Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

612,313 Views | 9881 Replies | Last: 23 hrs ago by 1836er
Ag with kids
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fka ftc said:

Never said what Putin is doing is acceptable. I said he thinks he is justified and you have to at least acknowledge, if not respect it. Respect =/= adoration, support, condone, etc.

When you put down your I luv Z glasses, you can see these things.

And it you support sending bottomless pits of money to Ukraine, then you de facto are saying they are good and worthy.

Quote:

Putin is within his right at a head of a sovereign state to pursue the interests of his country and the citizens of said country.
So...it's "within his right to pursue the interests of his country" but TOTALLY not acceptable...

JFC...

And you people are so blinded by your hate for Zelensky that you think any disagreement or criticism of any position that doesn't explicitly **** on him that you think it means others "love him" (as opposed to the other poster who most definitely did not commit an ad hominem attack when he said others have his cock in their mouths)...
Ag with kids
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fka ftc said:

This thread has taught me once again who the order givers and order takers are. It's sad how many blindly follow whatever is told to them, regardless of what critical thinking may tell them and in the face of contradictory facts.

I get it, COVID proved there are a lot more order takers out there. Still surprising and sad none the less.

#salutethevaccines
It's teaching us, too...
Ag with kids
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nortex97 said:

Ag with kids said:

Teslag said:

I'm sure Ms Zakharova appreciates your white knighting for her comrade. Poor girl.
I like how she got the Nazi dig in there...

Quote:

Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman, Zakharova speaks some uncomfortable truths regarding western multinational corporations role in both supporting Nazi Germany in WW2, and today in Ukraine.

It's interesting, sure. Siemens, Ford, Lindbergh, and certain Raytheon component entities etc. did support the nazi's of course. Walter Duranty would have a tough time picking sides I guess in Ukraine today. Or maybe not.
Ok...and?

Reagan was a Democrat at that time...BURN HIM!!!!
J. Walter Weatherman
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fka ftc said:

This thread has taught me once again who the order givers and order takers are. It's sad how many blindly follow whatever is told to them, regardless of what critical thinking may tell them and in the face of contradictory facts.

I get it, COVID proved there are a lot more order takers out there. Still surprising and sad none the less.

#salutethevaccines


Agreed. Surprising and sad how many Russian order takers there are out there. Even some that say Ukraine isn't actually a sovereign country, that Putin is "well within his rights" to invade a neighbor and murder thousands of civilians, or that they "respect" the actions of a murdering dictator.

Not supporting the aid the US is providing doesn't need to also include any of the above points, but yet, for some reason for many on this thread it does. Very surprising and sad.
GAC06
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Teslag said:

I'm sure Ms Zakharova appreciates your white knighting for her comrade. Poor girl.


Remember, this is NOT the Kremlin talking points thread.

Oh, here's what this official Kremlin spokesperson said, btw.
nortex97
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Ag with kids said:

nortex97 said:

Ag with kids said:

Teslag said:

I'm sure Ms Zakharova appreciates your white knighting for her comrade. Poor girl.
I like how she got the Nazi dig in there...

Quote:

Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman, Zakharova speaks some uncomfortable truths regarding western multinational corporations role in both supporting Nazi Germany in WW2, and today in Ukraine.

It's interesting, sure. Siemens, Ford, Lindbergh, and certain Raytheon component entities etc. did support the nazi's of course. Walter Duranty would have a tough time picking sides I guess in Ukraine today. Or maybe not.
Ok...and?

Reagan was a Democrat at that time...BURN HIM!!!!
Ronald Wilson Reagan was about 30 when WW2 started. Like many of his generation, particularly those aspiring to a career in entertainment, he was a Democrat, as he so eloquently later explained. In his youthful ignorance he missed the linkage between the bigoted progressive left of President Wilson and the Dem party, and perhaps did believe in the 'narrative' as it was then established.

His later adult work is much more interesting to me, but some may disagree. Bedtime for Bonzo is still funny, I suppose.

Interesting connection you have attempted to make. Thank you. Keep an eye out for the gaslighting.
nortex97
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Hmmm…


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Zelensky is in hot water due to the catastrophe in Bakhmut, and organizing militarily senseless raids on the Russian border for the purpose of an "info war".

Zaluzhny despises Zelensky because of the disaster in Artyomovsk. Now the Ukrainian president is in serious danger, writes Serbian political scientist Drago Bosnic.

Relations between the political and military leadership of Ukraine could never be called harmonious. However, in recent months, the gap between these elites has widened so much that a military opposition has begun to form in Kyiv.



I have doubts about some of that stuff but I do think much of the military leadership/Zaluzhny detest Zelensky. It's always difficult though to extrapolate out how such a push/coup could play out/if anything would happen.

More analyses/feedback from the 1945 (site) article a few days ago about the pendulum swinging in the war: simplicus substack:

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For one of the first times in the West, the article even credits Russia with the tactically sound and strategically rational decision to relocate its forces last year, an action much lampooned and ridiculed at the time. Now, they lament that this wise shortening of the lines has in fact led to a much stronger Russian position.

The article does continue the trend of poor Western analysis by claiming Russia was 'caught with its pants down' in the Kharkov offensive. Not reallythose forces had long been overstretched and were merely a vestige of a previously foregone strategy which never meant to occupy that much of the country with a relatively tiny force. The only reason Russia hadn't withdrawn them earlier was because, if your adversary gives you no reason to do so, then why withdraw? Even if you're overstretched, it's logical to roost on the territory so long as the enemy allows, and provided that you're fastidious about taking care that your flanks aren't overrun with any abrupt encircling assaults.
And while there were many tactical level faults during the withdrawal, operationally there was no grand defeat or mass destruction of Russian forces. So it seems Russia did succeed in sticking to the above prescriptions.
Another of the article's many admissions:
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Many pundits in the West concluded that Russian troops and leaders were deeply flawed and incapable of improving, believing that Russia would remain incapable tactically for the duration of the war.
What many of these analysts failed to recognize, however, is that Russia has vastly more capacity to make war, both in terms of material and personnel, and therefore has the capacity to absorb enormous losses and still remain viable. Further, Russian history is replete with examples of starting out poorly in wars, suffering large casualties, and then recovering to turn the tide. Ukraine, on the other hand, has significantly fewer resources or troops and therefore has less room for error.
And another:
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Over the now 15 months of war, Ukraine has fought and lost four major urban battles against Russia, suffering progressively worse levels of casualties in each: Severodonetsk, Lysychansk, Soledar, and most recently Bakhmut.
When Russia was faced with city battles Kyiv, Kharkiv City, and Kherson City they chose to abandon each while establishing more defensible defensive positions elsewhere. Ukraine, on the other hand, chose to fight for their major cities. The results are telling.
Yes, the results are telling indeed. Ukraine has several times more casualties than Russia, with likely over 100k dead.
They even admit the mulish decisions to throw endless cannonfodder into defending cities may have grave consequences for the remainder of the war:
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Ukraine, on the other hand, chose to contest major cities and has now lost staggering numbers of troops but they also lost the city itself in the end. The decision of the Ukrainian general staff to defend Bakhmut until the end may have grave implications for the rest of the war.
These are astoundingly frank admissions from a previously mealymouthed West. But hold on to this thought, as the Bakhmut cannonfodder line will come back in another big way a little later.
The article finishes with a series of dour outlooks. First, that Russia is only growing stronger, while Ukraine weaker:
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Put simply, Ukraine doesn't have the personnel or industrial capacity to replace their lost men and equipment in comparison to the Russians. Moreover, Russia has been learning from its many tactical mistakes and evidence suggests they are improving tactically while simultaneously expanding their industrial capacity. Even bigger than the dearth of ammunition and equipment for Ukraine, however, is the number of trained and experienced personnel they've lost. Many of those skilled troops and leaders simply cannot be replaced in the span of mere months.
And the final hopeless kicker:
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I assess there is currently no likely path for Ukraine to achieve a military victory.Continuing to fight in that hope may perversely result in them losing even more territory.

The trend of war is shifting toward Moscow, regardless of how upset that may make many in the West. It is the observable reality. What Washington must do is avoid the temptation to "double-down" on supporting a losing proposition and do whatever we need to bring this conflict to a rapid conclusion, preserving our future security to the maximum extent. Ignoring these realities could set up Ukraine for even greater losses and could put our own security at unacceptable future risk.

Anyway, many links/articles at the piece, to Bloomberg, WSJ, NYP, yahoo news, and various other pieces that are not part of the officially endorsed narrative. If even half of the analyses of things like rebellious factions within UFA, artillery, losses (big deal), electronic warfare impacts, tactical changes/evolutions are true, let alone Nuland's latest disclosure of a July 'date' for the mythological 'offensive' then this whole thing might be closer to ending than I might have guessed.
Teslag
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I see that "mythological offensive" is the new talking point popping up on several posts recently.
fka ftc
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Teslag said:

I see that "mythological offensive" is the new talking point popping up on several posts recently.


I see again with clear skies that "its going to be a sunny day" is the main Kremlin talking point this morning.

"The absence of the word accountability is not the same as wanting no accountability" -unknown

"You can never go wrong by staying silent if there is nothing apt to say" -Walter Isaacson
PlaneCrashGuy
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When will the offensive start? Before or after the vaccine starts working?
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
nortex97
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"Russia Reshapes order in Africa" article in Newsweek is interesting contra the narrative that Russia is decimated by sanctions/the war in Ukraine. Fair use excerpt (long article):

Quote:

The Kremlin has referred to the conflict as a "special military operation" aimed at "demilitarizing" and "de-Nazifying" the neighboring country. Russian forces and allied private Wagner Group fighters remain locked in combat with Ukrainian troops on several axes across the nation, with no clear path to victory on either side.

The war has divided international opinion, but many non-aligned nations across the Global South, including in Africa, have maintained their neutrality. Russia has viewed this stance as further evidence of the shifting tides of the global order.

"The general well-balanced approach of the Global South in the context of Russia's confrontation with the West confirms once again that the transition to such a multipolar architecture is irreversible," Ozerov said.

"There is a growing awareness across Africa and Latin America, China, and India, in the Islamic world and even among an increasing number of Europeans and North Americans that the time of dictate and unipolar world-order is running out, as demonstrated again by the developments in Ukraine."

As such, he added, "Western narratives about an 'aggressive' and 'imperialistic' Russia have no effect outside its sphere of influence."

Still, he saw a battle of influence emerging as "the U.S. and EU leaders seek to impose Cold War logic, that of a new face-off between the Western bloc and Russia."

The Battle for Hearts and Minds in Africa


Washington has been increasingly outspoken in its criticisms of Russia's presence in Africa.

"Russia's war against Ukraine is hurting Africans," a U.S. State Department spokesperson told Newsweek. "Rising food and commodity prices are having disproportionate impacts on African countries."

The spokesperson said that "Russia's unprovoked war against Ukraine has exacerbated the increase of food and commodity pricesespecially wheat, fertilizer and cooking oiljust as African economies are striving to recover from the COVID-19 pandemic, deadly drought, and the growing impact of the climate crisis on agriculture and food systems."

They alleged that Russian President Vladimir Putin "has deliberately put millions at risk of food insecurity, while Russia's disinformation tries to undermine global support for Ukraine by blaming Ukraine for shortages."

"We are confident that our partners will see through Russia's cynical attempts at disinformation," the spokesperson added, "and focus on the lives lost and the misery Russia's needless war has inflicted both on the people of Ukraine and also on vulnerable people far beyond Ukraine due to the war's exacerbation of food insecurity."

Ozerov too was confident that African countries would resist Western pressure not to attend.

"This logic, nevertheless, can hardly impress anyone in Africa," Ozerov said. "Day by day, people there can see for themselves that Moscow's policy is devoid of bloc considerations, is not directed against third countries, and seeks to develop equal partnerships rather than confrontations. Everyone is free to choose their own partners."

Ozerov felt that this direction would be on full display at the upcoming Russia-Africa Summit set to be hosed in Saint Petersburg in July. He argued that the event would reflect emerging priorities in Africa, which he said include promoting local solutions and national interests, as well as breaking "free from the rigid constraints of globalism promoted by neo-liberalist ideologists."

But again, extended global conflicts are a goal, to many, as is starvation/food scarcity (not just the WEF/Soros types). The juxtaposition with for instance Polish farmers protesting the Ukrainians dumping grain in the EU via Poland is complicated to me, however, and I really don't understand how that plays out (though it's probably as simple as some oligarchs running grain distribution from Ukraine seeking to get revenue however they could).

I think the strengthened BRICS, or specifically Sino-Russian alliance is going to continue to be 'problematic' in many ways our 'geniuses' at the CIA/State Dep't. etc. have underestimated. All politics comes and goes in cycles, I guess, and the use of food/finished products/goods in trade/geopolitics/warfare is as old at least as written history itself.

But some will just focus on whether leopard tanks are available on youtube shooting at Russians. Sure, that's important.
Teslag
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

When will the offensive start? Before or after the vaccine starts working?


I wish you much success in your completely original star netting attempt
PlaneCrashGuy
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So you don't know?
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
GAC06
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Why would he?
PlaneCrashGuy
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He seemed pretty certain "mythological offensive" was a Russian talking point. But if he doesn't know I guess that was just hope.
I'm not sure if people genuinely believe someone is going to say, "Wow, if some people say I'm a moron for not believing this, it clearly must be true."

It's not much a persuasive argument. It really just sounds like a bunch of miniature dachshunds barking because the first one one barked when it thought it heard something.
Teslag
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So your contention is that it's not happening? I'll give you time to reach out to Ms Sakharova for your answer.
Ag with kids
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

When will the offensive start? Before or after the vaccine starts working?
I like to direct these questions to the father of the vaccine...Donald Trump.
fka ftc
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Ag with kids said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

When will the offensive start? Before or after the vaccine starts working?
I like to direct these questions to the father of the vaccine...Donald Trump.


Oh that's funny. Now we blame Trump, I mean esteemed Dr. Trump, for creating the vaccine? That was a delayed in release until AFTER the elections?

Makes total sense. Seems like that may end any credibility you may have had remaining.

Blaming Trump for vaccines is simply ignoring reality.
"The absence of the word accountability is not the same as wanting no accountability" -unknown

"You can never go wrong by staying silent if there is nothing apt to say" -Walter Isaacson
Ag with kids
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fka ftc said:

Ag with kids said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

When will the offensive start? Before or after the vaccine starts working?
I like to direct these questions to the father of the vaccine...Donald Trump.


Oh that's funny. Now we blame Trump, I mean esteemed Dr. Trump, for creating the vaccine? That was a delayed in release until AFTER the elections?

Makes total sense. Seems like that may end any credibility you may have had remaining.

Blaming Trump for vaccines is simply ignoring reality.
Wait...so he wasn't being truthful when he said this?

Quote:

"I hope everyone remembers when they're getting the COVID-19 (often referred to as the China Virus) Vaccine, that if I wasn't President, you wouldn't be getting that beautiful 'shot' for 5 years, at best, and probably wouldn't be getting it at all," read a statement from the former president. "I hope everyone remembers!"
The father of the vaccine speaks...

And I'm not blaming him. I'm saying questions about the vaccine, such as the one above "Before or after the vaccine starts working?" should be directed to him.
fka ftc
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Blame Doctor Trump, or blame Fauci and Pfizer and really to the folks who took away the choice to get the vaccine and made it mandatory?

Seems appropriate to blame Trump. He also fast tracked ventilators which killed people. Don't forget to blame him for that too.

This is Manhattan level understanding of Trump and Warp Speed. Congrats…?
"The absence of the word accountability is not the same as wanting no accountability" -unknown

"You can never go wrong by staying silent if there is nothing apt to say" -Walter Isaacson
Ag with kids
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fka ftc said:

Blame Doctor Trump, or blame Fauci and Pfizer and really to the folks who took away the choice to get the vaccine and made it mandatory?

Seems appropriate to blame Trump. He also fast tracked ventilators which killed people. Don't forget to blame him for that too.

This is Manhattan level understanding of Trump and Warp Speed. Congrats…?
You don't read so well.

I said I'm NOT blaming Trump. Stop putting words in my mouth.
fka ftc
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Ag with kids said:

fka ftc said:

Blame Doctor Trump, or blame Fauci and Pfizer and really to the folks who took away the choice to get the vaccine and made it mandatory?

Seems appropriate to blame Trump. He also fast tracked ventilators which killed people. Don't forget to blame him for that too.

This is Manhattan level understanding of Trump and Warp Speed. Congrats…?
You don't read so well.

I said I'm NOT blaming Trump. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Could be you don't write so well.

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3365034/replies/64937332
Quote:

I like to direct these questions to the father of the vaccine...Donald Trump.

So you are referring to him as the father of the vaccine but then saying you are not blaming him?

Trump does take credit for the speed and availability of the vaccine. Seems prudent he would have trusted the drug companies and scientists to do their jobs, though it appears we all misplaced our trust in scientists and doctors.

Why even refer to Trump in regards to the vaccine?
"The absence of the word accountability is not the same as wanting no accountability" -unknown

"You can never go wrong by staying silent if there is nothing apt to say" -Walter Isaacson
GAC06
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If Trump gets credit for rapidly and widely distributing the vaccine, why would he be absolved of responsibility for the efficacy or side effects
J. Walter Weatherman
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Quote:


Why even refer to Trump in regards to the vaccine?


Should probably start by asking planecrashguy what vaccines have to do with this thread in the first place.
Ag with kids
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fka ftc said:

Ag with kids said:

fka ftc said:

Blame Doctor Trump, or blame Fauci and Pfizer and really to the folks who took away the choice to get the vaccine and made it mandatory?

Seems appropriate to blame Trump. He also fast tracked ventilators which killed people. Don't forget to blame him for that too.

This is Manhattan level understanding of Trump and Warp Speed. Congrats…?
You don't read so well.

I said I'm NOT blaming Trump. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Could be you don't write so well.

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3365034/replies/64937332
Quote:

I like to direct these questions to the father of the vaccine...Donald Trump.

So you are referring to him as the father of the vaccine but then saying you are not blaming him?

Trump does take credit for the speed and availability of the vaccine. Seems prudent he would have trusted the drug companies and scientists to do their jobs, though it appears we all misplaced our trust in scientists and doctors.

Why even refer to Trump in regards to the vaccine?
How is that BLAME? He's said, HIMSELF, that he's responsible for the vaccine. I'm just acknowledging that.



As to the second bolded part, why in the **** did the other poster even bring it up? WTF does it have to do with this thread.

I'm just having some fun with it. You need to learn the lesson of Psycho...



Anyway...hope you're having a good Memorial Day.
nortex97
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I've no idea what really will happen in Turkey, but I have read that one of the consequence if their 're-election' of Erdogan might be that they withdraw from nato/kick US troops out. It sounds like a big mess, regardless.



I do think Erdogan's ability to claim victory stem somewhat from his partnership with Russia/the Ukraine grain deal etc.



Teslag
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I see you're still quoting more CCP mouthpieces for your talking points.


benchmark
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nortex97 said:

I've no idea what really will happen in Turkey, but I have read that one of the consequence if their 're-election' of Erdogan might be that they withdraw from nato/kick US troops out. It sounds like a big mess, regardless.

I do think Erdogan's ability to claim victory stem somewhat from his partnership with Russia/the Ukraine grain deal etc
Erdogan has always been a fickle NATO ally. Ditto their EU membership. 'European' drama queen. If not for the Bosporus, I'd say good riddance ... although it's a awesome place to visit. Keep an eye on Sweden's membership status to see if Turkey pivots.
nortex97
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LOL, wrong as usual, just hurt that someone read something you don't like, or rather that you did, after clicking yet again on this thread.



You might look up who she actually is, comrade.

Quick hilarity update/summary: I'm the one pointing out how the Xiden-Xi-Putin-Zelensky war is benefiting Xi and the CCP, while certain champions of the nobility of 'the cause' claim it is a great investment since it is 'stacking Russian bodies' high and wide yada yada. The counter/riposte has often been 'this has nothing to do with China, that's a conspiracy theory' and now you are citing…well that twitter poster said something nice about the CCP (actually quoted a CCP official.).

Talk about a funny/lame argument. At least you are consistent, though.
nortex97
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benchmark said:

nortex97 said:

I've no idea what really will happen in Turkey, but I have read that one of the consequence if their 're-election' of Erdogan might be that they withdraw from nato/kick US troops out. It sounds like a big mess, regardless.

I do think Erdogan's ability to claim victory stem somewhat from his partnership with Russia/the Ukraine grain deal etc
Erdogan has always been a fickle NATO ally. Ditto their EU membership. 'European' drama queen. If not for the Bosporus, I'd say good riddance ... although it's an awesome place to visit. Keep an eye on Sweden's membership status to see if Turkey pivots.
I don't disagree with any of that. It's a valuable piece of geography, and has been since Constantinople was built, though. There are many reasons they outlasted Rome for so long.

Scandinavian politics changing so fast as well make me wary of a movement toward a future broader conflict in Europe proper (Central Europe).
Dies Irae
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nortex97
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Quote:

According to Turkish sources, another Patriot battery was destroyed as a result of rocket attacks on Kyiv. Three Patriot batteries were sent to Ukraine, two of which were destroyed within a few weeks.
...
Thus, today there was probably a loss of at least another $2 billion, and the previous losses amounted to $5 billion.
Supposedly, the better part of a year's worth of Patriot production has been expended/used/destroyed in/about Kiev over the past 30 days. Many rumors of waves of UAV's as well as ballistic (Kinzhal) attacks.

Also, the UFA defense minister brilliantly showed a card signed by the Brits showing a picture of the unit insignia of the SU-24 squadron that was modified to carry the Storm Shadows, and that base in Western Ukraine, Starokostiantyniv air base, has been heavily hit with attacks over the past 48 hours.



Quote:

This even includes Defense Minister Reznikov being blamed by angry Ukrainian channels for inadvertently giving up the secret location of the Storm-Shadow-armed Su-24s when he recently posted a boasting message showing an Su-24 photo with a Storm Shadow attached under its wings.

The problem is, the message contained the emblem of the 7th tactical aviation wing stationed at Starokonstantinov in the Khmelnitsky region. So, did he give away the position of the secret British base or did Russia already know its location?

In what should be a surprise to no one, the Ukrainians are going to attempt to widen the war by bringing it to Moscow residents directly. Fair play I suppose given what Kiev residents (and others) are exposed to nightly, but still a greater threat to draw this into a wider conflict for those of us watching/reading from afar.


nortex97
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I wonder what our future fortified multi billion dollar city-embassy will look like around Kiev some day in around 10 years? Surely at least twice as large as this cozy little set of structures in Lebanon, right?


Quote:

One wonders if our mega-embassies overseas are more about securing the political status of the Deep State at home more than securing America's interests overseas. The latest example of State Department empire-building is found in Beirut, Lebanon, where the U.S. is completing construction of another $1 billion embassy, as reported in The Economist. It will cover 43 acres, and surrounded by high walls.
Quote:

The Economist notes: "Is that an embassy or a military base?" asked people on Twitter when photographs of the development were shared. Like the existing embassy, it sits in Akwar, a leafy suburb, far from the city centre. Security is plainly the dominant factor, as it now is across the world. . .

fka ftc
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No doubt the rebuilding efforts in Ukraine will be 10x + what we send in military aid.

Pro tip: Figure out how to eat off that meal ticket. Whether you provide contracts to the government or invest in those that do, get paid off the grift.
"The absence of the word accountability is not the same as wanting no accountability" -unknown

"You can never go wrong by staying silent if there is nothing apt to say" -Walter Isaacson
GAC06
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Looks like the 7th Tactical Aviation Brigade is the command for all Ukrainian Fencers. So not much of a gotcha. Plus it was already widely reported that they were the likely choice for Stormshadow/SCALP. I mentioned a couple days ago Russia must be scrambling to find Ukraine's Fencers. I guess we'll see if they really did.
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