding support. THAT is very very concerning if you're interested in seeing this war come to some sort of conclusion without broadening in scale.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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nortex97 said:

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Serious question, was this a troll or are you being deliberately obtuse?

The Zelensky (Xiden/CIA) government will target civilians. They have stated repeatedly they seek a wider conflict/nato troops, and have shown no compunction about shelling Russian cities/population centers.

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Zero evidence of this.

Do you have a problem with Russia shelling Ukrainian cities and population centers? Because they are currently doing that.

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There is plenty of evidence of this. Civilian areas of Donetsk are routinely shelled.

Support whoever you like in this conflict, but do not delude yourself into believing that this is somehow a war between pure good and evil personified. Remember that at the end of the day this is an ethnic civil war being fought over geopolitical interests.

GAC06 said:

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Now we care about cluster munitions, guys. Join the pearl clutching party

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It's not so much the munitions themselves, though I think the cost to innocents outweighs the tactical benefits, but rather that we would violate our own laws in order to provide them.

Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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GAC06 said:

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If we weren't helping Ukraine we'd still have the same border issues.

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We are only 'helping' Ukraine to become depopulated and run by Russia more slowly, for a few years.

Some of the above comments are typically dismissive of the huge death total in this war. Hint: Ukraine is finished. It's over for them, just a matter of time, thanks to our 'support' for their corrupt leadership.

400K casualties? Their biggest problem before the war was emigration. 80 percent of them don't want anything to do with military service to the government. People are believing…propaganda, to think this is a heroic fight for freedom/liberty/sovereignty.

And to your point, the border crisis would be THE biggest policy discussion were it not for this insane war.

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The article even says nothing in those numbers have been verified...

But, if they are, I find it amusing that it's a 3:1 kill ratio for Ukraine. But, those are rookie numbers. They need to pump them up.

And the border crisis wouldn't be ANY different in policy discussions right now without this war. Why would the admin or media change their bias just because Russian wasn't being an ******* and invading its neighbor?

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Again, then Ukraine gets no resources from us.

IOW, fix our own border first and then we can talk Ukraine resourcing.

IOW 2.0, if you want to give resources to preserve the sovereignty of a country on the other side of the world, then you must fully resource securing our own border first and and address it with strong policy before anyone else's borders get considered.

YouBet said:

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Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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GAC06 said:

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If we weren't helping Ukraine we'd still have the same border issues.

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We are only 'helping' Ukraine to become depopulated and run by Russia more slowly, for a few years.

Some of the above comments are typically dismissive of the huge death total in this war. Hint: Ukraine is finished. It's over for them, just a matter of time, thanks to our 'support' for their corrupt leadership.

400K casualties? Their biggest problem before the war was emigration. 80 percent of them don't want anything to do with military service to the government. People are believing…propaganda, to think this is a heroic fight for freedom/liberty/sovereignty.

And to your point, the border crisis would be THE biggest policy discussion were it not for this insane war.

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The article even says nothing in those numbers have been verified...

But, if they are, I find it amusing that it's a 3:1 kill ratio for Ukraine. But, those are rookie numbers. They need to pump them up.

And the border crisis wouldn't be ANY different in policy discussions right now without this war. Why would the admin or media change their bias just because Russian wasn't being an ******* and invading its neighbor?

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Again, then Ukraine gets no resources from us.

IOW, fix our own border first and then we can talk Ukraine resourcing.

IOW 2.0, if you want to give resources to preserve the sovereignty of a country on the other side of the world, then you must fully resource securing our own border first and and address it with strong policy before anyone else's borders get considered.

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They don't care about our problems but whatever the LinkedIn hashtag campaign of the day is.

GAC06 said:

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LarryElder said:

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GAC06 said:

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Got 'em!

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this is lame but not as bad the UKE summer offensive.

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What was wrong with your first attempt? It was witty and you totally got me with a sick burn!

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This would be funny if it was sarcasm, but its true so it can't be.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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Russia could easily avoid any Russians getting hit by cluster bombs by sending their troops home.

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So war crimes are OK if your side decides the other side is wrong.

Excellent moral high ground there.

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Strange, I haven't seen you complain about Russia's war crimes. Forgive me if I have a bit more sympathy for the country that's being invaded for no reason.

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I offered bringing up an entire decade of Ukrainian war crimes a few posts ago, perhaps I should have done so since your goldfish existence only knows "the current thing."

Further, it's not a slam dunk to sit here in America and complain about invading a country "for no reason." If the goldfish doesn't know of the Donbass in 2014, it certainly doesn't know of Iraq in 2003.

RebelE Infantry said:

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GAC06 said:

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Now we care about cluster munitions, guys. Join the pearl clutching party

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It's not so much the munitions themselves, though I think the cost to innocents outweighs the tactical benefits, but rather that we would violate our own laws in order to provide them.

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There is a valid question as to "why?" Why provide them at all? What tactical objectives will cluster munitions delivered via missiles plausibly achieve? The act in itself further destroys the narrative that this is in some way about preserving Ukraine as a productive country. It eliminates arable farmland.

Quote:

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It is well documented, by Human Rights Watch and others, that the Ukrainian military has used cluster munitions. There is nothing to support a claim that Russia has done so. The Pentagon has rejected claimed evidence of Russian cluster munition attacks:

Quote:

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Commenting on videos depicting alleged Russian cluster munition use, DOD officials stated during a March 1, 2022 press conference that "we've seen the same video that you have but we have not assessed that it is definitive with respect to the use of cluster munitions. So we are not in a position to confirm the use of cluster munitions at this time." In a similar manner, a DOD official stated during March 3, 2022, press conference that DOD was still unable to confirm Russia's use of cluster munitions.

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Cluster munition are banned by most countries because they often fails to explode on impact and thereby leave a lot of unexploded mines on the ground:

Quote:

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The principal weapon under consideration, an M864 artillery shell first produced in 1987, is fired from the 155mm howitzers the United States and other Western countries have provided Ukraine. In its last publicly available estimate, more than 20 years ago, the Pentagon assessed that artillery shell to have a "dud" rate of 6 percent, meaning that at least four of each of the 72 submunitions each shell carries would remain unexploded across an area of approximately 22,500 square meters roughly the size of 4 football fields.

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Last year the Congressional Research Service found that the real dud rate is higher than what the Pentagon claims:

Quote:

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There appear to be significant discrepancies among failure rate estimates. Some manufacturers claim a submunition failure rate of 2% to 5%, whereas mine clearance specialists have frequently reported failure rates of 10% to 30%. A number of factors influence submunition reliability. These include delivery technique, age of the submunition, air temperature, landing in soft or muddy ground, getting caught in trees and vegetation, and submunitions being damaged after dispersal, or landing in such a manner that their impact fuzes fail to initiate.

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By agreeing to provide the munition Biden is circumventing or breaking the law:

Quote:

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There is no waiver provision in the 1 percent limit Congress has placed on cluster munition dud rates, written into Defense Department appropriations for the last seven years. Biden would bypass it and Congress, according to a White House official, drawing down the munitions from existing defense stocks under a rarely used provision of the Foreign Assistance Act, which allows the president to provide aid, regardless of appropriations or arms export restrictions, as long as he determines that it is in the vital U.S. national security interest.

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The cluster ammunition will make large parts of the country inhabitable and unusable for agricultural purposes. It will also make attacks and retreats through affected areas difficult for military forces on both sides.

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Now, Turkey has been sending Ukraine cluster munitions for a while, which of course they've haphazardly used but not in quantities the DoD can provide now.

My theory is that this is just another attempt to prompt an aggressive Russian response (an offensive). As such, it's a bit clever, since this is approaching a poor time of year to attempt as such, and the Ukrainian mythological one has utterly collapsed/done nothing but provide some youtube/blogger propaganda content.

It's reckless though. The Ukrainians have been threatening/hinting at creating a nuclear radiation (false flag) disaster, lashing out attacking Russia proper with 'militia's' and in general firing off anything to create a 'spin' their PR masters at Langley/Tampa could support but adding this makes me wonder if there really are any 'red lines' the Nuland forces won't simply waltz across. Nukes? Chemical weapons?

I dunno, but my further speculation is that with the Dutch government's collapse, the WEF (or rather various globalist factions) are a bit panicked, and this is just an indicia of the attempt to force a more violent response from Putin.

🚨DUTCH GOVERNMENT in the NETHERLANDS has FALLEN. WEF PUPPET PRIME MINISTER MARK RUTTER has now RESIGNED. It's Expected FRANCE'S PRIME MINISTER MACRON & GERMANY'S CHANCELLOR OLAF SCHOLZ Are The Next To Go Followed By The EU. The WEF EVIL SCHWAB, HARARI LOSING. GOD WINS🚨 pic.twitter.com/MLWvOdb0VK

— JQΛППΛПӨП (@JoannaLody) July 7, 2023

You are moving the goal posts, cause I sure as hell have not.

Again, logic escapes some people. Even not funny gifs cannot cover that up. Congrats on your 4 friends who always seem to agree with you.

Yes, THIS is what will be a problem for Ukraines farmland. Not Russian occupation, not Russian cluster munitions, not the already massive amounts of UXO, not the massive number of mines Russia has laid.

Hilarious to see the "independent thinker" crowd get wound up because someone on Twitter told them to clutch pearls over DPICM.

Shocking that those squealing now were silent as Russia used cluster munitions and WP during their unprovoked invasion.

Using cluster bombs is a war crime. Those responsible for their use, even if following orders, will be held accountable. Russia's generals need to defy such orders.

— U.S. Senator Bill Cassidy, M.D. (@SenBillCassidy) February 28, 2022

Oops

Well, he went to LSU, so what do you expect. :p

Rossticus said:

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Well, he went to LSU, so what do you expect. :p

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Ok fair point

GAC06 said:

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Yes, THIS is what will be a problem for Ukraines farmland. Not Russian occupation, not Russian cluster munitions, not the already massive amounts of UXO, not the massive number of mines Russia has laid.

Hilarious to see the "independent thinker" crowd get wound up because someone on Twitter told them to clutch pearls over DPICM.

Shocking that those squealing now were silent as Russia used cluster munitions and WP during their unprovoked invasion.

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On what basis should we refuse to restart mustard gas production and provide that to Zelensky, by your standards? Or would it be better to encourage the Germans to do so on "our" behalf?

Interesting to see "independent thinker crowd" used as a term of denigration/insult. Thank you.

Gee I don't know. Maybe there's some difference but I can't quite put my finger on it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Chemical_Weapons_Convention

TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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Russia could easily avoid any Russians getting hit by cluster bombs by sending their troops home.

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So war crimes are OK if your side decides the other side is wrong.

Excellent moral high ground there.

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For me everything is on the table when defending my home and country from invasion.

Teslag said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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Russia could easily avoid any Russians getting hit by cluster bombs by sending their troops home.

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So war crimes are OK if your side decides the other side is wrong.

Excellent moral high ground there.

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For me everything is on the table when defending my home and country from invasion.

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Calm down dude. You're not even Ukrainian.

This machismo thing you got going is getting weird.

GAC06 said:

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Gee I don't know. Maybe there's some difference but I can't quite put my finger on it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Chemical_Weapons_Convention

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Why does that convention matter? Our own laws, and 18 Nato members have banned them.

The hypocrisy is breathtaking, given how 'succesful' the 'offensive' is claimed to be, elsewhere.

Is this funny to you?

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

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Quote:

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Russia could easily avoid any Russians getting hit by cluster bombs by sending their troops home.

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So war crimes are OK if your side decides the other side is wrong.

Excellent moral high ground there.

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For me everything is on the table when defending my home and country from invasion.

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Calm down dude. You're not even Ukrainian.

This machismo thing you got going is getting weird.

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No weirder than the whole cowardice thing.

GAC06 said:

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"Congress passed a law in 2009 that says the U.S. cannot deploy or transfer cluster munitions with a dud rate higher than 1 percent. The president can sign a waiver to bypass that restriction."

Sounds legal to me. And yes I find your mental gymnastics amusing. Russia is about to get a taste of their own medicine and the squealing continues.

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" Xiden can't do this thing the law explicitly allows him to do."

GAC06 said:

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"Congress passed a law in 2009 that says the U.S. cannot deploy or transfer cluster munitions with a dud rate higher than 1 percent. The president can sign a waiver to bypass that restriction."

Sounds legal to me. And yes I find your mental gymnastics amusing. Russia is about to get a taste of their own medicine and the squealing continues.

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We're transferring cluster bombs/munitions with more than that dud rate, as we all know. That's a pencil whip 'change' to acheive the goal (also because we are out of enough 155mm ammo to xfer).

BREAKING: Here is Jen Psaki in 2022 saying that using cluster bombs is a war crime

The Biden Admin is sending cluster bomber to Ukraine today pic.twitter.com/dSMKqumDm1

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) July 7, 2023

Your hypocrisy is not actually amusing, it's merely pathetic.

At what point shouldn't we…by that standard, just contract with a third party country a la Wuhan fauci flu to produce mustard gas for the UFA? Seriously, treaties/conventions aside, as law and morality don't matter to 'your side' why not, Mr. Deep thinker Team All America CCP-Dem?

What am I being hypocritical about? Be specific. We practiced with cluster bombs in the harrier. We used them to great effect in Desert Storm.

Russia has used cluster munitions in Ukraine. Ukraine is well within their rights to respond in kind. Psaki has said lots of dumb stuff but now I guess you're a fan. Then again you've been a huge Russia cheerleader despite their actual war crimes. And of course mythical war crimes like using cluster munitions.

nortex97 said:

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GAC06 said:

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"Congress passed a law in 2009 that says the U.S. cannot deploy or transfer cluster munitions with a dud rate higher than 1 percent. The president can sign a waiver to bypass that restriction."

Sounds legal to me. And yes I find your mental gymnastics amusing. Russia is about to get a taste of their own medicine and the squealing continues.

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We're transferring cluster bombs/munitions with more than that dud rate, as we all know. That's a pencil whip 'change' to acheive the goal (also because we are out of enough 155mm ammo to xfer).

BREAKING: Here is Jen Psaki in 2022 saying that using cluster bombs is a war crime

The Biden Admin is sending cluster bomber to Ukraine today pic.twitter.com/dSMKqumDm1

— Jack Poso 🇺🇸 (@JackPosobiec) July 7, 2023

Your hypocrisy is not actually amusing, it's merely pathetic.

At what point shouldn't we…by that standard, just contract with a third party country a la Wuhan fauci flu to produce mustard gas for the UFA? Seriously, treaties/conventions aside, as law and morality don't matter to 'your side' why not, Mr. Deep thinker Team All America CCP-Dem?

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Speaking of hypocrisy, I must have missed all of the "other perspectives" throwing temper tantrums about Russia's actions during their unprovoked and pointless invasion.

For the people recently concerned about Ukraine using cluster munitions inside their own country, I got some bad news for you.

Russia fired 10,000,000+ artillery, rockets, cluster munitions, & more inside Ukraine over the past 500 days.

You don’t want to know the dud rate. pic.twitter.com/G4aD03m3Eo

— CJ (@CasualArtyFan) July 7, 2023

GAC06 said:

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What am I being hypocritical about? Be specific. We practiced with cluster bombs in the harrier. We used them to great effect in Desert Storm.

Russia has used cluster munitions in Ukraine. Ukraine is well within their rights to respond in kind. Psaki has said lots of dumb stuff but now I guess you're a fan. Then again you've been a huge Russia cheerleader despite their actual war crimes. And of course mythical war crimes like using cluster munitions.

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I think they are pissed because this puts a dent in that whole Russia sending tons of bodies into ukriane fantasy.

All of the banned / not banned munitions aside...if I'm the country being invaded then all bets are off. Really don't care what's "illegal". Alls fair as far as I'm concerned aside from WMDs.

To me, the gray area becomes do you relax your own standards to help an ally win. And therein lies the problem of having a go/no go list of munitions. You are always going to be a hypocrite with that.

But that's the whole point. Why not just pay someone to make chemical weapons? If so many nato countries, dem spokesmen, and our own laws say these are war crimes/illegal to use, why not? If there's no line, fine, I just prefer some of the "oh Russia bad" war cheerleaders explicitly say so.

If there is a line, though, what is it? Why?

nortex97 said:

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But that's the whole point. Why not just pay someone to make chemical weapons? If so many nato countries, dem spokesmen, and our own laws say these are war crimes/illegal to use, why not? If there's no line, fine, I just prefer some of the "oh Russia bad" war cheerleaders explicitly say so.

If there is a line, though, what is it? Why?

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Esoteric answer: wars were once waged under certain rules and honor. The elites treated as a game. A hobby. And when the marauding king ran out of money...the war stopped and everyone went home. This bleeds over into monetary theory but that's a different thread....

Some of what we see today is a carryover from that. The problem is that weaponry and munitions are so far beyond those ancient rules that it's just not as easy to find a clear demarcation like you could back then. Thus, you have constant scope creep into what's "illegal" or not.

nortex97 said:

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But that's the whole point. Why not just pay someone to make chemical weapons? If so many nato countries, dem spokesmen, and our own laws say these are war crimes/illegal to use, why not? If there's no line, fine, I just prefer some of the "oh Russia bad" war cheerleaders explicitly say so.

If there is a line, though, what is it? Why?

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You've literally been shown the bolded is a lie yet you roll with it anyway. Perspectives indeed.