The way this senile POS is moving, you likely won't ever buy another vehicle! It's going to be all EV's and the power grid won't be able to support it! Time to start buying horse and buggies 
I will never buy an electric powered vehicle.
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Last: 12 days ago by techno-ag
That won't help unless the grocery store is across the street from the RR. Which mine actually is.LRHF said:
The way this senile POS is moving, you likely won't ever buy another vehicle! It's going to be all EV's and the power grid won't be able to support it! Time to start buying horse and buggies
My granddad started out as a muleskinner for the RR at age 14.
EVs barely put a dent in global CO2 emission.
The only reason there is a push is because it's a way to provide social proof.
Plug in hybrids are a much better solution.
At the current adoption rate, energy stored in EVs will soon surpass the entire annual output of the US power grid.
The current power grid infrastructure will not be able to meet the electrical charging demands. This is a huge problem politicians are ignoring. The only people really tuned into this are the power providers.
The change from petroleum to electric transportation infrastructure is going to be an expensive one.
The only reason there is a push is because it's a way to provide social proof.
Plug in hybrids are a much better solution.
At the current adoption rate, energy stored in EVs will soon surpass the entire annual output of the US power grid.
The current power grid infrastructure will not be able to meet the electrical charging demands. This is a huge problem politicians are ignoring. The only people really tuned into this are the power providers.
The change from petroleum to electric transportation infrastructure is going to be an expensive one.
Agreed. We need new nuclear plants by the dozens!
Unfortunately we will soon find out that strip mining the earth is bad for our health, environment, whatever. I haven't seen a Cat powered D-10 or dump truck powered by sunlight yet. Guess we will need a lot diesel for our clean revolution.
My motto is "Earth first, then we will drill the other planets!"
Unfortunately we will soon find out that strip mining the earth is bad for our health, environment, whatever. I haven't seen a Cat powered D-10 or dump truck powered by sunlight yet. Guess we will need a lot diesel for our clean revolution.
My motto is "Earth first, then we will drill the other planets!"
Promises promises. Like everything else with EVs, Utopia is just around the corner.hph6203 said:
100 gWh annual recycling and manufacturing plant being constructed in South Carolina scheduled to go into operation by the end of next year. They say they can recoup 95% of all battery materials from spent batteries. They already have a 6+ gWh pilot line operating in Nevada.
For all the praise that Elon gets, the founder of this company, JB Straubel, is the brains behind the battery pack in the Tesla vehicles. He is the former CTO of Tesla and is a lock to return to Tesla as a member of the board. He knows more than you about batteries, undoubtedly.
https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/news/announcing-redwood-south-carolina/
"It's not here yet," breathless advocates tell us. "But just you wait. It's going to be great!"
Trump will fix it.
Pretty sure you said they can't be recycled, not that they aren't en masse. Infrastructure takes time to build, but the reality is there are companies recycling batteries and recovering 95+% of materials from the battery. Tesla recycles their batteries, Redwood recycles batteries from consumer electronics. They can be recycled despite your claim that they can't.
How much energy is required to recycle them? How much water? Is it cost effective? Is it dangerous for the workers? Does the process cause any pollution?hph6203 said:
Pretty sure you said they can't be recycled, not that they aren't en masse. Infrastructure takes time to build, but the reality is there are companies recycling batteries and recovering 95+% of materials from the battery. Tesla recycles their batteries, Redwood recycles batteries from consumer electronics. They can be recycled despite your claim that they can't.
It is cost effective. Straubel, if I recall correctly, stated that it should reduce battery material costs for the metals in batteries by 80% when it reaches circular production (meaning minimal mining required due to the vast majority of materials coming from recycling). That's a good enough answer for me.
Every form of manufacturing has some worker risk and some level of pollution, that is a hazard of life. It is not merely doing an analysis of battery recycling, it's analyzing battery manufacturing and mining and electric vehicle manufacturing and then comparing that to combustion vehicle production, gasoline refinement, oil refinement for motor oil, artificial motor oil production, motor oil recycling, antifreeze disposal etc etc It is a turtles all the way down analysis that I personally don't care about.
What I care about is that electric vehicles are 50-75% more efficient at moving people from place to place. And they are safer. They're also on a pathway to be cheaper to buy than gas vehicles. Of Tesla's vehicles only one is more expensive than it was 4 years ago, the Model 3 RWD, the rest are either the same price or 8-12% cheaper. That's compared to the broader auto market that has risen in price by 30% over the last 4 years. That's while their range has expanded by 0-20% (with most models seeing range gains). In 2020 the average electric vehicle was 42% more expensive than the average vehicle, now it's only 20%. That much change in 2 years.
Wait another 4 years and EVs will be the same price, with Tesla likely leading the way in affordability and undercutting their combustion counterparts. While costing the driver 1/4 to 1/3 as much to operate.
Every form of manufacturing has some worker risk and some level of pollution, that is a hazard of life. It is not merely doing an analysis of battery recycling, it's analyzing battery manufacturing and mining and electric vehicle manufacturing and then comparing that to combustion vehicle production, gasoline refinement, oil refinement for motor oil, artificial motor oil production, motor oil recycling, antifreeze disposal etc etc It is a turtles all the way down analysis that I personally don't care about.
What I care about is that electric vehicles are 50-75% more efficient at moving people from place to place. And they are safer. They're also on a pathway to be cheaper to buy than gas vehicles. Of Tesla's vehicles only one is more expensive than it was 4 years ago, the Model 3 RWD, the rest are either the same price or 8-12% cheaper. That's compared to the broader auto market that has risen in price by 30% over the last 4 years. That's while their range has expanded by 0-20% (with most models seeing range gains). In 2020 the average electric vehicle was 42% more expensive than the average vehicle, now it's only 20%. That much change in 2 years.
Wait another 4 years and EVs will be the same price, with Tesla likely leading the way in affordability and undercutting their combustion counterparts. While costing the driver 1/4 to 1/3 as much to operate.
JB Straubel, who believed in grid storage when he stormed out of Tesla. Sure, let's just take his word for it that his secret plan to do this complex mechanical separation of materials efficiently by sorting/pulverizing toxic spent batteries will miraculously start being economical this year, and then go to scale.hph6203 said:
It is cost effective. Straubel, if I recall correctly, stated that it should reduce battery material costs for the metals in batteries by 80% when it reaches circular production (meaning minimal mining required due to the vast majority of materials coming from recycling). That's a good enough answer for me.
Why not?
Despite your deep knowledge of the grid and its capabilities that lead you to believe that 60% of energy from renewables is lost due to transmission lines, I'm going to trust the guy that announced a $3.5 billion processing facility and designed an electric vehicle battery pack that has lead to more than 4 million vehicles over you. He is also not the only person saying it.
Somehow he was foolish enough to think that grid scale storage was a viable business, he has been proven totally wrong. Tesla didn't have $1.5 billion in sales this last quarter for grid storage. Up 250% from a year ago. That business absolutely doesn't have 2 years of back orders with an >$18 billion per year expected run rate by the end of the year. And >$36 billion by the end of 2025.
There is absolutely not utility in grid storage. It is an economically unviable product that people are spending billions on.
Somehow he was foolish enough to think that grid scale storage was a viable business, he has been proven totally wrong. Tesla didn't have $1.5 billion in sales this last quarter for grid storage. Up 250% from a year ago. That business absolutely doesn't have 2 years of back orders with an >$18 billion per year expected run rate by the end of the year. And >$36 billion by the end of 2025.
There is absolutely not utility in grid storage. It is an economically unviable product that people are spending billions on.
LOL, you have utterly no clue what you're talking about, as usual.hph6203 said:
Despite your deep knowledge of the grid and its capabilities that lead you to believe that 60% of energy from renewables is lost due to transmission lines, I'm going to trust the guy that announced a $3.5 billion processing facility and designed an electric vehicle battery pack that has lead to more than 4 million vehicles over you. He is also not the only person saying it.
Somehow he was foolish enough to think that grid scale storage was a viable business, he has been proven totally wrong. Tesla didn't have $1.5 billion in sales this last quarter for grid storage. Up 250% from a year ago. That business absolutely doesn't have 2 years of back orders with an >$18 billion per year expected run rate by the end of the year. And >$36 billion by the end of 2025.
There is absolutely not utility in grid storage. It is an economically unviable product that people are spending billions on.
I won't address any of your 'points' other than to provide a helpful analysis for folks who might have greater reading comprehension/aren't religious fanatics about the revolution in battery storage you fervently believe in but have zero comprehension of.
So we're pivoting now? I am by no means religious about it, and I am not unaware of the immense amount of battery manufacturing that would be necessary to create a grid that is built on renewables. The utility today of grid storage is resiliency and for capture of lost renewables due to production exceeding demand. That is an economically viable product.
I don't think there's a single post about the environmental impact related to electric vehicles that I've made on this forum. The only references to emissions you'll see me make is correcting the fallacy that electric vehicles are higher emissions than gas vehicles. More to produce, substantially lower over their lifetime. I don't care about that though, all I care about is that they are dramatically more efficient, making them cheaper to operate and ultimately will be cheaper to buy.
That article you posted is about a 5th grader level of analysis of grid scale storage by the way.
I don't think there's a single post about the environmental impact related to electric vehicles that I've made on this forum. The only references to emissions you'll see me make is correcting the fallacy that electric vehicles are higher emissions than gas vehicles. More to produce, substantially lower over their lifetime. I don't care about that though, all I care about is that they are dramatically more efficient, making them cheaper to operate and ultimately will be cheaper to buy.
That article you posted is about a 5th grader level of analysis of grid scale storage by the way.
Not me. I suspect you have Velcro shoes though.hph6203 said:
So we're pivoting now?
They're about efficiency.
https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradation/
Tesla says their batteries degrade about 12% at 200,000 miles. Not bad.
Tesla says their batteries degrade about 12% at 200,000 miles. Not bad.
Californian learns a lesson.
A Californian took his brand new Rivian through central Wyoming, an area of snowy mountains and long stretches of open highway between charging stations. He had to be towed from a rest stop about 80 miles from the next charging station. https://t.co/qoJZDdaQ96
— Kevin Killough (@kevindkillough) April 25, 2023
Quote:
When it comes to cross-country travel, many electric vehicle owners have learned to take their vehicles' range readings with a grain of salt especially in cold weather.
That's a lesson one man learned the hard way last week when he tried to drive his Rivian electric pickup truck through a rural part of Wyoming with disappointing results.
Tow truck operator Jake Yeaman of Specialty Towing in Laramie shared the story on his Facebook page.
"Towed my first EV Today," he said.
"A brand new $90,000 electric pickup from the rest area on South Pass to Rocksprings…
"He had charged in Riverton enough to go 120 miles, but ran out of kilovolts halfway over the mountain (about 60 miles) so you might want to make sure your tank is full of electrons before tackling any mountain passes."
But but .. . Most EV owners only go 20 miles from their house.Dickdelaware said:
Californian learns a lesson.A Californian took his brand new Rivian through central Wyoming, an area of snowy mountains and long stretches of open highway between charging stations. He had to be towed from a rest stop about 80 miles from the next charging station. https://t.co/qoJZDdaQ96
— Kevin Killough (@kevindkillough) April 25, 2023Quote:
When it comes to cross-country travel, many electric vehicle owners have learned to take their vehicles' range readings with a grain of salt especially in cold weather.
That's a lesson one man learned the hard way last week when he tried to drive his Rivian electric pickup truck through a rural part of Wyoming with disappointing results.
Tow truck operator Jake Yeaman of Specialty Towing in Laramie shared the story on his Facebook page.
"Towed my first EV Today," he said.
"A brand new $90,000 electric pickup from the rest area on South Pass to Rocksprings…
"He had charged in Riverton enough to go 120 miles, but ran out of kilovolts halfway over the mountain (about 60 miles) so you might want to make sure your tank is full of electrons before tackling any mountain passes."
Trump will fix it.
techno-ag said:But but .. . Most EV owners only go 20 miles from their house.Dickdelaware said:
Californian learns a lesson.A Californian took his brand new Rivian through central Wyoming, an area of snowy mountains and long stretches of open highway between charging stations. He had to be towed from a rest stop about 80 miles from the next charging station. https://t.co/qoJZDdaQ96
— Kevin Killough (@kevindkillough) April 25, 2023Quote:
When it comes to cross-country travel, many electric vehicle owners have learned to take their vehicles' range readings with a grain of salt especially in cold weather.
That's a lesson one man learned the hard way last week when he tried to drive his Rivian electric pickup truck through a rural part of Wyoming with disappointing results.
Tow truck operator Jake Yeaman of Specialty Towing in Laramie shared the story on his Facebook page.
"Towed my first EV Today," he said.
"A brand new $90,000 electric pickup from the rest area on South Pass to Rocksprings…
"He had charged in Riverton enough to go 120 miles, but ran out of kilovolts halfway over the mountain (about 60 miles) so you might want to make sure your tank is full of electrons before tackling any mountain passes."
It's the truth. Most EV owners realize their benefit is in commuting, not long distance travel.
eliag04
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How long do you want to ignore this user?
I've driven EVs and they are fun to drive thanks to all that instant torque. I didn't like losing 1/3 of the battery when I left it unplugged for a day and a half though....
That said, I won't own one until battery technology gets to the point where charging from empty to full charge takes less than 10 minutes. For now I'll keep with ICE and/or hybrids. They fit my needs better.
That said, I won't own one until battery technology gets to the point where charging from empty to full charge takes less than 10 minutes. For now I'll keep with ICE and/or hybrids. They fit my needs better.
California is moving to mandate bi-directional charging for all EV's. This means your car will, when plugged in, be drained or charged depending on what the utility company wants, and also lead to more battery degradation over time, in addition to longer charging times/more inconvenience.
Naturally, I think many can foresee the public charging infrastructure being handicapped when in 'brown out' or 'high load' peak periods, as well, plausibly stranding people at work/where they are until 'enough' electricity is available for long enough to charge their EV's to get home (especially when 50+ percent of cars are battery powered down the road as planned).
Naturally, I think many can foresee the public charging infrastructure being handicapped when in 'brown out' or 'high load' peak periods, as well, plausibly stranding people at work/where they are until 'enough' electricity is available for long enough to charge their EV's to get home (especially when 50+ percent of cars are battery powered down the road as planned).
I've done that drive across Wyoming on I-80. Even in my hybrid I got down to about a gallon of gasoline before finding a gas station. Thing about the gas station was that you walk in and commonly see other customers with .357 magnum revolvers in open carry mode so the Californian probably needed some counseling after his trip.
“If you’re going to have crime it should at least be organized crime”
-Havelock Vetinari
-Havelock Vetinari
1/4 of BEV charging stations don't work?
Quote:
Cost and charger conundrum
Roughly 80% of Americans name "costs" and the "availability of charging stations" as their EV biggest concerns. There are only 53,000 electric charging stations in the U.S. compared to 145,000 gas stations, according to the World Economic Forum. Charging an EV is substantially more time consuming, which explains why charging stations need to exceed gas stations for comparable availability.
Reliability ranks as another key issue. Drivers seldom have to worry about their local gas station being out of service but one-fourth of charging stations tested by climate advocacy group Cool the Earth didn't function.
Yeah it's not ready for prime time. Not to mention the added strain on the grid and the shortage of rare earth materials for batteries.
Trump will fix it.
techno-ag said:
Yeah it's not ready for prime time. Not to mention the added strain on the grid and the shortage of rare earth materials for batteries.
For some it is, for some it isn't. It's not wise to make a blanket statement for everyone's situation.
Teslag said:techno-ag said:
Yeah it's not ready for prime time. Not to mention the added strain on the grid and the shortage of rare earth materials for batteries.
For some it is, for some it isn't. It's not wise to make a blanket statement for everyone's situation.
Pot meet kettle.
If you read through this thread you will see that have repeatedly said EV's don't make sense for a substantial part of the population. I can approach this topic with pragmatism. Many obviously cannot.
Not ready for prime time is indeed general but I think you're taking it too personally. It's good for you personally but be honest. You yourself have indicated the country is nowhere near ready for a complete transition to only EV.Teslag said:techno-ag said:
Yeah it's not ready for prime time. Not to mention the added strain on the grid and the shortage of rare earth materials for batteries.
For some it is, for some it isn't. It's not wise to make a blanket statement for everyone's situation.
Trump will fix it.
The only thing I know for sure is that he/she will respond again, multiple times today, exclaiming how right they are.
Teslag said:
For some it is, for some it isn't. It's not wise to make a blanket statement for everyone's situation.
How to say "not ready for prime time" w/out saying not ready for prime time.
Texas House passes bill to charge EV's $200/year fee.
I support this legislation! Tax the rich/snobby. Also, double tax, increase the fee for custom plates. This tax is small, but I am sure it will go up with time as all taxes do.
EV's are heavier (causing more road wear), and the rest of us pay 50 cents a gallon or more in taxes on the fuel used to pay for it. (Half or more to the feds).Quote:
In a landslide decision, the Texas House approved a $200 annual fee for owners of electric vehicles. Now, the bill will be handed to Governor Greg Abbott for final approval before being passed into law.
The bill, which passed 145-0, looks to replace the gas tax the drivers of conventional vehicles already pay. Money raised from the gas tax helps pay for roads and other infrastructure, making it an important pool of money for Texas, reports The Dallas Morning News.
In 2015, Texas raised $3.4 billion with the tax, which adds another 20 cents per gallon to the price of gasoline and diesel. That made it the fourth-largest source of tax revenue for the state, which does not charge an annual income tax for individuals.
I support this legislation! Tax the rich/snobby. Also, double tax, increase the fee for custom plates. This tax is small, but I am sure it will go up with time as all taxes do.
There are folks on F16 who want to "Tax the Rich"? Times really are a-changing.nortex97 said:
Texas House passes bill to charge EV's $200/year fee.EV's are heavier (causing more road wear), and the rest of us pay 50 cents a gallon or more in taxes on the fuel used to pay for it. (Half or more to the feds).Quote:
In a landslide decision, the Texas House approved a $200 annual fee for owners of electric vehicles. Now, the bill will be handed to Governor Greg Abbott for final approval before being passed into law.
The bill, which passed 145-0, looks to replace the gas tax the drivers of conventional vehicles already pay. Money raised from the gas tax helps pay for roads and other infrastructure, making it an important pool of money for Texas, reports The Dallas Morning News.
In 2015, Texas raised $3.4 billion with the tax, which adds another 20 cents per gallon to the price of gasoline and diesel. That made it the fourth-largest source of tax revenue for the state, which does not charge an annual income tax for individuals.
I support this legislation! Tax the rich/snobby. Also, double tax, increase the fee for custom plates. This tax is small, but I am sure it will go up with time as all taxes do.
We're all gonna pay more in taxes since the Kenyan One and Biden got 'elected.' Might as well make sure the rich snobbish dems driving BEV's pay their 'fair share.'
The members of the politburo don't worry about it, but everyone else can eat cake.
The members of the politburo don't worry about it, but everyone else can eat cake.
You just lit the Teslag Bat signal.
Trump will fix it.
nortex97 said:
Texas House passes bill to charge EV's $200/year fee.EV's are heavier (causing more road wear), and the rest of us pay 50 cents a gallon or more in taxes on the fuel used to pay for it. (Half or more to the feds).Quote:
In a landslide decision, the Texas House approved a $200 annual fee for owners of electric vehicles. Now, the bill will be handed to Governor Greg Abbott for final approval before being passed into law.
The bill, which passed 145-0, looks to replace the gas tax the drivers of conventional vehicles already pay. Money raised from the gas tax helps pay for roads and other infrastructure, making it an important pool of money for Texas, reports The Dallas Morning News.
In 2015, Texas raised $3.4 billion with the tax, which adds another 20 cents per gallon to the price of gasoline and diesel. That made it the fourth-largest source of tax revenue for the state, which does not charge an annual income tax for individuals.
I support this legislation! Tax the rich/snobby. Also, double tax, increase the fee for custom plates. This tax is small, but I am sure it will go up with time as all taxes do.
$200 is too low. Should be between $350 and $500 if we are being fair
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