nortex97 said:

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I always thought a smaller electric gremlin with annoying safety features removed woulda been a great vehicle to die in.

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So something similar to the Ford Pinto.

That golf cart is laughable.

aggieforester05 said:

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nortex97 said:

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I always thought a smaller electric gremlin with annoying safety features removed woulda been a great vehicle to die in.

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Like driving a golf cart on the highway, with a cage sufficient to keep you from escaping but not protect you from anything. I can totally see the appeal.

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Something like this?

bobbranco said:

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That golf cart is laughable.

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When I said beautiful, i was referring to the model woman, not the model car.

I figured. I'm not that old and slow.

akm91 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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nortex97 said:

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I always thought a smaller electric gremlin with annoying safety features removed woulda been a great vehicle to die in.

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Like driving a golf cart on the highway, with a cage sufficient to keep you from escaping but not protect you from anything. I can totally see the appeal.

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Something like this?

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I'll take my chances on a motorcycle over either.

CNN: Teslas crash more.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/18/business/why-do-people-keep-crashing-teslas/index.html

Devastating.

Quote:

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Hertz recently announced it was selling 20,000 electric cars out of its fleet, and replacing them with gasoline vehicles. One reason the company gave was that drivers kept crashing the cars.
…
Crashes are even more frequent in households with both a gas and an electric model, indicating that regularly switching from one to another exacerbates the issues. And the fact that crash frequency lessens with time also suggests that unfamiliarity has something to do with it, said Xiaohui Lu, head of EV research at LexisNexis Risk Solutions.
…
Besides their added speed, EVs are also heavier than gas-powered vehicles because of their large, dense battery packs. That also leads to more damage in the vehicles the EV hits resulting in higher insurance claims.

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Ford Prepares To Cut F-150 Lightning Electric Truck Production https://t.co/tbbceyiVz3

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) January 19, 2024

Ford’s cutting production of its electric F-150 Lightning pickup. Rivian’s lost ONE-THIRD of its market value so far this year. The EV devolution. https://t.co/fDXumzxK36

— Dagen McDowell (@dagenmcdowell) January 19, 2024

GeorgiAg said:

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Ford Prepares To Cut F-150 Lightning Electric Truck Production https://t.co/tbbceyiVz3

— zerohedge (@zerohedge) January 19, 2024

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Quote:

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EV demand next year could be lower than expectations," Lee Chang-sil, chief financial officer at South Korean battery maker LG Energy Solution, said several months ago.

Also, 3,900 auto dealers wrote a letter to President Biden, warning:

"Electric vehicles are stacking up on our lots which is our best indicator of customer demand in the marketplace."

Plus, high auto loan rates and vehicle prices add to affordability concerns. Folks don't want $1,000 payments for vehicles that come with "range anxiety."

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President Biden he's our man, if anybody can screw up America more than Obama, President Biden can.

Yay. Go Team.

Thanks scared to heck American voters.

SIXT rental car company ditches Teslas in favor of Chrysler products.

https://nypost.com/2024/01/19/business/tesla-ditched-by-sixt-in-favor-of-250k-stellantis-cars/amp/

Quote:

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Car rental giant SIXT announced plans to buy as many as 250,000 Stellantis electric vehicles - a month after informing customers that it was dropping Teslas from its EV fleet.

SIXT said this week that it came to a "multi-billion euro agreement" with Stellantis, with plans to add an array of the automaker's cars - including Jeeps, Chryslers, Dodges, Alfa Romeos and Maseratis, among others - to its rental fleet across Europe and North America by 2026.

The Stellantis vehicles will be a mix of combustion-engine, plug-in hybrid and battery-electric, according to a press release on the agreement.

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I get why they're doing it. A bigger more established company with a variety of vehicles is probably a better bet for a rental company. Can't help but think they'll regret going electric though.

techno-ag said:

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CNN: Teslas crash more.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/18/business/why-do-people-keep-crashing-teslas/index.html

Devastating.

Quote:

---

Hertz recently announced it was selling 20,000 electric cars out of its fleet, and replacing them with gasoline vehicles. One reason the company gave was that drivers kept crashing the cars.
…
Crashes are even more frequent in households with both a gas and an electric model, indicating that regularly switching from one to another exacerbates the issues. And the fact that crash frequency lessens with time also suggests that unfamiliarity has something to do with it, said Xiaohui Lu, head of EV research at LexisNexis Risk Solutions.
…
Besides their added speed, EVs are also heavier than gas-powered vehicles because of their large, dense battery packs. That also leads to more damage in the vehicles the EV hits resulting in higher insurance claims.

---

---

So EV's accelerate faster in terms of speed increase because of a more powerful engine but then accelerate slower in terms of speed decrease because of a larger mass due to battery weight which increases the force needed to slow the car down.

What a great engineering combo. Who could have seen how this would lead to more accidents?!

texagbeliever said:

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techno-ag said:

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CNN: Teslas crash more.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/18/business/why-do-people-keep-crashing-teslas/index.html

Devastating.

Quote:

---

Hertz recently announced it was selling 20,000 electric cars out of its fleet, and replacing them with gasoline vehicles. One reason the company gave was that drivers kept crashing the cars.
…
Crashes are even more frequent in households with both a gas and an electric model, indicating that regularly switching from one to another exacerbates the issues. And the fact that crash frequency lessens with time also suggests that unfamiliarity has something to do with it, said Xiaohui Lu, head of EV research at LexisNexis Risk Solutions.
…
Besides their added speed, EVs are also heavier than gas-powered vehicles because of their large, dense battery packs. That also leads to more damage in the vehicles the EV hits resulting in higher insurance claims.

---

---

So EV's accelerate faster in terms of speed increase because of a more powerful engine but then accelerate slower in terms of speed decrease because of a larger mass due to battery weight which increases the force needed to slow the car down.

What a great engineering combo. Who could have seen how this would lead to more accidents?!

---

They really don't weight more than the average vehicle sold in the US, just more than the average car. The model 3 weighs 4000 and the model Y weighs up to 4,400 lbs. See the chart below for the fleet average including trucks and SUVs which in many cases weight a lot more than the most popular Teslas. I don't see why they are saying there is a design issue on slowing when the average vehicle is of similar weight.

I will agree the acceleration can be a problem in people driving it for the first time or in the early period of ownership until people learn the nuances of the acceleration. There is a reason why you can buy a bunch of wrecked sports cars with less than 1,000 miles on them.

PS. The truck is 6,800 which is clearly above most vehicles and will take longer to stop.

Braking Distance 60-0 mph

Model 3: 114 ft
Camry: 122 ft

When an article says "the difference begins to disappear after one year" you can assume that it's mostly not a design issue with the vehicle, but rather operator error, causing the difference in incidences. It would be like having a bunch of people switch from a sedan to an SUV or an SUV to a sportscar and saying that the reason they crash more is that those vehicles are inherently more prone to crashes rather than the fact the drivers are unfamiliar with the speed characteristics and size of the vehicles.

It's why Hertz was bold and mistaken in buying a bunch of electric vehicles, because there are differences in how they're driven and the use requirements to operate them. They're tradeoffs. A rental car company where vehicle crashes are already higher than the general driver adding that variable is adding unnecessary risk so that they can be the ones to educate drivers in how to drive an EV.

hph6203 said:

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Braking Distance 60-0 mph

Model 3: 114 ft
Camry: 122 ft

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114 ft you say. Try 152 feet. And Tesla claims 133 ft. So you still are wrong even by Tesla claims.

Tesla 152 feet 60-0mph 7 feet longer than a F150 Truck

Kansas Kid said:

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texagbeliever said:

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techno-ag said:

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CNN: Teslas crash more.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/18/business/why-do-people-keep-crashing-teslas/index.html

Devastating.

Quote:

---

Hertz recently announced it was selling 20,000 electric cars out of its fleet, and replacing them with gasoline vehicles. One reason the company gave was that drivers kept crashing the cars.
…
Crashes are even more frequent in households with both a gas and an electric model, indicating that regularly switching from one to another exacerbates the issues. And the fact that crash frequency lessens with time also suggests that unfamiliarity has something to do with it, said Xiaohui Lu, head of EV research at LexisNexis Risk Solutions.
…
Besides their added speed, EVs are also heavier than gas-powered vehicles because of their large, dense battery packs. That also leads to more damage in the vehicles the EV hits resulting in higher insurance claims.

---

---

So EV's accelerate faster in terms of speed increase because of a more powerful engine but then accelerate slower in terms of speed decrease because of a larger mass due to battery weight which increases the force needed to slow the car down.

What a great engineering combo. Who could have seen how this would lead to more accidents?!

---

They really don't weight more than the average vehicle sold in the US, just more than the average car. The model 3 weighs 4000 and the model Y weighs up to 4,400 lbs. See the chart below for the fleet average including trucks and SUVs which in many cases weight a lot more than the most popular Teslas. I don't see why they are saying there is a design issue on slowing when the average vehicle is of similar weight.

I will agree the acceleration can be a problem in people driving it for the first time or in the early period of ownership until people learn the nuances of the acceleration. There is a reason why you can buy a bunch of wrecked sports cars with less than 1,000 miles on them.

PS. The truck is 6,800 which is clearly above most vehicles and will take longer to stop.

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Someone who gets into a F150 realizes they are in a bigger truck and likely has a better appreciation for slower breaking ability.

texagbeliever said:

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hph6203 said:

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Braking Distance 60-0 mph

Model 3: 114 ft
Camry: 122 ft

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114 ft you say. Try 152 feet. And Tesla claims 133 ft. So you still are wrong even by Tesla claims.

Tesla 152 feet 60-0mph 7 feet longer than a F150 Truck

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Looking at dates on articles is one of the first rules of the internet. My link is for the 2024 Model 3, yours is for the 2018 Model 3.

Nine days later, Consumer Reports has updated its review to give the Model 3 its recommendation. What changed? Over the weekend, Tesla pushed out an over-the-air software update, one that the carmaker says tweaked the calibration of the vehicle's antilock braking algorithm. That cut the vehicle's 60 mph stopping distance a whole 19 feet, to 133, about average for a luxury compact sedan.

texagbeliever said:

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techno-ag said:

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CNN: Teslas crash more.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/18/business/why-do-people-keep-crashing-teslas/index.html

Devastating.

Quote:

---

Hertz recently announced it was selling 20,000 electric cars out of its fleet, and replacing them with gasoline vehicles. One reason the company gave was that drivers kept crashing the cars.
…
Crashes are even more frequent in households with both a gas and an electric model, indicating that regularly switching from one to another exacerbates the issues. And the fact that crash frequency lessens with time also suggests that unfamiliarity has something to do with it, said Xiaohui Lu, head of EV research at LexisNexis Risk Solutions.
…
Besides their added speed, EVs are also heavier than gas-powered vehicles because of their large, dense battery packs. That also leads to more damage in the vehicles the EV hits resulting in higher insurance claims.

---

---

So EV's accelerate faster in terms of speed increase because of a more powerful engine but then accelerate slower in terms of speed decrease because of a larger mass due to battery weight which increases the force needed to slow the car down.

What a great engineering combo. Who could have seen how this would lead to more accidents?!

---

You also might want to highlight from your CNN article the following comment. This is unusual for CNN journalists in that they at least highlighted comments that counter their claim that EVs are in more accidents. So the question is who do you believe, LexisNexis data or insurance data when it comes to accident rates.

I don't think there is any disagreement that EVs cost more to repair when they are in an accident.
"The Highway Loss Data Institute, a US-based organization funded by the insurance industry, has not found higher crash rates for Tesla vehicles or other EVs more broadly based on overall insurance claims. Teslas do tend to have higher claim costs, though, according to the HLDI."

texagbeliever said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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texagbeliever said:

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techno-ag said:

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CNN: Teslas crash more.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/18/business/why-do-people-keep-crashing-teslas/index.html

Devastating.

Quote:

---

Hertz recently announced it was selling 20,000 electric cars out of its fleet, and replacing them with gasoline vehicles. One reason the company gave was that drivers kept crashing the cars.
…
Crashes are even more frequent in households with both a gas and an electric model, indicating that regularly switching from one to another exacerbates the issues. And the fact that crash frequency lessens with time also suggests that unfamiliarity has something to do with it, said Xiaohui Lu, head of EV research at LexisNexis Risk Solutions.
…
Besides their added speed, EVs are also heavier than gas-powered vehicles because of their large, dense battery packs. That also leads to more damage in the vehicles the EV hits resulting in higher insurance claims.

---

---

So EV's accelerate faster in terms of speed increase because of a more powerful engine but then accelerate slower in terms of speed decrease because of a larger mass due to battery weight which increases the force needed to slow the car down.

What a great engineering combo. Who could have seen how this would lead to more accidents?!

---

They really don't weight more than the average vehicle sold in the US, just more than the average car. The model 3 weighs 4000 and the model Y weighs up to 4,400 lbs. See the chart below for the fleet average including trucks and SUVs which in many cases weight a lot more than the most popular Teslas. I don't see why they are saying there is a design issue on slowing when the average vehicle is of similar weight.

I will agree the acceleration can be a problem in people driving it for the first time or in the early period of ownership until people learn the nuances of the acceleration. There is a reason why you can buy a bunch of wrecked sports cars with less than 1,000 miles on them.

PS. The truck is 6,800 which is clearly above most vehicles and will take longer to stop.

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Someone who gets into a F150 realizes they are in a bigger truck and likely has a better appreciation for slower breaking ability.

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Anyone that gets in an unfamiliar vehicle and doesn't test the acceleration, braking, handling and other characteristics right away is not what I would call a good driver. I will say that with rentals, a lot of people don't do that and that is part of why rentals cars of all types have a materially higher accident rate.

I like the idea of an electric vehicle but a truck? Driving to the house on the coast (325 miles) fully loaded down, towing a boat or jet skiis?

No thanks.

GeorgiAg said:

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I like the idea of an electric vehicle but a truck? Driving to the house on the coast (325 miles) fully loaded down, towing a boat or jet skiis?

No thanks.

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Agreed. Towing doesn't work with EVs. To add to it, most chargers would require you to disconnect each time you charge.

"The cybertruck has the worst range and the worst charging speed of the bunch"
How did @tesla get this so wrong? https://t.co/obJ4CgtNrt pic.twitter.com/HZ7WtVDwa0

— Above the Best ⚡️🚁🛩️ (@thedooberhead) January 19, 2024

Well, at least it looks cool to some people....

Bubblez said:

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"The cybertruck has the worst range and the worst charging speed of the bunch"
How did @tesla get this so wrong? https://t.co/obJ4CgtNrt pic.twitter.com/HZ7WtVDwa0

— Above the Best ⚡️🚁🛩️ (@thedooberhead) January 19, 2024

Well, at least it looks cool to some people....

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How anyone thinks that thing looks good is beyond me.

Now the Rivian is a head turning truck for sure.

There's one that lives in my neighborhood, or an adjacent one. I've seen it several times.

Believe it or not, it looks worse in person.

They didnt even make it handprint-proof.

Ford Cuts Electric F-150 Plans in Ominous Sign for EV Market

• Automaker halves expected 2024 output of the plug-in model
• EV sales growth in US seen slowing significantly next year

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-11/ford-slashes-electric-f-150-plans-in-ominous-sign-for-ev-market

Bubblez said:

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"The cybertruck has the worst range and the worst charging speed of the bunch"
How did @tesla get this so wrong? https://t.co/obJ4CgtNrt pic.twitter.com/HZ7WtVDwa0

— Above the Best ⚡️🚁🛩️ (@thedooberhead) January 19, 2024

Well, at least it looks cool to some people....

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Novel battery manufacturing techniques/construction that has a more conservative charging curve. These are things that can be updated after the fact through a software update. What it looks like today is not indicative of what it looks like long term.

Interesting details behind the news from the last week or so.....

Several people asking about Tesla percentage.

72.7% listings are Teslas
(14,481 of the 19,909 listings)

— Car Dealership Guy (@GuyDealership) January 19, 2024

Tesla has broken ground on its massive $3.6 billion expansion of the Giga Nevada facility.

It will bring 4 million square feet of manufacturing space and will help accelerate Semi and 4680 battery cell production:https://t.co/OqJ6tohvYk

— TESLARATI (@Teslarati) January 19, 2024

Why are Teslas’ batteries dying in the cold?

Freezing temperatures across central US have cut EV's range & left drivers facing long waits at charging stations.@TheLastRefuge2 https://t.co/l3yng0KDS4

— Ben Tallmadge (@BenTallmadge01) January 19, 2024

Newsflash: Chemical reactions slow down as the temperature decreases. Anyone that has had a lead acid battery die on them on the first cold day in the fall/winter should know this

GeorgiAg said:

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I like the idea of an electric vehicle but a truck? Driving to the house on the coast (325 miles) fully loaded down, towing a boat or jet skiis?

No thanks.

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I'm the opposite, I like the idea of an EV truck for my uses, but I primarily tow within a 25 mile radius of my home and it's usually small to medium flatbeds. I like that it's silent for escaping the house without waking anyone. No warm up and I can rip on it without mechanical consequences. Great daily driver, but grossly overpriced so far.

I hate the the idea of an EV performance oriented car. There's nothing wrong with options for that, but regulating entire segments of performance cars out of existence to be replaced by EVs is complete horse***** I want a V8, manual transmission, and RWD or AWD. A performance car with no engine and no transmission is boring to me regardless of acceleration.

Your post has caused a thought.
What if, rather than CO2, it is actually the NOISE of "performance" cars
that is the root cause for the crusade to make everyone go EV?
There is your fun theory for the nonce.

All great for short truck trips. But loaded with a trailer, pets, kids etc and having to stop and unhitch the trailer to charge a truck?

That sounds like a scene out of a National Lampoon Vacation movie.

Then don't buy it if you are doing long towing trips. Seems simple. Of course I'm also the guy who doesn't understand why the F-150 is the most popular vehicle in the U.S. How many of those people actually need a truck? If I were towing long distances often I'd jump straight to a diesel F-250.