HTownAg98 said:

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gotsand said:

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Yes. Reedy Creek Disney is allowed to set millage rates on the ad valorem taxes under their jurisdiction. That's in addition to County taxes they pay.

They have used these revenues to underwrite a lot of bonds. I'm guessing should the district lose taxing authority, the bond rating won't be looking too hot. As of 9/2020 it was about $750M in ad valorem bonds. Details on the District's taxing revenue is here (there is probably a more up to date filing): https://www.rcid.org/folder/2020/

Lots of people stand to get hurt here, which is why I think the District will prevail.

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It's more like $2B in total bond debt. If this special district is taken away, Disney is no longer obligated to pay back that debt (in other circles, this is known as a bailout); the citizens of the two counties are, and Disney gets to spread the debt over everyone in the county. I'm not sure the citizens in those counties would be thrilled seeing their tax bill rise to pay that bill.

This is being on the side that is winning on every other issue, bobbling it, and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

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I wouldn't bet against DeSantis

HTownAg98 said:

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gotsand said:

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Yes. Reedy Creek Disney is allowed to set millage rates on the ad valorem taxes under their jurisdiction. That's in addition to County taxes they pay.

They have used these revenues to underwrite a lot of bonds. I'm guessing should the district lose taxing authority, the bond rating won't be looking too hot. As of 9/2020 it was about $750M in ad valorem bonds. Details on the District's taxing revenue is here (there is probably a more up to date filing): https://www.rcid.org/folder/2020/

Lots of people stand to get hurt here, which is why I think the District will prevail.

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It's more like $2B in total bond debt. If this special district is taken away, Disney is no longer obligated to pay back that debt (in other circles, this is known as a bailout); the citizens of the two counties are, and Disney gets to spread the debt over everyone in the county. I'm not sure the citizens in those counties would be thrilled seeing their tax bill rise to pay that bill.

This is being on the side that is winning on every other issue, bobbling it, and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

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That's not how I would see it working. The bond payments are currently made using tax that Disney assesses and pays itself. From my understanding, if this passes, the counties would be the ones to assess and collect said taxes from Disney (based on the counties valuation of the property which one might assume could likley be higher than the valuation Disney uses). So the counties will simply collect the same tax dollars (if not more) that Disney was paying itself, and be able to use that income to pay off the debt the very same as Disney was. So I don't see how this would impact county residents at all. What am I missing?

Do all of the other Orlando resorts get the same taxing authority?

If they don't, then the counties are already set up to handle the logistics. Sure Disney is larger, but it's not like these are backwater counties...

captkirk said:

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HTownAg98 said:

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gotsand said:

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Yes. Reedy Creek Disney is allowed to set millage rates on the ad valorem taxes under their jurisdiction. That's in addition to County taxes they pay.

They have used these revenues to underwrite a lot of bonds. I'm guessing should the district lose taxing authority, the bond rating won't be looking too hot. As of 9/2020 it was about $750M in ad valorem bonds. Details on the District's taxing revenue is here (there is probably a more up to date filing): https://www.rcid.org/folder/2020/

Lots of people stand to get hurt here, which is why I think the District will prevail.

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It's more like $2B in total bond debt. If this special district is taken away, Disney is no longer obligated to pay back that debt (in other circles, this is known as a bailout); the citizens of the two counties are, and Disney gets to spread the debt over everyone in the county. I'm not sure the citizens in those counties would be thrilled seeing their tax bill rise to pay that bill.

This is being on the side that is winning on every other issue, bobbling it, and snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

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I wouldn't bet against DeSantis

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After he passed his dumb content moderation law that was later struck down, he's certainly not batting 1.000. I'd still vote for him, but this is a dumb political stunt. And I'm not sure this would survive a first amendment challenge either.

cecil77 said:

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Do all of the other Orlando resorts get the same taxing authority?

If they don't, then the counties are already set up to handle the logistics. Sure Disney is larger, but it's not like these are backwater counties...

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My understanding is that they don't.

Quote:

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I'd still vote for him

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captkirk said:

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Quote:

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I'd still vote for him

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I've made it known several times that I'd vote for Desantis.

aezmvp said:

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cecil77 said:

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Do all of the other Orlando resorts get the same taxing authority?

If they don't, then the counties are already set up to handle the logistics. Sure Disney is larger, but it's not like these are backwater counties...

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My understanding is that they don't.

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Then how are all of the other large parks/resorts serviced? Certainly they'd have to expand capacity.

I think you will enjoy that area of the country a lot more. Dollywood is great. Smoky mountains are beautiful. Gatlinburg has so much going on. Tennessee is beautiful.

All the tax revenue that went to the special authority would be transferred back to the county. The county would then have the resources to hire the staff from the special authority because it would dissolve.

It would take a few months for everything to shake out, but it's not a zero sum here. The bond issue is more interesting, but the devils are in how it's written.

I 100% disagree. The Left's take over of the board room is one of the most dangerous developments in this country especially over the last 10 years as it has accelerated greatly. You will not be able to fight all of those fights. But you can take some scalps, put some heads on pikes and make it painful. And if they can do it to Disney, they can do it to anyone. If you're a smaller company than Disney (150th largest company in the world, 50th in the US in 2021), well do you reallllly want to risk it?

That changes a lot of minds in a lot of board rooms. You combine that with making the Twitter board going through a public set of lawsuits based on liability. You take away the copyrights. All of a sudden there are real consequences for taking sides. Corporations will stop taking sides the liability and personal consequences will be too high.

aezmvp said:

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I 100% disagree. The Left's take over of the board room is one of the most dangerous developments in this country especially over the last 10 years as it has accelerated greatly. You will not be able to fight all of those fights. But you can take some scalps, put some heads on pikes and make it painful. And if they can do it to Disney, they can do it to anyone. If you're a smaller company than Disney (150th largest company in the world, 50th in the US in 2021), well do you reallllly want to risk it?

That changes a lot of minds in a lot of board rooms. You combine that with making the Twitter board going through a public set of lawsuits based on liability. You take away the copyrights. All of a sudden there are real consequences for taking sides. Corporations will stop taking sides the liability and personal consequences will be too high.

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I still think the actions of the Disney execs and their board are very ripe for a shareholder lawsuit in this case if the stock falls as is expected...particularly if travel to the Disney parks slows down. This is a major unforced error on Disney's part. They had no compelling business reason to get involved in this new law being contemplated in Florida. Nothing about that law affected Disney in the least, and they should have kept their mouths shut about it. Opening their mouths and getting involved is going to cost the company millions in additional tax payments when this district is dissolved and is likely to cause a drop in other Disney patronage that will cost the company money. Inaction on the part of the board in response to that error should make for an easy lawsuit.

AlaskanAg99 said:

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All the tax revenue that went to the special authority would be transferred back to the county. The county would then have the resources to hire the staff from the special authority because it would dissolve.

It would take a few months for everything to shake out, but it's not a zero sum here. The bond issue is more interesting, but the devils are in how it's written.

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As to the bonds, Fitch ratings has come out and said it is too early to tell what the action would mean for bondholders.

Bubblez said:

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Yay to fascism. If a business disagree with the government, it gets hammered by that government.

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tone deaf

Vote in the FL senate is done 23-16, ending Disney's 55 year old self governing status.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10735801/Florida-counties-end-footing-Disneys-1B-bond-debt-DeSantis-rips-special-status.html

No.

It's not ended. It still needs to pass the Florida House and then he signed by DeSantis.

The latter we can assume is a formality.

Keegan99 said:

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No.

It's not ended. It still needs to pass the Florida House and then he signed by DeSantis.

The latter we can assume is a formality.

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My bad. I thought the house had already passed it.

Disney's board is not sleeping well right now. I expect shareholder lawsuits within a few weeks.

They are serviced by the counties and contractors obeying county ordinances. They have some agreements in place to help host services on campus.

Disney got to skip that (and brand it) 7nder the RC Agreement in effect acting as the county. Now anything they keep in house will have to conform to county regulations. Just like Universal et al. The real kicker is now they will be under county building codes which they haven't been before. They only had to worry about ADA compliance in effect.

Now every renovation, expansion, new build, etc will be under a new set of codes they have NEVER had to deal with. I guarantee the exec suites at other parks in Orlando have run out of popcorn.

agracer said:

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American Hardwood said:

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I think you are slicing this issue a bit too thin linguistically.

When people read that tweet, they are generally going to believe it means that Disney is treated differently, with privileges, that most people don't get. This is demonstrably true. You can argue over the semantics of the wording, but the message is clear and that is what is important.

It isn't a lie because it conveys the truth whether or not more exact legal language could have been used.


Edit to add:
exempt

tr.v. exempted, exempting, exempts
1. To free from an obligation, duty, or liability to which others are subject.

If Disney is free from the obligation to submit construction plans to a public authority that others must, free from the obligation to pay certain taxes, etc. then I think they exactly meet the definition of exempt.

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Aren't you kind of doing the same thing here? I think so.

And Disney is not unique. I'll bet FSU and Florida Univ. are both treated the same by FL Law.

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FSU and Florida are not private companies. They are the government.

Disney is not the government.

But, you already know that.



How bout this. Everyone! that wants to be their own district can be! I want to tax my own .33 acre lot in Destin!

Give the Disney land to indian tribe and turn it into casino.

NOI contribution from their domestic park operations is a huge percentage of their total NOI. I would bet nearly 75% of that comes from Orlando.

Pretty massive misstep by Disney to piss off the host government of your single largest (and stranded) asset that probably provides more than half of your entire company's operating income. And DeSantis now has too much political capital invested into this to back off.

We might all be going to Musk World Orlando by 2023.

1/1/2021 - $184.52
4/1/2022 - $137.00
4/6/2022 - $131.92
4/20/2022 - $124.57

Strong Leadership.....

UTExan said:

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Vote in the FL senate is done 23-16, ending Disney's 55 year old self governing status.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10735801/Florida-counties-end-footing-Disneys-1B-bond-debt-DeSantis-rips-special-status.html

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Which will be challenged as soon as Desantis signs it and likely thrown out on first amendment grounds.

HTownAg98 said:

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UTExan said:

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Vote in the FL senate is done 23-16, ending Disney's 55 year old self governing status.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10735801/Florida-counties-end-footing-Disneys-1B-bond-debt-DeSantis-rips-special-status.html

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Which will be challenged as soon as Desantis signs it and likely thrown out on first amendment grounds.

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I'd bet against that happening.

Yea, Florida can remove a special district for whatever reason it likes, including speech. The state is under no obligation to continue to arrangement into perpetuity, no matter Disney's actions.

Right. There is no federal jurisdiction over a state's creation or removal of its own political subdivisions. And I assume Florida's constitution doesn't prohibit it from revoking special taxing districts. Unless Florida signed some sort of agreement with Disney guaranteeing their special taxing district, Disney needs to take this as a hard and expensive lesson on keeping their mouth shut on issues that aren't related to their business operations and focus on being a good partner with their new AHJ, Orange County. Maybe they can negotiate some sort of deal with the county to streamline permitting, tax abatements in exchange for investing in the public infrastructure around the park without taxpayer money, etc. Their best play is to try to capture the county government and donate heavily to the county politicians.

But it would seem the sweetheart deal is over.

I don't know what they were thinking. Of all the things you could do, why would you pick a fight with a red state Governor who sees blood in the water and had his eyes on being President in 2 years and also happens to host your most valuable and profitable asset that is impossible to relocate (or would take a decade to rebuild elsewhere even with unlimited money.)

They're about to learn what "paying your fair share" looks like.

Different state, but a decade or so ago CA revoked every single special tax reinvestment district. Their purpose was to keep taxes closer to their source to be better reinvested by those paying them.

Then the state ran short on cash so they simple revoked all the districts to haul the cash back to Sacramento. There was a ton of localized screaming over the move but the state had ZFG.

Keegan99 said:

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Yea, Florida can remove a special district for whatever reason it likes, including speech. The state is under no obligation to continue to arrangement into perpetuity, no matter Disney's actions.

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They can remove them as long as it isn't done in a retaliatory manner because of their speech, which is the case here. It's a blatant violation of Disney's speech that will never survive strict scrutiny. Normally when a governmental entity tries something like this, they keep the real reason under wraps so an issue like this doesn't come up. But Desantis and Florida Republicans have said the quiet part out loud, and it's on the record everywhere as to why they're doing it. It's a self own on their part that will be in the court filings when the lawsuit is filed.

If you don't like Disney's speech, let the marketplace of ideas and the shareholders handle it. They seem to be doing a good job of that as evidenced by Disney's falling stock price.

I do not believe you are correct, legally speaking.

Now what some court decides is not always directly coupled to legality.

HTownAg98 said:

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Keegan99 said:

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Yea, Florida can remove a special district for whatever reason it likes, including speech. The state is under no obligation to continue to arrangement into perpetuity, no matter Disney's actions.

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They can remove them as long as it isn't done in a retaliatory manner because of their speech, which is the case here. It's a blatant violation of Disney's speech that will never survive strict scrutiny. Normally when a governmental entity tries something like this, they keep the real reason under wraps so an issue like this doesn't come up. But Desantis and Florida Republicans have said the quiet part out loud, and it's on the record everywhere as to why they're doing it. It's a self own on their part that will be in the court filings when the lawsuit is filed.

If you don't like Disney's speech, let the marketplace of ideas and the shareholders handle it. They seem to be doing a good job of that as evidenced by Disney's falling stock price.

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The district is a creation of the state.

The state created it for purely discretionary reasons. The state can remove it for purely discretionary reasons.

The First Amendment does not shackle and prevent the state from modifying government entities of its own creation.

There is no First Amendment right for a corporate entity to be able to say whatever it likes and retain its special tax district status granted by the state.

cecil77 said:

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I do not believe you are correct, legally speaking.

Now what some court decides is not always directly coupled to legality.

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You have to understand, liberal lawyers are going to carry the lefts water.

Yep I think that's how it will play out. If Florida implemented a special Disney tax because of their opinion on a law, it would probably be a first amendment issue. By this is just treating Disney like every other person or entity in the state.

Also, the jurisdiction being revoked isn't Disney's and they aren't doing something directly to Disney Corporation like revoking their operating license or ability to do business in the state. It's a change to the state's own jurisdiction which Disney happens to be located in.