oh no said:

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a riskier spending spree for me. Rivian seems to be struggling, but it should be a fun truck if it doesn't break.

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Username will check out.

Teslag said:

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Not having a spare tire is fairly common across all types now, EV or ICE. Our BMW X3 was not equipped with a spare.


At some point I'm starting to wonder if any of you have regularly bought cars in the past 10 years or so.

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Yes and it's ****ing stupid. My wife hit some road debris in her Charger a few years ago and it bent the wheel just enough it wouldn't hold air so carrying the wheel somewhere to have the tire replaced wasn't an option. The stealership want $582 for one wheel that could be had (days away) on ebay for $250. I ended up buying a spare tire setup from discount tire to get it off the side of the road and drivable until the ebay wheel arrived. Ended up using it again on a Challenger later.

techno-ag said:

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oh no said:

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a riskier spending spree for me. Rivian seems to be struggling, but it should be a fun truck if it doesn't break.

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Username will check out.

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maybe. I hope not. I'm excited to get my new truck.

These drivers are just arrogant.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/pedestrians-almost-hit-by-tesla-on-bethesda-trail/3552670/?amp=1

Quote:

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Teddy Kavanagh was jogging Sunday night and jumped out of the way when he saw the electric car.

"I see it go past around over 20 mph and I'm shocked because I usually don't see cars. Obviously, it's a biking trail, so I'm not used to seeing cars on the trail, so it could have hit me easily," Kavanagh said.

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Look at me! I've got a fast golf cart!

nortex97 said:

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Apple giving up on their EV project of a decade plus. Free market wins again.

RIP Apple iCAR EV… https://t.co/KRFNY17a1O pic.twitter.com/2ZNiLHHCgD

— @amuse (@amuse) February 27, 2024

Ah well, I didn't think they could top the cyberturd anyway.

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They cancelled their TV plans too and pivoted. They're focused on high margin, little risk businesses like software and smartphones that unlock avenues to garner subscriptions/cuts on other people's hard work. TVs and automobile manufacturing is not an avenue towards major profits, services around the automobiles and TVs are. They can get the data/access they want by Trojan horsing their way into those products by making a streaming box and Apple CarPlay for software inept auto manufacturers/TV manufacturers and garner a larger business (more TVs/Cars) while not really competing in the hardware aspect.

If you wanna get rich, don't build cars, because it'll probably go bankrupt. They'll either buy Rivian if they want to pursue full integration or just focus on CarPlay.

Yep, the Daily Mail posted this. $100,000!!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/article-13132599/apple-car-cancel.html

Quote:

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The end of the iCar: Apple scraps its autonomous electric vehicle plans after a decade of work
Apple revealed to some employees on Tuesday it would cancel the 'Apple Car'
By NEIRIN GRAY DESAI CONSUMER REPORTER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

....Though its initial plans were to create a fully autonomous vehicle, it recently pared back plans. Executives were also reportedly concerned that at the target price of $100,000 profit margins would be precariously slim.

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WolfCall said:

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Yep, the Daily Mail posted this. $100,000!!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/article-13132599/apple-car-cancel.html

Quote:

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The end of the iCar: Apple scraps its autonomous electric vehicle plans after a decade of work
Apple revealed to some employees on Tuesday it would cancel the 'Apple Car'
By NEIRIN GRAY DESAI CONSUMER REPORTER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

....Though its initial plans were to create a fully autonomous vehicle, it recently pared back plans. Executives were also reportedly concerned that at the target price of $100,000 profit margins would be precariously slim.

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Why companies like Google and Apple tried to get into the car business is beyond me. Their boards should be fired for approving the waste of money..

Teslag said:

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Not having a spare tire is fairly common across all types now, EV or ICE. Our BMW X3 was not equipped with a spare.


At some point I'm starting to wonder if any of you have regularly bought cars in the past 10 years or so.

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My Rubicon has one. Don't think my Challenger does...the batteries are in the trunk where you usually find a spare tire.

WolfCall said:

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Yep, the Daily Mail posted this. $100,000!!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/article-13132599/apple-car-cancel.html

Quote:

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The end of the iCar: Apple scraps its autonomous electric vehicle plans after a decade of work
Apple revealed to some employees on Tuesday it would cancel the 'Apple Car'
By NEIRIN GRAY DESAI CONSUMER REPORTER FOR DAILYMAIL.COM

....Though its initial plans were to create a fully autonomous vehicle, it recently pared back plans. Executives were also reportedly concerned that at the target price of $100,000 profit margins would be precariously slim.

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Tires sold separately...and they don't work with normal axel lugs...

oh no said:

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techno-ag said:

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oh no said:

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a riskier spending spree for me. Rivian seems to be struggling, but it should be a fun truck if it doesn't break.

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Username will check out.

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maybe. I hope not. I'm excited to get my new truck.

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Those are slick. Report back once you get an impression of it

I know you are a troll when you say EVs are like golf carts. That is like saying Rosanne Barr is like Cindy Crawford. Yeah, they both are XX and bear children but it essentially ends here.

I am not sure why some are even debating trolls, he is not even here for a reasonable discussion.

Think the initial impetus of their entrance was actually an attempt at solving autonomous driving and Google, in some way, leapt out in front from a technical perspective and Tesla beat them on the scaling/data perspective and when they look at that marketplace today Apple is so freaking far behind and quite honestly doesn't have the technical/trailblazing pedigree to make a competent push to pas either attempt.

Right now it's a question of what's more crucial, the hardware (Waymo) or the software and data you feed it (Tesla). I think the hardware gives you a crutch that gets you further along, but the further you get the harder it gets and you need the data to get over the final hurdles.

You can narrow the scope of operation and hide the lack of decision making variety and make it look competent/use remote drives to really fool the rider, but it's not going to get you to a reasonable replacement of a large quantity of miles driven, which is the profit making portion of the systems.


It's part of the reason why I'm more bullish on EVs than most, because watching the last 8 years of progression in autonomy it appears that it's more a question of when (and it may be awhile) than if it's going to happen and in the event it does get solved EVs are a clear cut superior product than combustion.

Maintenance becomes a facilitation of outsized revenue/profits so repair costs matter less, the largest expense is likely to be regular maintenance/source of energy rather than damage. You can systematize the replacement/refurbishment/recycling of the batteries in the event one fails and you can optimize use patterns and vehicle type for specific use case. Going to dinner? Here's your 2-4 seater commuter. Going to Vegas? Here's a van, the seats recline, it has a 500 mile equivalent battery pack and wireless charging capability. Throw on a Netflix series and relax.

That's 15-20+ years away from it being a norm, I think, but I think it ultimately will be and ICE makes very little sense for a lot of cars in that environment. Hard to switch to fully autonomous society, but you can get a long way.

Even autonomy made no sense for them to get into it. This is company drift and it is never a good thing. Google has become a shell of its former self thanks to a number of things including projects like this.

To be clear I'm not saying it was smart. Was more saying that a pure car business is an absolute absurd business with intense competition that was never going to be a viable option for outsized profits, whereas autonomy does if you can win. I don't think either have the will/attention/competency to actually pull it off in a broadly marketable way, which is why I agree it was dumb.

It's why I roll my eyes when someone comes here to proclaim the demise of Rivian or Lucid as evidence of the lack of viability of EVs as they have no awareness that the only reason they are even remotely viable businesses is because they're pure EVs rather than a generic combustion vehicle manufacturer. The car business is ruthless and filled with risk. Lots of supply chain management, lots of cost, high priced product, and any downturn in sales can be fairly catastrophic. That business for Apple without an overlay is absolute insanity to get into.

Massive improvement at the low cost of convergence.

It’s here! Doing some testing and excited to share more info very soon. pic.twitter.com/20d0lBKyRQ

— Jim Farley (@jimfarley98) February 27, 2024

Quote:

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Newcomers aiming to carve a niche in the automotive sector were initially concentrated on scaling up the production of their electric vehicles. Now that companies like Rivian and Lucid have successfully achievied this milestone, the landscape has shifted, leaving these startups grappling with a decline in demand as the uptake of EVs progresses sluggishly.

Both American startups offered disappointing production outlooks last week, and neither believes they will be able to produce many more vehicles in 2024 than they did last year, causing their share prices to tumble. However, both suggested that the limiting factor wasn't their ability to produce electric vehicles, it was finding customers to buy them.

"What's important to recognize here is we are not production-constrained; it is sales and deliveries," said Lucid CEO, Peter Rawlinson, per the Wall Street Journal. Meanwhile, the backlog of orders that Rivian was counting on last year has shrunk considerably as interest rates have increased, leading to bigger monthly payments on its already expensive vehicles.
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Both companies produce high-end EVs at a time when affordability has become one of consumers' biggest concerns. Whereas the average EV cost $50,369 in January, Rivian's vehicles sold for an average of $88,000 last year, and Lucid's highest-performance sedan sells for more than $200,000.

While legacy automakers can lean on their profitable internal combustion engine vehicles to offset the expense of developing EVs, and the price cuts that increasingly become necessary to attract consumers, Rivian and Lucid can do little but eat into their cash reserves and rely on investors.

That has led to criticism from Elon Musk, the CEO of Tesla, for depending on investors like the Saudi Public Investment Fund and burning through cash. The maker of the Model S got an early start in the EV segment, which meant it was buoyed by a strong economy and customers with buying power. Now that its production apparatus is up and running, it can lean on its cheaper models and its healthy profit margins to cut prices.

Tesla is frequently criticized for initiating a price war in the EV segment, a strategy that both Lucid and Rivian have adopted. This casts doubt on the impartiality of Musk's perspective regarding the startups' situation. Nonetheless, Musk's viewpoint resonates with investor sentiment, which caused Lucid's share price to plummet by 19 percent last week, while Rivian's dropped by 38 percent, reaching its lowest-ever level of $10.06 per share.

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That's the first part of a fairly long piece, more at the link, as usual. Fair use excerpt, of course, as I am not permitted to paste the whole thing and don't feel like trying to make an argument out of it, to the EVangelists.

Good luck with your Rivian ownership experience oh no, I still see the politics, human, and environmental impact of these vehicles as horrible, outside of the driving experience/cost/risk of mfg bankruptcy etc. I would expect Rivian in one form or another will be able to raise more capital and persist for several years.

Current trajectory has them bankrupt in ~6 quarters. Maybe that trajectory will change, but so far it hasn’t. pic.twitter.com/tNNijQ3KwT

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) February 22, 2024

Quote:

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I still see the politics, human, and environmental impact of these vehicles as horrible, outside of the driving experience/cost/risk of mfg bankruptcy etc.

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Virtue signaling with a vehicle purchase...

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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I still see the politics, human, and environmental impact of these vehicles as horrible, outside of the driving experience/cost/risk of mfg bankruptcy etc.

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Virtue signaling with a vehicle purchase...

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I didn't buy one…and never will. I do again look with some disdain at EV owners/drivers, and by default assume they are Biden/GCF/Obama voters, or apathetic/ignorant of the politics behind the machines they operate. Not all are, it's just a default position, again, though I realize conditional statements like that are difficult for some to process.

There are several reasons this thread has gone on so long on the politics forum, and it's not just the "EVangelists" passionate hatred for the disdain many conservatives have toward these things, and the growing market rejection of them.

Quote:

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growing market rejection of them.

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As their sales continue to climb and expand market share....

Quote:

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There are several reasons this thread has gone on so long on the politics forum, and it's not just the "EVangelists" passionate hatred for the disdain many conservatives have toward these things, and the growing market rejection of them.

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Anyone else find the irony of this coming from someone who just went on an emotional rant regarding a vehicle purchase?

Looks devastating for Rivian.

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q4-2023-ev-sales/

Quote:

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A record 1.2 million U.S. vehicle buyers chose to go electric last year, according to estimates from Kelley Blue Book, a Cox Automotive company. More specifically, 1,189,051 new electric vehicles (EVs) were put into service as the slow shift to an electrified future continued unabated. In 2023, the EV share of the total U.S. vehicle market was 7.6%, according to Kelley Blue Book estimates. That is up from 5.9% in 2022.
EV sales in the fourth quarter set a record for both volume and share: 317,168 and 8.1%, respectively. And while records were set, the oft-reported slowdown is real. Q4 EV sales increased year over year by 40% a strong result by any measure, except when compared to the growth the industry saw in previous quarters. The market posted a 49% gain in Q3, and EV sales were up 52% year over year in Q4 2022. By volume, EV sales in Q4 were higher than in Q3 by roughly 5,000 units. The EV market in the U.S. is still growing, but not growing as fast.
The Cox Automotive Economic and Industry Insights team is calling 2024 "the Year of More" when it comes to EVs. More new product, more incentives, more inventory, more leasing, more infrastructure all the more will combine to push EV sales higher in the year ahead. The team forecasts EV share of the U.S. market in 2024 will reach 10%.

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Devastating.

"growing market rejection"

techno-ag said:

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Looks devastating for Rivian.

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The thing is they have no ICE vehicles that they can fall back on profitably. They have to play the price game vs. Tesla and others but nothing to subsidize it with. EV's a massive disappointment per even very fake state news CNN.

Quote:

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Tesla has been slashing prices. Ford just cut the price of its Mustang Mach-E, too, plus it cut back production of its electric pickup. And General Motors is thinking about bringing back plug-in hybrids, possibly taking a step back from GM's earlier commitment to shifting straight to pure EVs.

And now the EPA is considering slowing down requirements for automakers to sell more electric vehicles, dialing back what had been aggressive plans to move away from gas powered cars and SUVs.

To be clear: The American market for EVs is not collapsing. In the last quarter of 2023, EV sales were up 40% from the same quarter a year before, according to Cox Automotive. In fact, EV sales in the United States hit a record last year, topping 1 million for the first time.

But the EV market has nevertheless become a major disappointment. There is a troubling gap between expectations and reality.

Bloomberg New Energy Finance, for instance, had projected sales of 1.7 million plug-in vehicles in 2023, but only 1.46 million ultimately sold. (BNEF's figures include plug-in hybrids, but the large majority are fully electric vehicles.) The trend line isn't slanting upward as sharply as many had predicted so the industry is lowering future estimates.

Industry experts cite a number of reasons for this, including vehicle price, lack of charging capacity and confusing tax credit rules.

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Sorry your CCP-mobiles aren't winning in the market and will wind up topping out at around 10 percent, but I am glad that is true.

Quote:

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To be clear: The American market for EVs is not collapsing. In the last quarter of 2023, EV sales were up 40% from the same quarter a year before, according to Cox Automotive. In fact, EV sales in the United States hit a record last year, topping 1 million for the first time.

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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To be clear: The American market for EVs is not collapsing. In the last quarter of 2023, EV sales were up 40% from the same quarter a year before, according to Cox Automotive. In fact, EV sales in the United States hit a record last year, topping 1 million for the first time.

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And this includes both FHEV, MHEV and PHEV.
What's the market share breakdown by type?

That is the BEV growth number.

And yes the pace is slowing.

siap, Mercedes and Audi scrap EV only vehicle nonsense. If EVs are the future, with outstanding battery tech, chargers, etc,, just around the corner, why are they doing this?:

This is HUGE.

Mercedes is SCRAPPING their plans to only make electric vehicles.

They will continue to develop petrol and diesel engines for many more years.

And Audi is doing the same.

What's going on, why are they abandoning their previous EV plans?

— PeterSweden (@PeterSweden7) February 28, 2024

Probably because an EV only future is impractical as every EV owner and supporter on this thread has said many times.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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To be clear: The American market for EVs is not collapsing. In the last quarter of 2023, EV sales were up 40% from the same quarter a year before, according to Cox Automotive. In fact, EV sales in the United States hit a record last year, topping 1 million for the first time.

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The money quote, in case you missed it:

Quote:

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But the EV market has nevertheless become a major disappointment. There is a troubling gap between expectations and reality.

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News out today that Apple is scraps EV development. Apparently they had 2,000 engineers working on it.

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3281480/replies/67045551

New Roadster supposedly will go 0-60 in a second or less.

If true (and it's prolly just hype), these things will be a serious danger on the road.

https://www.motor1.com/news/710402/elon-musk-talks-new-tesla-roadster/amp/

techno-ag said:

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New Roadster supposedly will go 0-60 in a second or less.

If true (and it's prolly just hype), these things will be a serious danger on the road.

https://www.motor1.com/news/710402/elon-musk-talks-new-tesla-roadster/amp/

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This is the kind of thinking that got us 55mph speed limits...

Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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Another reason not to buy a Tesla: they're vandal magnets. Prolly libs who hate Elon, taking it out on the product.

https://www.thecooldown.com/green-home/tesla-model-y-vandalism-footage-tiktok/

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Absolutely Devastating. The only cars that are vandalized are Tesla's.

It could be because thieves can't steal them easily as they are among the least stolen vehicles. Something about cameras that can record your face and the inability to Hotwire a car make them resistant to theft.

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https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-police-search-for-arsonist-who-lit-2-teslas-on-fire-in-soma-saturday/