nortex97 said:

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The Ukraine war is now going Russia's way.

Quote:

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Shift for Russia in Ukraine

Recent evidence indicates the Russian side has made tactical and operational improvements that are having an impact on the ground in Ukraine.

Washington policymakers need to update their understanding of the current trajectory of the war to ensure the U.S. is not caught off guard by battlefield events and that our interests don't suffer as a result.

There has been no shortage of legitimate evidence to support the contention that throughout 2022 the Russian side performed much worse than most expected and that Ukraine performed better than anticipated. Russia's initial battle plan was flawed at the strategic, operational, and tactical levels.

Moscow allocated an invasion force that was too small for the task, dispersed across four axes of advance (ensuring that none would be strong enough to succeed on its own), and was not equipped with supplies to sustain a long war.

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Quote:

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The trend of war is shifting toward Moscow, regardless of how upset that may make many in the West. It is the observable reality. What Washington must do is avoid the temptation to "double-down" on supporting a losing proposition and do whatever we need to bring this conflict to a rapid conclusion, preserving our future security to the maximum extent. Ignoring these realities could set up Ukraine for even greater losses and could put our own security at unacceptable future risk.

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I'm sure that's all just propaganda though. Surely freedom will win.



No way, no how, are 'we' being fed propaganda. This is all about freedom, and sovereignty, and human rights and good vs. evil etc.



This war/situation goes back a ways. It didn't all start in 2022. I'm just re-iterating this for those who choose to read this thread for posterity. Happy Memorial Day weekend, Ags.

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Glad you're excited that Russia invaded a sovereign country and took over a bunch of territory and killed a bunch of people. You and Putin can celebrate over a few shots of vodka...

I think it's sad you feel compelled to respond with such projections. Putin is not, again, a good guy by any stretch.

nortex97 said:

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I think it's sad you feel compelled to respond with such projections. Putin is not, again, a good guy by any stretch.

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And yet you use the emoji above in your post about Russia...

Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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I think it's sad you feel compelled to respond with such projections. Putin is not, again, a good guy by any stretch.

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And yet you use the emoji above in your post about Russia...

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Here we go with the emoji offenses again. Another cogent talking point.

Seriously, try to conceptualize this horrible war as not simply about 'Putin is bad and I hate him.' That's…sort of the other perspective of this whole thread. Again, right, wrong or indifferent, a Russian victory in Ukraine would both prevent ongoing risk of nuclear war, and save us trillions of $$$ we are about to send to saint Zelensky's corrupt government (to say nothing about ending the ongoing bloodshed). Not all Russian victories/wins/favorable outcomes in the war have to be viewed by everyone as a horrible thing, only good for Putin. In fact, a Russian defeat might…lead to a vindictive Russia that is more dangerous to Nato/security. But gee, it would be wonderful to hurt Putin's feelings.

Further, to take the obvious counter, we have a plethora of posters here (and on the 'tactical and strategic updates' thread) who champion team Biden-Zelensky 'despite' Biden being a terrible human/corrupt/senile (and Zelensky all but the latter), and are happy to disregard how the conflict has only benefited Xi Jinping and the CCP.

Have a blessed day.

Always with the early morning posts. But I guess it's afternoon in Moscow

I haven't been following this thread but curious if someone can explain the actual dollar cost vs. accounting cost for our contribution to Ukraine. The reason I'm asking is I read an article about how the DoD was under depreciating the older assets, found an error, and when corrected they had more budget capacity. My point is, do we understand the real cost (cash outlay) vs cost of inventory?

FWIW - I think we are getting significant value for our spend - geopolitical, military tactics, intelligence, and best of all it isn't costing US lives. That said, there is a point of diminishing returns.

SamjamAg said:

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I haven't been following this thread but curious if someone can explain the actual dollar cost vs. accounting cost for our contribution to Ukraine. The reason I'm asking is I read an article about how the DoD was under depreciating the older assets, found an error, and when corrected they had more budget capacity. My point is, do we understand the real cost (cash outlay) vs cost of inventory?

FWIW - I think we are getting significant value for our spend - geopolitical, military tactics, intelligence, and best of all it isn't costing US lives. That said, there is a point of diminishing returns.

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I think you are correct. Plus I feel that we are doing the right thing. I think there are a lot on this thread that are just professional whiners.

nortex97 said:

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Ag with kids said:

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nortex97 said:

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I think it's sad you feel compelled to respond with such projections. Putin is not, again, a good guy by any stretch.

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And yet you use the emoji above in your post about Russia...

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Here we go with the emoji offenses again. Another cogent talking point.

Seriously, try to conceptualize this horrible war as not simply about 'Putin is bad and I hate him.' That's…sort of the other perspective of this whole thread. Again, right, wrong or indifferent, a Russian victory in Ukraine would both prevent ongoing risk of nuclear war, and save us trillions of $$$ we are about to send to saint Zelensky's corrupt government (to say nothing about ending the ongoing bloodshed). Not all Russian victories/wins/favorable outcomes in the war have to be viewed by everyone as a horrible thing, only good for Putin. In fact, a Russian defeat might…lead to a vindictive Russia that is more dangerous to Nato/security. But gee, it would be wonderful to hurt Putin's feelings.

Further, to take the obvious counter, we have a plethora of posters here (and on the 'tactical and strategic updates' thread) who champion team Biden-Zelensky 'despite' Biden being a terrible human/corrupt/senile (and Zelensky all but the latter), and are happy to disregard how the conflict has only benefited Xi Jinping and the CCP.

Have a blessed day.

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Also conceptualize that this war isn't about Xi or Biden or Obama or 10% for the big guy or anything like that.

This is Putin being his ******* self wanting other people's **** and trying to get the band back together...

GAC06 said:

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Always with the early morning posts. But I guess it's afternoon in Moscow

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This is so weak. Questioning giving billions to proxy war in Ukraine means you are a Putin puppet parroting propagandist.

You and others cannot give one valid reason for supporting Ukraine outside of thinking Zelensky is a stud, muh faux sovereignty, Putin is a baaad dude.

Nothing ever of substance of WHY we should be in Ukraine. But questioning it is just repeating Russkie talking points.

Weak, uninformed argument you got there. Hopefully your skillz in other areas are more competent, because discussing Ukraine is not reflecting well when all you got is an attack on another poster for being on TexAgs too early meaning they are a Russian puppet.

Do you even logic bro?

Ag with kids said:

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Also conceptualize that this war isn't about Xi or Biden or Obama or 10% for the big guy or anything like that.

This is Putin being his ******* self wanting other people's **** and trying to get the band back together...

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Putin is within his right at a head of a sovereign state to pursue the interests of his country and the citizens of said country.

I don't like the dude, he is certainly capable of evil, but if we go around fighting wars over arshole leaders wanting other peoples stuff in a quest for power, there is a DNC party right here at home we can go to war against.

Yet, let's ignore that and start a war against another nuclear power. Got it. Makes total sense.

"faux sovereignty"

Russia isn't a sovereign state because they can't fight without the help of China and Iran.

fka ftc said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Also conceptualize that this war isn't about Xi or Biden or Obama or 10% for the big guy or anything like that.

This is Putin being his ******* self wanting other people's **** and trying to get the band back together...

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Putin is within his right at a head of a sovereign state to pursue the interests of his country and the citizens of said country.

I don't like the dude, he is certainly capable of evil, but if we go around fighting wars over arshole leaders wanting other peoples stuff in a quest for power, there is a DNC party right here at home we can go to war against.

Yet, let's ignore that and start a war against another nuclear power. Got it. Makes total sense

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WOW.

That's...WOW.

I got nothing. You have no concept of civilized society. Good day, sir and I hope you have a good Sunday...

SamjamAg said:

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I haven't been following this thread but curious if someone can explain the actual dollar cost vs. accounting cost for our contribution to Ukraine.

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This LINK says $77 billion through Feb 2023 ... or about 2-3 times what American taxpayers pay to subsidize junk food purchases using food stamps (SNAP).

Ag with kids said:

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fka ftc said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Also conceptualize that this war isn't about Xi or Biden or Obama or 10% for the big guy or anything like that.

This is Putin being his ******* self wanting other people's **** and trying to get the band back together...

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Putin is within his right at a head of a sovereign state to pursue the interests of his country and the citizens of said country.

I don't like the dude, he is certainly capable of evil, but if we go around fighting wars over arshole leaders wanting other peoples stuff in a quest for power, there is a DNC party right here at home we can go to war against.

Yet, let's ignore that and start a war against another nuclear power. Got it. Makes total sense

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WOW.

That's...WOW.

I got nothing. You have no concept of civilized society. Good day, sir and I hope you have a good Sunday...

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Exactly. Most find it hard to argue with the cold, hard truth of the situation.

I always have a good day. I;ve got family, health, security and such and I am tired of seeing that undermined by proxy wars protecting political interests and grifting, which is all Ukraine is.

Are the UK, France and Germany sending their political leaders and $100s of millions every other day to Ukraine for photo ops?

benchmark said:

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SamjamAg said:

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I haven't been following this thread but curious if someone can explain the actual dollar cost vs. accounting cost for our contribution to Ukraine.

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This LINK says $77 billion through Feb 2023 ... or about 2-3 times what American taxpayers pay to subsidize junk food purchases using food stamps (SNAP).

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Or about 5x what the US government has spent domestically recovering and rebuilding from catastrophic hurricanes and floods here domestically in the last 15-20 years.

fka ftc said:

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GAC06 said:

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Always with the early morning posts. But I guess it's afternoon in Moscow

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This is so weak. Questioning giving billions to proxy war in Ukraine means you are a Putin puppet parroting propagandist.

You and others cannot give one valid reason for supporting Ukraine outside of thinking Zelensky is a stud, muh faux sovereignty, Putin is a baaad dude.

Nothing ever of substance of WHY we should be in Ukraine. But questioning it is just repeating Russkie talking points.

Weak, uninformed argument you got there. Hopefully your skillz in other areas are more competent, because discussing Ukraine is not reflecting well when all you got is an attack on another poster for being on TexAgs too early meaning they are a Russian puppet.

Do you even logic bro?

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I'm sure your comrade appreciates you white knighting for him. In both of your cases, if the shoe fits, wear it. I've heard what you think is logic, but it's more like comedy.

We are deterring Russian aggression, reducing their conventional capability for future aggression, united and strengthening NATO, and setting up to be a major energy supplier to Europe in Russia's place. All for the cost of a fraction of our annual defense budget and zero American lives. It's a slam dunk.

fka ftc said:

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Ag with kids said:

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fka ftc said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Also conceptualize that this war isn't about Xi or Biden or Obama or 10% for the big guy or anything like that.

This is Putin being his ******* self wanting other people's **** and trying to get the band back together...

---

Putin is within his right at a head of a sovereign state to pursue the interests of his country and the citizens of said country.

I don't like the dude, he is certainly capable of evil, but if we go around fighting wars over arshole leaders wanting other peoples stuff in a quest for power, there is a DNC party right here at home we can go to war against.

Yet, let's ignore that and start a war against another nuclear power. Got it. Makes total sense

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WOW.

That's...WOW.

I got nothing. You have no concept of civilized society. Good day, sir and I hope you have a good Sunday...

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Exactly. Most find it hard to argue with the cold, hard truth of the situation.

I always have a good day. I;ve got family, health, security and such and I am tired of seeing that undermined by proxy wars protecting political interests and grifting, which is all Ukraine is.

Are the UK, France and Germany sending their political leaders and $100s of millions every other day to Ukraine for photo ops?

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No...that's not it at all.

Your view is about as far from the truth as it possibly could get...

But, I sure hope nobody decides to do anything to harm you or your family, since it's well within their rights to do so using your logic.

"I got nothing" was a real mask off moment.

Germany just committee $3 billion in additional aid a couple of weeks ago. France $3.5 billion and the UK $4.5 billion.

So yes, all three have committed hundreds of millions.

The argument is always the same form of…


"Hey guys I totally just have an issue with us sending money but let me also make a bunch of excuses for Russian aggression and completely whitewash and justify their invasion in any way I can".

Teslag said:

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Germany just committee $3 billion in additional aid a couple of weeks ago. France $3.5 billion and the UK $4.5 billion.

So yes, all three have committed hundreds of millions.

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And we are thousands of miles away and are nearing at least $80 billion. Seems legit.

Good Lord Graham can be a weird dude.

Lindsey Graham: "The Russians are dying... it's the best money we've ever spent." pic.twitter.com/Vn1THUjHmO

— COMBATE |🇵🇷 (@upholdreality) May 27, 2023

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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"I got nothing" was a real mask off moment.

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Ummm....

When you're so surprised that someone has such an insane view...sometimes you're left speechless. Sorry I didn't agree with him...

annie88 said:

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Good Lord Graham can be a weird dude.

Lindsey Graham: "The Russians are dying... it's the best money we've ever spent." pic.twitter.com/Vn1THUjHmO

— COMBATE |🇵🇷 (@upholdreality) May 27, 2023

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He's right. Stack their bodies high and wide.

Ag with kids said:

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fka ftc said:

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Exactly. Most find it hard to argue with the cold, hard truth of the situation.

I always have a good day. I;ve got family, health, security and such and I am tired of seeing that undermined by proxy wars protecting political interests and grifting, which is all Ukraine is.

Are the UK, France and Germany sending their political leaders and $100s of millions every other day to Ukraine for photo ops?

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No...that's not it at all.

Your view is about as far from the truth as it possibly could get...

But, I sure hope nobody decides to do anything to harm you or your family, since it's well within their rights to do so using your logic.

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According to Dems here at home it is within their right to do so.

Not going to apologize for wanting to spend our resources solving that problem vs proxy war against ultra powerful (or ultra weak?) Putin.

I have not said one single thing that is untruthful.

Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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Good Lord Graham can be a weird dude.

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He's right. Stack their bodies high and wide.

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Wow. And this is supposed to show how bad and murderous... Putin is?

Teslag said:

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The argument is always the same form of…


"Hey guys I totally just have an issue with us sending money but let me also make a bunch of excuses for Russian aggression and completely whitewash and justify their invasion in any way I can".

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Hey...they had every right to attack and overrun Ukraine.

Just like every other war in history, it was 100% justified.

Germany in 1939? Perfectly acceptable.

Pearl Harbor attack? Perfectly acceptable.

Soviet Union annexation of all the socialist republics? Perfectly acceptable.

Ad infinitum...

Remember:

Quote:

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... is within his right at a head of a sovereign state to pursue the interests of his country and the citizens of said country.

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fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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Good Lord Graham can be a weird dude.

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He's right. Stack their bodies high and wide.

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Wow. And this is supposed to show how bad and murderous... Putin is?

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War isn't pretty.

Poland wasn't sovereign and Hitler was within his rights as a sovereign leader to neutralize the Polish menace

/not at all Russian apologists

Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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The argument is always the same form of…


"Hey guys I totally just have an issue with us sending money but let me also make a bunch of excuses for Russian aggression and completely whitewash and justify their invasion in any way I can".

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Hey...they had every right to attack and overrun Ukraine.

Just like every other war in history, it was 100% justified.

Germany in 1939? Perfectly acceptable.

Pearl Harbor attack? Perfectly acceptable.

Soviet Union annexation of all the socialist republics? Perfectly acceptable.

Ad infinitum...

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You forgot 2 wars in Iraq, two in Afghanistan, invasions of Panama, countless operations in Africa, war with Spain, war with Mexico a couple of times, so on and so forth. Perfectly acceptable.

You simply go down the list picking good guys and bad guys as if there is no consequence to such revisionists history, where the victor writes the rules afterwards and also is in charge of writing the book of who was good and bad.

fka ftc said:

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Ag with kids said:

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fka ftc said:

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Exactly. Most find it hard to argue with the cold, hard truth of the situation.

I always have a good day. I;ve got family, health, security and such and I am tired of seeing that undermined by proxy wars protecting political interests and grifting, which is all Ukraine is.

Are the UK, France and Germany sending their political leaders and $100s of millions every other day to Ukraine for photo ops?

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No...that's not it at all.

Your view is about as far from the truth as it possibly could get...

But, I sure hope nobody decides to do anything to harm you or your family, since it's well within their rights to do so using your logic.

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According to Dems here at home it is within their right to do so.

Not going to apologize for wanting to spend our resources solving that problem vs proxy war against ultra powerful (or ultra weak?) Putin.

I have not said one single thing that is untruthful.

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Don't play the dem equation game when you've jumped fully on board the Michelle Obama "America is bad and evil too" train.

Why? The average Russian military has no choice to do this. Some of them may be vicious, but I'm certain it's not all of them.

If you want Russians dead, they should look at Putin.

Ag with kids said:

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Remember:

Quote:

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... is within his right at a head of a sovereign state to pursue the interests of his country and the citizens of said country.

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You think this is a dig, but you calling it out makes it clear exactly how weak your argument is.

So are we cool with summarizing your position as "the sovereign head of state has NO business NOR right / authority to pursue the bests interests of their country and its citizens"?