From a source.

Quote:

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As long as the Russians are reluctant to take heavy casualties, the war will continue until Biden loses the 2024 election. Biden will pour U.S. weaponry and mercenary/proxy troops into Ukraine in sufficient quantities to shore up the battered Ukrainian army. There are thousands of Bradleys and Abrams in the U.S. inventory. A decisive Russian victory will not be cheap, and it will not be achieved until Putin is willing to pay the price.


There are many kinds of victory. The destruction of the dollar is a victory. The de-militarization of NATO is a victory. The applications to the SCO and BRICs are victories. The success of all of those battles is dependent on the Russian people being able to enjoy the fruits of those wins.

Personally, I love that Putin so highly values human life, first his own, and second those of his opponents. It's rare for a Christian to actually try to live Christian values today, when there are many faster and easier paths to take.

It should inform everyone about the pace of the SMO that the Russian people largely are well behind Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. Sure there are people who complain and criticize, but they are a relatively small, but loud, minority.

---

I don't agree with that last part (or much of the rest), I think Putin is a bad actor, as stated many times. But, it's true the BRICS alliance continues to gain strength, and the dollar is imperiled by/during this conflagration.

A Canadian perspective from one who is poking her nose outside the narrative box: Daring to talk diplomacy.

Quote:

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And maybe that's why talking about diplomacy and negotiations gets you instantly called a genocide supporter in Canada; because our collective understanding of what's possible has been so constricted, so torqued that there's zero space to imagine negotiations that aren't 100% caving to Russia.

This is a fallacy.

You can't say any of this publicly though. It's not allowed. Everything I have said here is Russian propaganda, straight from the Kremlin itself. Didn't you know? Talking about peace is a Russian ploy. Because if there's anything that Russia has shown the world at all, it's how much they love pea no, wait.

Anyway, I'm not an expert in Russia or Ukraine. I know Canada and Canadians and so I speak about that to them. I have no opinion on how Ukrainians themselves should feel or what they should do that isn't my place. But I do know that the war in Iraq didn't end because Iraq was armed to the teeth. I know that the war in Afghanistan didn't end for any benevolent feelings on behalf of the Americans. Wars end when the aggressor is forced to realize that there's nothing in it for them to keep it going. Diplomacy is a process to ensure the aggressor comes to understand this. It takes deft diplomacy and negotiations to end this because the war machine will always march along if it can, as long as there's money to be made. And from where we stand today, sadly, there are still billions and billions to be made.

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Caution; the above link is not from a licensed journalist. Probably censored on the book of faces/CIA site.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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YouBet said:

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A nitpick....calling this a Forever War is not really a straw man. The US government has said we will fight this war as long as Zelensky wants us to. They have literally said it's at his discretion on how long we fight.

So our government had made the decision to exit a 20+ year WoT to hop right into another one where a foreign leader is dictating our involvement. Both political parties have said #1 issue for voters is the Ukraine War.

Think about that...we have abdicated a war decision to a foreign leader while congress gaslights the populace and says this is our #1 priority.

---

The strawman was people like Nortex and others claiming all posters on the logistics thread, or anyone who doubts his amazing "believed by some" sources from random substack bloggers support a "forever war", which basically no one has said.

I definitely think there should be a wind down plan long term but I don't mind the government not saying that publicly. If we said publicly "we'll give you to December 2023" then Putin would know he can just wait it out.

---

Normally, I understand the point of saying one thing in public and the reality in private. That's SOP and we all had thousands of arguments about that very thing during the WoT. However, at this point in our country's "evolution", I do not trust our government anymore (at all) to actually convey clear goals and a wind down plan. This administration is so unbelievably inept and corrupt that to just assume they are being logical and strategic on the backend is a tall order.

And I believe that is a reasonable take by me considering the evidence we already have with this admin's actions. They have proven over and over they are incompetent and do not have this country's citizens best interests at a heart.

Quote:

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a stupid/bloody civil war largely with our own funding/weapons, against the will of the remaining 15 or so million Ukrainians,

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One country invaded another and it's a "civil war".

That's certainly another perspective.

And now the Ukrainians don't want us there. Even though we aren't there. And they fight awfully hard for people that desperately want to be Russians.

So todays RT summary is…

Russia can't put down a civil war being waged in a sovereign country with 70 new factory fresh T-90's against Ukrainians that would rather be Russian subjects.

Teslag said:

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So todays RT summary is…

Russia can't put down a civil war being waged in a sovereign country with 70 new factory fresh T-90's against Ukrainians that would rather be Russian subjects.

---

You mean the ethnic Russians who want to be Russian citizens?

Ag with kids said:

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YouBet said:

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A nitpick....calling this a Forever War is not really a straw man. The US government has said we will fight this war as long as Zelensky wants us to. They have literally said it's at his discretion on how long we fight.

So our government had made the decision to exit a 20+ year WoT to hop right into another one where a foreign leader is dictating our involvement. Both political parties have said #1 issue for voters is the Ukraine War.

Think about that...we have abdicated a war decision to a foreign leader while congress gaslights the populace and says this is our #1 priority.

---

Ummm...

The WoT did involve a bunch of troops. This is just sending money/supplies.

A world of difference between hopping into "another one (war)"...

---

I get that but it doesn't change the fact that we've spent $100B on someone else's sovereignty while supporting open borders for ourselves. That reality grinds my gears more than anything.

And for months we heard the argument: "Congress can do two things at the same time...derp".

Well, they clearly can't or won't and if that's the case then strings should be attached to funding someone else's borders that require we secure our own first.

If we weren't helping Ukraine we'd still have the same border issues.

GAC06 said:

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If we weren't helping Ukraine we'd still have the same border issues.

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If it were up to me, Ukraine wouldn't have gotten help in the first place unless/until we committed to our own border issues first.

That's my point.

GAC06 said:

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If we weren't helping Ukraine we'd still have the same border issues.

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Not to mention almost all of that $100 billion was already spent since it was existing equipment.

GAC06 said:

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If we weren't helping Ukraine we'd still have the same border issues.

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We are only 'helping' Ukraine to become depopulated and run by Russia more slowly, for a few years.

Some of the above comments are typically dismissive of the huge death total in this war. Hint: Ukraine is finished. It's over for them, just a matter of time, thanks to our 'support' for their corrupt leadership.

400K casualties? Their biggest problem before the war was emigration. 80 percent of them don't want anything to do with military service to the government. People are believing…propaganda, to think this is a heroic fight for freedom/liberty/sovereignty.

And to your point, the border crisis would be THE biggest policy discussion were it not for this insane war.

TheBonifaceOption said:

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Teslag said:

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So todays RT summary is…

Russia can't put down a civil war being waged in a sovereign country with 70 new factory fresh T-90's against Ukrainians that would rather be Russian subjects.

---

You mean the ethnic Russians who want to be Russian citizens?

---

Ethnic Russians only make up 17% of Ukraine.

nortex97 said:

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GAC06 said:

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If we weren't helping Ukraine we'd still have the same border issues.

---

We are only 'helping' Ukraine to become depopulated and run by Russia more slowly, for a few years.

Some of the above comments are typically dismissive of the huge death total in this war. Hint: Ukraine is finished. It's over for them, just a matter of time, thanks to our 'support' for their corrupt leadership.

400K casualties? Their biggest problem before the war was emigration. 80 percent of them don't want anything to do with military service to the government. People are believing…propaganda, to think this is a heroic fight for freedom/liberty/sovereignty.

And to your point, the border crisis would be THE biggest policy discussion were it not for this insane war.

---

Your link is 400,000 combined casualties for Ukraine AND Russia, with most being Russian.

Quote:

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According to an assessment collated by the U.S. Defence Intelligence Agency, Russia has suffered 189,500-223,000 total casualties, including 35,500-43,000 killed in action and 154,000-180,000 wounded.
Ukraine has suffered 124,500-131,000 total casualties, including 15,500-17,500 killed in action and 109,000-113,500 wounded in action, according to the document entitled "Russia/Ukraine - Assessed Combat Sustainability and Attrition."

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And no link at all for your 80% number.





Perspectives sometimes are just outright fabrications.

Also from YOUR source

Quote:

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Russia, according to the Defence Intelligence Agency, has lost 2,048 tanks and 3,900 APCs while Ukraine has lost 468 tanks and 1,020 APCs. Ukraine has 802 tanks and 3,498 APCs fielded, while Russia has 419 tanks and 2,928 APCs in theatre.

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But 100 new T-90's a month

The link was in april/may.

Before the big/mythologized 'offensive.'

80 percent is from a link I provided above. I don't care what you believe, yet again. I care about people dying needlessly, something that clearly differentiates us.

nortex97 said:

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The link was in april/may.

Before the big/mythologized 'offensive.'

80 percent is from a link I provided above. I don't care what you believe, yet again. I care about people dying needlessly, something that clearly differentiates us.

---

The thing that differentiates is is that you believe subjugation is preferable to liberty.

Had you been at the Alamo you'd have berated Travis for not rolling out the red carpet for Santa Anna

Yeah that was before the mythical offensive where Russia has destroyed 2000 mythical tanks or whatever ludicrous bull**** propaganda our comrades like to parrot

nortex97 said:

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GAC06 said:

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If we weren't helping Ukraine we'd still have the same border issues.

---

We are only 'helping' Ukraine to become depopulated and run by Russia more slowly, for a few years.

Some of the above comments are typically dismissive of the huge death total in this war. Hint: Ukraine is finished. It's over for them, just a matter of time, thanks to our 'support' for their corrupt leadership.

400K casualties? Their biggest problem before the war was emigration. 80 percent of them don't want anything to do with military service to the government. People are believing…propaganda, to think this is a heroic fight for freedom/liberty/sovereignty.

And to your point, the border crisis would be THE biggest policy discussion were it not for this insane war.

---

The article even says nothing in those numbers have been verified...

But, if they are, I find it amusing that it's a 3:1 kill ratio for Ukraine. But, those are rookie numbers. They need to pump them up.

And the border crisis wouldn't be ANY different in policy discussions right now without this war. Why would the admin or media change their bias just because Russian wasn't being an ******* and invading its neighbor?

That's Nortex' entire bit. Post a bunch of nonsense, then embed links and hope no one reads them because it usually contains contradictory information.

nortex97 said:

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The link was in april/may.

Before the big/mythologized 'offensive.'

80 percent is from a link I provided above. I don't care what you believe, yet again. I care about people dying needlessly, something that clearly differentiates us.

---

Unless I'm missing something, there was no link to your 80% number from earlier today, just pasted text. Feel free to share the source though, which I'm sure is completely unbiased.

nortex97 said:

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The link was in april/may.

Before the big/mythologized 'offensive.'

80 percent is from a link I provided above. I don't care what you believe, yet again. I care about people dying needlessly, something that clearly differentiates us.

---

We do too.

That's why we've said Russia could 100% stop all the needless dying by LEAVING THE COUNTRY HE INVADED.

Russia goes home. People stop dying.

Ukraine won't continue the fight by driving up to Moscow.

Teslag said:

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nortex97 said:

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The link was in april/may.

Before the big/mythologized 'offensive.'

80 percent is from a link I provided above. I don't care what you believe, yet again. I care about people dying needlessly, something that clearly differentiates us.

---

The thing that differentiates is is that you believe subjugation is preferable to liberty.

Had you been at the Alamo you'd have berated Travis for not rolling out the red carpet for Santa Anna

---

If we just lay down and take it in the ass, at least he'll let us live...

Needless dying over...

Exactly. It's like not only blaming the rape victim for what she wore, but also berating her for any injuries she sustained when fighting back.

The casualty article was from Reuters from last month or april. Whatever, the Russians were on the offensive/attack most of the war, but not the past 30 days. Unlike some, I am saddened by both sides' deaths/casualties.

was completely destroyed by Russian hackers from the Solntspek group.

This database contained population data and included data on men of military age. 👇 pic.twitter.com/RQ67KFsTNJ

— Djole 🇷🇸 (@onlydjole) July 6, 2023

Ukrainians thanking Russians no doubt for this hack.

Quote:

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Russian hackers have supposedly deleted AFU database for information on conscriptable men and it's doubtful how much if at all can be recovered. That combined with (like mentioned earlier) the need to go search for 80 % of conscripts might throw some sand in the mobilization machinery.

---

Truth: there's

Quote:

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Today I'm wondering what an honest deep dive into the economic outlook of Ukraine looks like. What are Ukraine's immutable liabilities? What are its unencumbered assets? What are its mortgaged assets?

How many of its best managers and technical staff have fled with their families, and started new lives in other countries? How much of its essential infrastructure has been damaged, and what would it cost to repair it/how long will it take to repair it/ what negative impact does it exert on the rest of the economy, and does Ukraine still have within its borders what's needed to begin repairs?

Is the West already figuring that rebuilding Ukraine would require the West to essentially both fund it, and manage it, including supplying much of the labor and supervision?

Would areas adjacent to what Russia occupied be considered too risky to invest in, and would only the parts of Ukraine still more or less functional, albeit heavily subsidized, be able to count on getting restored?

How much of Ukraine's economy is on life support? What companies and even industries are hanging on by their fingernails, and would go under if the West wasn't ensuring they got supplies that Ukraine can't make, or can't afford on its own to import?

I'm wondering at what deals Western governments have made with various companies, and what deals the Zelensky regime has made with those governments and companies. Who exactly is on the hook for exactly what?

Ukraine has vast assets in natural resources to entice investors.

Keeping them viable is done because it's unthinkable politically to not do so. But the cost still gets haggled over, and imo sooner or later the cost of keeping Ukraine afloat is going to come front and center. And following on the heels of that will be discussion of the cost of rebuilding Ukraine. Two of the big questions there will be, who foots the bill, and what can they expect in return?
That discussion could be an amazing spectacle.

---

After the trillion dollar rebuilding tab is taken by the US taxpayer, the political leadership will…change/retire (LOL, Joe Biden?), and guess what? The 'green' economy of Ukraine Blackrock and the CCP are talking up will be abandoned.

Teslag said:

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That's Nortex' entire bit. Post a bunch of nonsense, then embed links and hope no one reads them because it usually contains contradictory information.

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You forgot step 3 - ignore when he's called out and just post more nonsense, usually in the form of either embedded links or quoted posts with no links at all.

Teslag said:

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TheBonifaceOption said:

---

Teslag said:

---

So todays RT summary is…

Russia can't put down a civil war being waged in a sovereign country with 70 new factory fresh T-90's against Ukrainians that would rather be Russian subjects.

---

You mean the ethnic Russians who want to be Russian citizens?

---

Ethnic Russians only make up 17% of Ukraine.

---

That's not the slam dunk you think it is.

This war has always been about the Donbass, where Russians are the majority. They have been engaged in a civil war for a decade. I seem to recall His Holiness, Barack Obama reinforce the language of the UN charter where he repeated that every people have a right to self-determination (which means self governance.)

Donestk and Luhansk have been requesting recognition of independence throughout the conflict before Russia proper got involved. But no one in the EU or US is recognizing them, which is odd because the UN brokered a ceasefire between kiev and these non-recognized political sovereignties.

Do we really need to dredge up the atrocities Ukraine committed against their own citizens?

All of the folks running Kiev (from abroad and literally there) know the Donbas/Crimea will never be part of a "Ukraine" again in their lifetimes.

Quote:

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In 2014, when Crimea was annexed, two-thirds of the peninsula's population was comprised of ethnic Russians. The situation in Ukraine's east and south is different, as not even half of all people there are Russian. According to a 2001 census, most ethnic Russians lived in the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, making up 40% of the population. The regions of Zaporizhzhia and Kherson are home to some 25% and 15% ethnic Russians, respectively.

---

This is all just theater/a display for other reasons. Both sides have attacked and endangered civilians deliberately.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

The link was in april/may.

Before the big/mythologized 'offensive.'

80 percent is from a link I provided above. I don't care what you believe, yet again. I care about people dying needlessly, something that clearly differentiates us.

---

Unless I'm missing something, there was no link to your 80% number from earlier today, just pasted text. Feel free to share the source though, which I'm sure is completely unbiased.

---

My sincerest apologies, I'll humor you this time. Only 20 percent of the folks summoned/drafted, show up when ordered to do so, in Lviv.

Quote:

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Employees of the territorial recruitment and social support centers will not refuse to serve summonses on the streets, because only 20% of men voluntarily come to the military commissariats.

Oleksandr Tishchenko, head of the Lviv Regional Territorial Recruitment and Social Support Center, said this in an interview with Leopolis, Ukrainian News Agency reports.

"Somewhere around 20% (half of whom are contract soldiers) of the planned task that we have to perform voluntarily come to the military commissariats. If there are no searches, sending to clarify the data, then mobilization may be in jeopardy," he said.

---

Further, to repeat a theme, it's a ghost town (not from link).

Quote:

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The area governed by Kiev has essentially no economy to speak of. Everything was wrecked after 2014. For example In 2021; 90% of wage earners grossed less than 500/month. 30% earned around 250/month.

Demographics: Between 2014-2021, 8 million people fled overseas. (5 million to EU and 3 million to RF) Since 2022 another 8 million fled (roughly at the same rate.)

7 million people live in the DPR/LPR/Crimea.

---

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

Teslag said:

---

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

Teslag said:

---

So todays RT summary is…

Russia can't put down a civil war being waged in a sovereign country with 70 new factory fresh T-90's against Ukrainians that would rather be Russian subjects.

---

You mean the ethnic Russians who want to be Russian citizens?

---

Ethnic Russians only make up 17% of Ukraine.

---

That's not the slam dunk you think it is.

This war has always been about the Donbass, where Russians are the majority. They have been engaged in a civil war for a decade. I seem to recall His Holiness, Barack Obama reinforce the language of the UN charter where he repeated that every people have a right to self-determination (which means self governance.)

Donestk and Luhansk have been requesting recognition of independence throughout the conflict before Russia proper got involved. But no one in the EU or US is recognizing them, which is odd because the UN brokered a ceasefire between kiev and these non-recognized political sovereignties.

Do we really need to dredge up the atrocities Ukraine committed against their own citizens?

---

Always been about the Donbas?

Lol move those goalposts and forgot Russia opened multiple fronts and tried to take Kiev. Also ignore Russias stated goal that Ukraine isn't a real country and should be part of Russia again. Yes, just about the donbass. Of course.

nortex97 said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

The link was in april/may.

Before the big/mythologized 'offensive.'

80 percent is from a link I provided above. I don't care what you believe, yet again. I care about people dying needlessly, something that clearly differentiates us.

---

Unless I'm missing something, there was no link to your 80% number from earlier today, just pasted text. Feel free to share the source though, which I'm sure is completely unbiased.

---

My sincerest apologies, I'll humor you this time. Only 20 percent of the folks summoned/drafted, show up when ordered to do so, in Lviv.

Quote:

---

Employees of the territorial recruitment and social support centers will not refuse to serve summonses on the streets, because only 20% of men voluntarily come to the military commissariats.

Oleksandr Tishchenko, head of the Lviv Regional Territorial Recruitment and Social Support Center, said this in an interview with Leopolis, Ukrainian News Agency reports.

"Somewhere around 20% (half of whom are contract soldiers) of the planned task that we have to perform voluntarily come to the military commissariats. If there are no searches, sending to clarify the data, then mobilization may be in jeopardy," he said.

---

Further, to repeat a theme, it's a ghost town (not from link).

Quote:

---

The area governed by Kiev has essentially no economy to speak of. Everything was wrecked after 2014. For example In 2021; 90% of wage earners grossed less than 500/month. 30% earned around 250/month.

Demographics: Between 2014-2021, 8 million people fled overseas. (5 million to EU and 3 million to RF) Since 2022 another 8 million fled (roughly at the same rate.)

7 million people live in the DPR/LPR/Crimea.

---

---

This is your big verified data source? Seriously?

notex said:

---

All of the folks running Kiev (from abroad and literally there) know the Donbas/Crimea will never be part of a "Ukraine" again in their lifetimes.

Quote:

---

In 2014, when Crimea was annexed, two-thirds of the peninsula's population was comprised of ethnic Russians. The situation in Ukraine's east and south is different, as not even half of all people there are Russian. According to a 2001 census, most ethnic Russians lived in the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, making up 40% of the population. The regions of Zaporizhzhia and Kherson are home to some 25% and 15% ethnic Russians, respectively.

---

This is all just theater/a display for other reasons. Both sides have attacked and endangered civilians deliberately.

---

Oh man, this guy out Ukraine in quotes and everything. Well, definitely not a sovereign nation now.

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

Teslag said:

---

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

Teslag said:

---

So todays RT summary is…

Russia can't put down a civil war being waged in a sovereign country with 70 new factory fresh T-90's against Ukrainians that would rather be Russian subjects.

---

You mean the ethnic Russians who want to be Russian citizens?

---

Ethnic Russians only make up 17% of Ukraine.

---

That's not the slam dunk you think it is.

This war has always been about the Donbass, where Russians are the majority. They have been engaged in a civil war for a decade. I seem to recall His Holiness, Barack Obama reinforce the language of the UN charter where he repeated that every people have a right to self-determination (which means self governance.)

Donestk and Luhansk have been requesting recognition of independence throughout the conflict before Russia proper got involved. But no one in the EU or US is recognizing them, which is odd because the UN brokered a ceasefire between kiev and these non-recognized political sovereignties.

Do we really need to dredge up the atrocities Ukraine committed against their own citizens?

---

Russia proper was involved from day one. Not even their propagandists believe it was some organic uprising.

GAC06 said:

---

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

Teslag said:

---

TheBonifaceOption said:

---

Teslag said:

---

So todays RT summary is…

Russia can't put down a civil war being waged in a sovereign country with 70 new factory fresh T-90's against Ukrainians that would rather be Russian subjects.

---

You mean the ethnic Russians who want to be Russian citizens?

---

Ethnic Russians only make up 17% of Ukraine.

---

That's not the slam dunk you think it is.

This war has always been about the Donbass, where Russians are the majority. They have been engaged in a civil war for a decade. I seem to recall His Holiness, Barack Obama reinforce the language of the UN charter where he repeated that every people have a right to self-determination (which means self governance.)

Donestk and Luhansk have been requesting recognition of independence throughout the conflict before Russia proper got involved. But no one in the EU or US is recognizing them, which is odd because the UN brokered a ceasefire between kiev and these non-recognized political sovereignties.

Do we really need to dredge up the atrocities Ukraine committed against their own citizens?

---

Russia proper was involved from day one. Not even their propagandists believe it was some organic uprising.

---

Russia had boots in Ukraine since Feb 2014?

So I guess the invasion in 2022 isn't anything special.

You keep using the word sovereign like you understand what it means.

Yes, they did