What just really irks the **** out of me is you bat **** crazy Americans who want to stick it to the Dems/Liberals so badly that you'd sacrifice an entire nation in another part of the world. That's not being "American"… As I said, that's being a Neville Chamberlain.

I can't stand Liberals and everything they're trying to change either but I am not so blinded by the idiot that is Trump (yes I voted for him) that I can't see this is a smart move. We let them have Ukraine then we'll be fighting over some other nation after that. Same goes with China, how would you handle them invading Taiwan and single handedly having the worlds market on microchips held hostage? Also a long standing Ally of ours, would you just let them have the island? Cause they see it as theirs and always have just as Putin sees Ukraine as being a piece of Mother Russia?

TH36 said:

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What's apparent during this whole conversation, NorTex…Is you posting videos of Ukrainians fighting with emojis that clearly show you either don't believe what's going on or you're annoyed that they're making propaganda showing their men/women fighting. They were a sovereign nation, you act as if everyone right down to the plumbers, accountants, mechanics, brick masons, etc etc etc…. are crooked. They're fighting for their country against an aggressor who had no right to invade no matter how you slice this pie in that twisted up head of yours. Why not just come out and say what you really think? I'm 99% sure you probably think the Hungarian prime minister is an example of a great leader, don't you? If so, everything makes sense then.

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Simmer down, TH36, your TDS is flaring up.

They're welcome to remain as a sovereign nation, as far as I'm concerned (I support a very rapid truce/peace negotiations too, as well as stopping our funding to prolong this forever war franchise). I think it's sad to infuriating that Biden provoked Russia into attacking them after using them as a piggy bank for corruption for so long. I don't want them in nato, and it's not real clear they even did either.

They're the victim here, to be clear, just as much if not more so than your ability to reason. Orban has said some things that are true, yes. He believes in controlling his country's border/immigration, for instance. I'm not surprised his very existence on the other side of the planet has you outraged as well.

Ukriane has a right to join whatever organization they wish without fear of foreign invasion. And it isn't provocation no matter how many times you say it.

If Mexico joined up with China and started staging weapons. I can assure you the United States would invade Mexico and put an end to it.

TH36 said:

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What just really irks the **** out of me is you bat **** crazy Americans who want to stick it to the Dems/Liberals so badly that you'd sacrifice an entire nation in another part of the world. That's not being "American"… As I said, that's being a Neville Chamberlain.

I can't stand Liberals and everything they're trying to change either but I am not so blinded by the idiot that is Trump (yes I voted for him) that I can't see this is a smart move. We let them have Ukraine then we'll be fighting over some other nation after that. Same goes with China, how would you handle them invading Taiwan and single handedly having the worlds market on microchips held hostage? Also a long standing Ally of ours, would you just let them have the island? Cause they see it as theirs and always have just as Putin sees Ukraine as being a piece of Mother Russia?

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Ukraine ultimately…doesn't matter for long. Mass emigration and depopulation were the biggest problems…before the Biden-Zelensky-Putin war that they faced.

An independent, free, hard working, prosperous Ukraine that people who have drank the forever-war koolaid/propaganda want to believe in…will never happen. Oh I am confident America (via Biden via CCP orders) will throw another half trillion or so at it, minimum, but it has no realistic prospect of happening. Period. End of story.

Gnash your teeth away at that for a while, but it's true. You might as well be with casting about a booming tourist season in Tripoli, or Damascus, or Baghdad, or Kabul this summer.

Double Diamond said:

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If Mexico joined up with China and started staging weapons. I can assure you the United States would invade Mexico and put an end to it.

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And we would be in the wrong.

Teslag said:

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Ukriane has a right to join whatever organization they wish without fear of foreign invasion. And it isn't provocation no matter how many times you say it.

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If countries have a right to take whatever action they want with no fear, we shouldn't have to help them out when they later become fearful, nor should we encourage/announce they should take actions ahead of time.

Freedom wins!

I've always said any criticism of how much and what we are giving Ukraine is valid. At the end of the day we are responsible for their freedom. However, I can't blame them or take issue with them begging stealing and borrowing whatever they need to ensure their survival. If we were in that position, I hope our leaders would do the same.

Teslag said:

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I've always said any criticism of how much and what we are giving Ukraine is valid. At the end of the day we are responsible for their freedom. However, I can't blame them or take issue with them begging stealing and borrowing whatever they need to ensure their survival. If we were in that position, I hope our leaders would do the same.

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I think you missed a "not" in there.

Teslag said:

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Ukriane has a right to join whatever organization they wish without fear of foreign invasion. And it isn't provocation no matter how many times you say it.

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Hmm....self-determination! Very good!

Would you extend that to Russian majority provinces in the Donbass? Ethnically-Russian ukrain citizens wanted independent republics, independent from ukrainians raping and torturing them...

The Debt said:

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Teslag said:

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Ukriane has a right to join whatever organization they wish without fear of foreign invasion. And it isn't provocation no matter how many times you say it.

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Hmm....self-determination! Very good!

Would you extend that to Russian majority provinces in the Donbass? Ethnically-Russian ukrain citizens wanted independent republics, independent from ukrainians raping and torturing them...

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Yes, but not sure how fair we get those voices with an impartial election. And how many areas are "ethnically russian" because the original residents were slaughtered and replaced with russians?

Basically, the Valley is overrun with illegals and 1st generation americans that may consider themselves more mexican than american. They don't get to just cede the area to Mexico because they want to.

That is very poor budgeting strategy.

150 billion is 1/40th the budget.

Budgets get big and bloated because every unnecessary project is as you put it "a pimple".

But you do 20 of these projects and now ur budget has increased by 50% and you're like "How did this happen?!?" Well it happened because everyone has their 100 billion dollar projects and it's just a little more "for a good cause". For just 200 billion we can hurt Russia! Wait no 300 billion!

Forget the fact that it's europe that needs to draw a line, not us. Forget that the coubtry is already in huge debt. Forget that these stockpiles that get drained are going to have to be replaced- and with modern equipment too! That will be more expensive to buy.

This is how households get mired in debt and it's how America got mired in debt.

Teslag said:

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Basically, the Valley is overrun with illegals and 1st generation americans that may consider themselves more mexican than american. They don't get to just cede the area to Mexico because they want to.

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Most folks in the Valley don't want to be politically aligned with Mexico...good try though.

Teslag said:

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The Debt said:

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Teslag said:

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Ukriane has a right to join whatever organization they wish without fear of foreign invasion. And it isn't provocation no matter how many times you say it.

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Hmm....self-determination! Very good!

Would you extend that to Russian majority provinces in the Donbass? Ethnically-Russian ukrain citizens wanted independent republics, independent from ukrainians raping and torturing them...

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Yes, but not sure how fair we get those voices with an impartial election. And how many areas are "ethnically russian" because the original residents were slaughtered and replaced with russians?

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No. The Donbass has been majority Russian since the Czars...we are talking nearly 200 years.

Teslag said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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chickencoupe16 said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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twk said:

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So, Russia is entitled to dictate whether it's neighbors join a defensive alliance. Got it.

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That's kind of how geopolitics works. Do you really believe that we would allow Mexico to join a hostile military alliance?

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Define allow. Would there be sanctions from us? Yes. Would we invade? No

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I agree that we probably would not invade. But we would absolutely use soft power channeled through NGOs and other such organizations to subvert and overthrow the government. The newly installed regime would just so happen to be more US friendly and abandon any plans contrary to our foreign policy goals.

For reference, see: Ukraine 2014

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And that's the point. Russia didn't use soft power. That would have been fine. They literally invaded a sovereign nation, shelled residential areas, and committed war crimes against its people.

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The US installed a puppet government that then persecuted eastern regions that protested against it. Those eastern regions were ethnically Russian and were being persecuted....and you thought Russia was going to just let that happen?

And on their border no less...

Amazing that yall ignore those facts.

Eliminate at least 90 percent of State Department employees/staff from foreign countries; decrease meddling/wars/death/starvation.

Quote:

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Department's workforce includes some 13,000 members of the Foreign Service, 11,000 Civil Service employees, and 45,000 locally employed staff at more than 270 diplomatic missions worldwide.

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Source: https://www.state.gov/about/

Ags4DaWin said:

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Teslag said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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chickencoupe16 said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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twk said:

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So, Russia is entitled to dictate whether it's neighbors join a defensive alliance. Got it.

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That's kind of how geopolitics works. Do you really believe that we would allow Mexico to join a hostile military alliance?

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Define allow. Would there be sanctions from us? Yes. Would we invade? No

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I agree that we probably would not invade. But we would absolutely use soft power channeled through NGOs and other such organizations to subvert and overthrow the government. The newly installed regime would just so happen to be more US friendly and abandon any plans contrary to our foreign policy goals.

For reference, see: Ukraine 2014

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And that's the point. Russia didn't use soft power. That would have been fine. They literally invaded a sovereign nation, shelled residential areas, and committed war crimes against its people.

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The US installed a puppet government that then persecuted eastern regions that protested against it. Those eastern regions were ethnically Russian and were being persecuted....and you thought Russia was going to just let that happen?

And on their border no less...

Amazing that yall ignore those facts.

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Is that why they tried to take Kiev and other areas that were not in the Donbas?

Teslag said:

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The Debt said:

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Teslag said:

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Ukriane has a right to join whatever organization they wish without fear of foreign invasion. And it isn't provocation no matter how many times you say it.

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Hmm....self-determination! Very good!

Would you extend that to Russian majority provinces in the Donbass? Ethnically-Russian ukrain citizens wanted independent republics, independent from ukrainians raping and torturing them...

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Yes, but not sure how fair we get those voices with an impartial election. And how many areas are "ethnically russian" because the original residents were slaughtered and replaced with russians?

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Yeah because we are sooo concerned with fair elections....I mean it's not like the CIA and our state department organized protests back in 2014 and then rigged an election to install American stooges in Ukraine's government.

Being concerned about making sure elections are fair and legit is something of a top priority for our foreign and domestic policy.

We have a VERY good track record there

Teslag said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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Teslag said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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chickencoupe16 said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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twk said:

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So, Russia is entitled to dictate whether it's neighbors join a defensive alliance. Got it.

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That's kind of how geopolitics works. Do you really believe that we would allow Mexico to join a hostile military alliance?

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Define allow. Would there be sanctions from us? Yes. Would we invade? No

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I agree that we probably would not invade. But we would absolutely use soft power channeled through NGOs and other such organizations to subvert and overthrow the government. The newly installed regime would just so happen to be more US friendly and abandon any plans contrary to our foreign policy goals.

For reference, see: Ukraine 2014

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And that's the point. Russia didn't use soft power. That would have been fine. They literally invaded a sovereign nation, shelled residential areas, and committed war crimes against its people.

---

The US installed a puppet government that then persecuted eastern regions that protested against it. Those eastern regions were ethnically Russian and were being persecuted....and you thought Russia was going to just let that happen?

And on their border no less...

Amazing that yall ignore those facts.

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Is that why they tried to take Kiev and other areas that were not in the Donbas?

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When you fight.....u fight to win.

To win a war your have to force the other country to the negotiating table.

Back when this started, Ukraine wanted to negotiate with Russia and offer protections to the abovementioned regions and peoples in exchange for cessation of hostilities.

Russia was on board with that.

Guess who scuttled those talks with assurances of military support?

Once raise talks broke down then Russia had to change strategies to try to force Ukraine to the table.

Don't get me wrong..... Russia's tactics of targeting civilians are deplorable....and their strategy of throwing endless bodies at bullets is despicable.

But that's the Russian war machine.

We knew it and we still chose to slap our dick on the table and dare Russia to try to stop us.

There is zero chance Russia would have allowed Ukraine to be independent and sovereign had they successfully taken Kiev. No one believes that for a second. Russia didn't invade to simply take the Donbass.

Teslag said:

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There is zero chance Russia would have allowed Ukraine to be independent and sovereign had they successfully taken Kiev. No one believes that for a second. Russia didn't invade to simply take the Donbass.

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Ahhhhh....just like how Russia was supposed to believe that the US was going to be content to just have Ukrainian lackeys in the government.....that the point of the 2014 coup was totally because w weren't going to try to twist Ukraine into joining NATO or putting missiles in Ukraine.

Ya know...like we tried to do with poland.

Again, I want clarity. You think Russia only invaded to take the Donbass and once they had that they'd just hand everything else back over?

The problem you have is that you totally ignore the USA's history here.

You think- we are benevolent. We don't start wars, we finish them and prevent them

We promote democracy across the globe.

We want fair elections.

Except when you go back and look at the history of America and our nation building and wars what you find is that we ate just as expansionist and violent as the enemies we claim to be fighting and do these things to gain strategic and world wide advantages, access to resources, access to corrupt politicians, etc.

Teslag said:

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Again, I want clarity. You think Russia only invaded to take the Donbass and once they had that they'd just hand everything else back over?

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Again I ask you- why did the US scuttle peace talks early? What was the motivation?

And we are wrong for those transgressions as well.

Ags4DaWin said:

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Teslag said:

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Again, I want clarity. You think Russia only invaded to take the Donbass and once they had that they'd just hand everything else back over?

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Again I ask you- why did the US scuttle peace talks early? What was the motivation?

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Answer mine and I'll answer yours.

Ags4DaWin said:

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That is very poor budgeting strategy.

150 billion is 1/40th the budget.

Budgets get big and bloated because every unnecessary project is as you put it "a pimple".

But you do 20 of these projects and now ur budget has increased by 50% and you're like "How did this happen?!?" Well it happened because everyone has their 100 billion dollar projects and it's just a little more "for a good cause". For just 200 billion we can hurt Russia! Wait no 300 billion!

Forget the fact that it's europe that needs to draw a line, not us. Forget that the coubtry is already in huge debt. Forget that these stockpiles that get drained are going to have to be replaced- and with modern equipment too! That will be more expensive to buy.

This is how households get mired in debt and it's how America got mired in debt.

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All of that is well and good, except that the statement was made that the war in Ukraine is currently causing inflation.

And my assessment was and is correct: the war in Ukraine is not causing inflation.

Could the spending on Ukraine balloon and actually have an impact? Yes It might in the future. But removing the Ukraine spending from the budget would have zero impact on inflation.

Further, flipping out about Ukraine spending but being silent about the remaining $1.17 trillion that is the deficit remaining after removal of the Ukraine spending reveals the objection isn't really about the budget, the debt, the deficit or inflation. And excuses like "Oh I oppose that too" but not starting or contributing to multiple thread's daily about the debt, the deficit, and spending illustrates the reality of that claim.

If you want to complain about the budget, debt, deficit or inflation that is certainly valid. But complaining about Ukraine spending as any kind of contributor to those things is simply not valid.

I pointed out that it absolutely IS a contributor.

Go through my posting history and you will notice that I friticize all of this kind of spending.

Ukraine war spending is the equivalent of being underwater on your house to the tune of 200k but still spending 30 grand on a taller privacy fence because u don't like ur neighbors.

Teslag said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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Teslag said:

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Again, I want clarity. You think Russia only invaded to take the Donbass and once they had that they'd just hand everything else back over?

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Again I ask you- why did the US scuttle peace talks early? What was the motivation?

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Answer mine and I'll answer yours.

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I actually asked my question first.

If you can't answer it, admit that you don't have a good argument and then I will answer yours.

Fair is fair.

My guess is that we wanted to use Ukraine as a proxy to inflict pain on a geopolitical rival.

Now answer mine.

Teslag said:

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My guess is that we wanted to use Ukraine as a proxy to inflict pain on a geopolitical rival.

Now answer mine.

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So that makes America the bad guy then. Our goal isn't to defend Ukraine or get to a strategically best outcome for them but to get to a best outcome for us. Which you say is hurting our "rival". Meanwhile it is their country that is destroyed and their citizens dying.

We will fight Russia to the very last Ukrainian

pagerman @ work said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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That is very poor budgeting strategy.

150 billion is 1/40th the budget.

Budgets get big and bloated because every unnecessary project is as you put it "a pimple".

But you do 20 of these projects and now ur budget has increased by 50% and you're like "How did this happen?!?" Well it happened because everyone has their 100 billion dollar projects and it's just a little more "for a good cause". For just 200 billion we can hurt Russia! Wait no 300 billion!

Forget the fact that it's europe that needs to draw a line, not us. Forget that the coubtry is already in huge debt. Forget that these stockpiles that get drained are going to have to be replaced- and with modern equipment too! That will be more expensive to buy.

This is how households get mired in debt and it's how America got mired in debt.

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All of that is well and good, except that the statement was made that the war in Ukraine is currently causing inflation.

And my assessment was and is correct: the war in Ukraine is not causing inflation.

Could the spending on Ukraine balloon and actually have an impact? Yes It might in the future. But removing the Ukraine spending from the budget would have zero impact on inflation.

Further, flipping out about Ukraine spending but being silent about the remaining $1.17 trillion that is the deficit remaining after removal of the Ukraine spending reveals the objection isn't really about the budget, the debt, the deficit or inflation. And excuses like "Oh I oppose that too" but not starting or contributing to multiple thread's daily about the debt, the deficit, and spending illustrates the reality of that claim.

If you want to complain about the budget, debt, deficit or inflation that is certainly valid. But complaining about Ukraine spending as any kind of contributor to those things is simply not valid.

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Once again don't be obtuse and ignore the reality that the Ukraine war/Biden's blowing up of the nordstream pipeline and subsequent energy crisis in Europe/globally contributed an outsize share to inflation, and also led to things like the 'inflation reduction act' and much of the sustained fiscal insanity. The economic impact has been and will continue to be ENORMOUS on everything from food to energy (which impacts transportation etc). The German government, for instance, spent something like $7500 per adult last year subsidizing electricity costs. $300 billion outstanding program. This is all DIRECTLY related to the Russia-Biden-Ukraine war.

The war has been a tool for the globalists to stoke inflation/spending all over the western hemisphere; again the objective isn't some childlike joy (as per our very own war cheerleader thread) of watching Russians and Ukrainians fight it out/testing weapons, it's WEF-style objectives to reduce western wealth/level rights globally and decrease the significant freedom/wealth advantage long term of places like…the United States. The great reset is real, and it's not just open borders they are pursuing by any means.

Is that all morally 'worse' than the 300K dead that Biden(*) has facilitated with 'his' foreign policy? No, but it is again a HUGE impact economically on the world, not just the value of the bullets/ammo/weaponry/aid/pensions we have paid to Ukrainians directly.

The Debt said:

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Teslag said:

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The Debt said:

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Teslag said:

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Ukriane has a right to join whatever organization they wish without fear of foreign invasion. And it isn't provocation no matter how many times you say it.

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Hmm....self-determination! Very good!

Would you extend that to Russian majority provinces in the Donbass? Ethnically-Russian ukrain citizens wanted independent republics, independent from ukrainians raping and torturing them...

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Yes, but not sure how fair we get those voices with an impartial election. And how many areas are "ethnically russian" because the original residents were slaughtered and replaced with russians?

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No. The Donbass has been majority Russian since the Czars...we are talking nearly 200 years.

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Or no it hasn't...

Quote:

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According to the Russian Imperial Census of 1897, Ukrainians ("Little Russians", in the official imperial language) accounted for 52.4% of the population of the region, whilst ethnic Russians constituted 28.7%

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