Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

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Teslag
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1:05p, 6/23/23
AG
"There is no good side" might be one of the most ridiculous comments repeatedly posted over the past year. The good side will always be the one that isn't engaging in mass rape, purposely targeting civilians hundreds of miles from the front, violently invading a sovereign neighbor, or committing atrocities like Bucha.


But like there's no good side because money or something.
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nortex97
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 1:23p, 6/23/23
AG
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Do you consider them cowards? The Ukrainians hiding?
No. I suspect most Ukrainians, of military age or not, are well aware of the nature of this war and how their lives are being willingly sacrificed for various purposes, monetary and otherwise.
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GAC06
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In reply to nortex97 • 1:35p, 6/23/23
AG
I guess "Lord Bebo" forgot what happened with his pontoon bridge example
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to nortex97 • 1:44p, 6/23/23
AG
Yes, the Russians have learned from their **** ups. That doesn't mean Ukraine cannot kick them out of their country or shouldn't even try.

ETA This guy thinks "Lord Bebo" is a ****ing idiot




Scott Ritter is literally a Russian paid pedophile who celebrated their invasion of Ukraine and has been proven wrong countless times since then, so you lose a lot of credibility questioning why he's not viewed as a respectable source in anything.

Sure there are Ukrainians hiding and avoiding service. That has no bearing on the righteousness of continued Ukrainian resistance by the far more numerous number of those willing to go fight for their country and sovereignty. It doesn't mean they're being, "sacrificed." We had our own draft dodgers and pacifists in WWII. Should we have just given in to the Japanese and Germans to avoid the hundreds of thousands of dead and the destruction across the Pacific, Africa, and Europe? It's not like the US was invaded or anything, and appeasement would have been so much easier, right? Did we "sacrifice" 400,000 men for money and politics, or did they die defending this country and its very foundations?
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J. Walter Weatherman
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In reply to nortex97 • 1:53p, 6/23/23
nortex97 said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
I don't understand how anyone continues to take the Russian MOD's numbers or assessments at face value. Their claims have historically been greatly overstated.
I would estimate the Russian numbers are generally inflated about 30 to 40 percent. There's no reason to believe what is told by folks like Putin, Prigozhin, Shoigu, Jinping, Xiden, or of course saint Zelensky.

Quote:
In the spring of 2023 the Ukrainian army was much weaker than when the war started. The Russian military had grown and was stronger. It also had well prepared positions. 'Western' politicians, the propagandized public and military commands failed to recognize those facts.

NATO had simulated the Ukrainian counter-offensive:
Quote:
Logic dictates that any responsible use of the KORA simulation system would have predicted the failure of the 47th Brigade's attack. According to The Washington Post, the officers of the 47th Brigade "planned their assaults and then let the [KORA] program show them the results how their Russian enemies might respond, where they could make a breakthrough and where they would suffer losses." The KORA simulation allowed the Ukrainian officers to coordinate their actions "to test how they'd work together on the battlefield."
Given that the Ukrainian force structure was insufficient to accomplish the mission-critical task of suppression, there was no chance for the Ukrainian forces to accomplish the actual assault requirements of a breaching operation the destruction of enemy forces on the opposite side of the obstacle barrier being breached. The Ukrainians, however, came away from their KORA experience confident that they had crafted a winning plan capable of overcoming the Russian defenses in and around Orekhov.

When one examines the structure of a KORA-based simulation, it becomes clear that the system is completely dependent upon the various inputs which define the simulation as a whole.
Quote:


The weekend edition of the German business daily headlines: "This isn't a counter-offensive. It is a bloody crash test."

It is now time to acknowledge that the western military assumptions were completely wrong:
Quote:
In its early phases, Ukraine's counteroffensive is having less success and Russian forces are showing more competence than western assessments expected, two western officials and a senior US military official tell CNN.

The counteroffensive is "not meeting expectations on any front," one of the officials said.

According to the Western assessments, Russian lines of defense have been proving well-fortified, making it difficult for Ukrainian forces to breach them. In addition, Russian forces have had success bogging down Ukrainian armor with missile attacks and mines and have been deploying air power more effectively.

Ukrainian forces are proving "vulnerable" to minefields and Russian forces "competent" in their defense, one of the Western officials said.
Even the neoconservative Institute for the Study of War was forced to eat some tiny bits of craw and to acknowledge the competence of the Russian forces:
Quote:
The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) responded to the Ukrainian attack with an uncharacteristic degree of coherency and praised Southern Military District elements for repelling the attack and regaining lost positions.
Anyone who thinks that coherency is uncharacteristic for the Russians should go back and read up on Operation Bagration.

ISW also writes:
Quote:
Russian forces appear to have executed their formal tactical defensive doctrine in response to the Ukrainian attacks ...
Well, what did the ISW 'experts' expect? That the Russians would use their manuals as toilet paper and run away when the turkey shooting begins?

In their utter stupidity the neoconservatives probably really believed that.

The assessments made did not acknowledge the dubious quality of freshly stood up Ukrainian forces.
They did not acknowledge the changes and growth in the military structures on the Russian side. They failed to recognize the quality of the Russian fortifications and military capabilities and the deep roots of their doctrine.

The results are the consequence of ignoring reality, of seeing what one wants to see.
The politics of this war demanded that the 'western' side wins. NATO military was biased towards that. Instead of telling the politicians what a realistic outcome would be it delivered hopeful assessments that defied reality.
It's interesting that some analysts like Scott Ritter are 'not respectable' yet folks still stick by silly ISW propaganda on the other hand.

I remain more convinced than ever, this week, that we are not being presented the truth about the war, in either it's cost or planning. Team Xiden is 100 percent interested in covering up the Biden crime family corruption in Ukraine/Russia/China.

I recognize there is some cognitive dissonance among those who bought the PR/lies, but the myth of the UFA 'spring offensive' as we approach July has failed...by design. It's pointless, politically driven at best.





But the Ukrainians just want to fight for their sovereignty under Zelensky!



Again, thanks to those above for at least pausing long enough to consider alternative viewpoints. There is no 'good' side in Ukraine.


You can try and overcomplicate it if you want, but the bad side is the one that decided to invade and start the war, and that has spent the last year bombing civilians and destroying cities.
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GAC06
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2:01p, 6/23/23
AG


We might need another "another perspective" thread if the liberating Russians are really fighting their criminal mercenary group
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LarryElder
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In reply to GAC06 • 2:02p, 6/23/23
GAC06 said:


We might need another "another perspective" thread if the liberating Russians are really fighting their criminal mercenary group


BNO news???
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GAC06
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In reply to LarryElder • 2:07p, 6/23/23
AG
Hey, I'm just bringing "another perspective".

I'll wait until Ritter confirms it though.

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Not a Bot
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2:09p, 6/23/23
AG




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J. Walter Weatherman
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In reply to Not a Bot • 2:25p, 6/23/23
Not a Bot said:






We'll, that's quite a view "from Another Perspective."
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Ag with kids
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In reply to nortex97 • 2:32p, 6/23/23
AG
nortex97 said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Do you consider them cowards? The Ukrainians hiding?
No. I suspect most Ukrainians, of military age or not, are well aware of the nature of this war and how their lives are being willingly sacrificed for various purposes, monetary and otherwise.
Some people did something...

That's how we should describe how this war began...
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Faustus
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2:33p, 6/23/23
Prigozhin is a Soros pawn in bed with the Big Guy trying to groom our kids.
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Ag with kids
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In reply to GAC06 • 2:36p, 6/23/23
AG
GAC06 said:


We might need another "another perspective" thread if the liberating Russians are really fighting their criminal mercenary group
Maybe the Wagner's hadn't committed their monthly war crimes quota and the Russian Army had to pay them a visit?
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nortex97
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In reply to Ag with kids • 3:16p, 6/23/23
AG
The Wagner stuff I have not figured out at all. IMHO they really are 'bad actors' in the theater (same with the Chechens) on that side. Prigoyzhin seems…theatrical/mentally unstable himself.

Heck, I dunno. Keep in mind many of their losses were quite heavy/urban as they were sort of 'used' as the criminal ex-con/prisoner cannon fodder. If you'd asked me for a 'guess' I'd have speculated they'd be put back into 'action' by now but I suppose the Russians are basically playing defense with regular russian army forces now mostly.

The Wall Street Journal had a big piece on the private military companies/Wagner recently I haven't watched.
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GAC06
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3:19p, 6/23/23
AG
Can some of our resident Ivans I mean, independent thinkers who are more plugged into Russian propaganda I mean "another perspective" tell us whether there's really a mutiny going on or if it's an elaborate distraction?

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Faustus
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In reply to GAC06 • 3:25p, 6/23/23
GAC06 said:
Can some of our resident Ivans I mean, independent thinkers who are more plugged into Russian propaganda I mean "another perspective" tell us whether there's really a mutiny going on or if it's an elaborate distraction?

Also, "Elaborate distraction" is not the preferred nomenclature. Feint, please.
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PlaneCrashGuy
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3:26p, 6/23/23
AG
Is Russia still in Ukraine?
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 3:27p, 6/23/23
AG
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Is Russia still in Ukraine?


Yeah, but apparently they're shooting each other instead of Ukraine now.
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GAC06
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 3:27p, 6/23/23
AG
No, because Ukraine isn't a real country, comrade
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PlaneCrashGuy
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3:28p, 6/23/23
AG
Scoreboard.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
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GAC06
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 3:32p, 6/23/23
AG
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Scoreboard.


If your team is fighting itself, you win either way

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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to GAC06 • 3:34p, 6/23/23
AG
I don't think the Nazi's getting war crimed in their schools and hospitals feel like they are winning. But if you're certain they can't lose, let them know! Maybe then they'll stop hiding and fight.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
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Faustus
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In reply to GAC06 • 3:35p, 6/23/23
GAC06 said:
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Scoreboard.


If your team is fighting itself, you win either way

The "special" in there gets in the way of some nifty alliteration in English.
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Faustus
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 3:38p, 6/23/23
PlaneCrashGuy said:
I don't think the Nazi's getting war crimed in their schools and hospitals feel like they are winning. But if you're certain they can't lose, let them know! Maybe then they'll stop hiding and fight.
Rough day at the office, eh?
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to Faustus • 3:38p, 6/23/23
AG
The bar, yeah.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
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Faustus
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3:39p, 6/23/23
Fair enough. I just popped a bottle of wine.
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to Faustus • 3:39p, 6/23/23
AG
If its red I hope its Prisoner. I love that stuff. Nectar from god.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
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nortex97
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In reply to Faustus • 3:40p, 6/23/23
AG
Valtersson is staunchly pro-Russian and may be right about this.



Again the whole thing is just bizarre to me. Below video might not be accurate:



Somewhat more seriously;

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Faustus
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3:41p, 6/23/23
Caymus, but Prisoner is a go to for sure.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 3:41p, 6/23/23
AG
PlaneCrashGuy said:
The bar, yeah.


Just remember it's the weekend, so the tips will be worth it. Keep up the good work
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to Faustus • 3:42p, 6/23/23
AG
Ugh so jealous. Prisoners is my walmart brand Caymus, which is my fav.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
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J. Walter Weatherman
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 3:48p, 6/23/23
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Scoreboard.


Well at least you've given up the fake neutrality/"just asking questions" viewpoint and are just openly rooting for Russia now.
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to J. Walter Weatherman • 3:49p, 6/23/23
AG
Aleays pull for the winning team
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 4:06p, 6/23/23
AG
PlaneCrashGuy said:
Aleays pull for the winning team


The "winning team" looks like it might have an armed mutiny on its hands.
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 4:09p, 6/23/23
AG
Oh no! Hopefully there isn't a Spring Counteroffensive planned soon or then Russia will be really screwed.

This reminds me of "Robert Mueller is gonna get him, just wait and see" at this point.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
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