I see Teslag did not comment on the coalminer story.

He said with all the gadgets in the car that nobody would run out of juice anywhere remote or otherwise.

Now I'm being a little facetious because people let their cars run out of gas too but, he sure skipped over it.

Completely uneconomic, based entirely on false premises (fake environmental premises, fake economic premises) and foreign agendas, totally useless in any crisis or for any real utility (other than limited urban and suburbia travel when there is no crisis), all being being pushed so that macro control is consolidated in government and the interests that run it - and to ensure that individual economic freedom and travel freedom can be eliminated.

Oil and gas is clean, and a small company can go make millions for itself, its employees and landowners, and can easily distribute freedom and prosperity to every person regardless of government or big tech.

That is why they want to kill it.

Not because there is any environmental or economic benefit

cbr said:

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Completely uneconomic, based entirely on false premises (fake environmental premises, fake economic premises) and foreign agendas, totally useless in any crisis or for any real utility (other than limited urban and suburbia travel when there is no crisis), all being being pushed so that macro control is consolidated in government and the interests that run it - and to ensure that individual economic freedom and travel freedom can be eliminated.

Oil and gas is clean, and a small company can go make millions for itself, its employees and landowners, and can easily distribute freedom and prosperity to every person regardless of government or big tech.

That is why they want to kill it.

Not because there is any environmental or economic benefit

---

Yup. Obligatory picture of a lithium mine. How environmentally friendly.

annie88 said:

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I see Teslag did not comment on the coalminer story.

He said with all the gadgets in the car that nobody would run out of juice anywhere remote or otherwise.

Now I'm being a little facetious because people let their cars run out of gas too but, he sure skipped over it.

---

1. I did address it. Anyone that runs out of charge in a Tesla is a moron.

2. The vehicle in the coal miner story was not a Tesla

annie88 said:

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TXAG 05 said:

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For what a Tesla costs, you think they could at least make them look good. They are just not attractive looking cars.

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You're gonna get it now! TeslAg wolf call.

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Why? Vehicle looks are subjective.

Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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I see Teslag did not comment on the coalminer story.

He said with all the gadgets in the car that nobody would run out of juice anywhere remote or otherwise.

Now I'm being a little facetious because people let their cars run out of gas too but, he sure skipped over it.

---

1. I did address it. Anyone that runs out of charge in a Tesla is a moron.

2. The vehicle in the coal miner story was not a Tesla

---

But it's still an electric car.

Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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TXAG 05 said:

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For what a Tesla costs, you think they could at least make them look good. They are just not attractive looking cars.

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You're gonna get it now! TeslAg wolf call.

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Why? Vehicle looks are subjective.

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But apparently opinions about electric vehicles are not?

annie88 said:

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Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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TXAG 05 said:

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For what a Tesla costs, you think they could at least make them look good. They are just not attractive looking cars.

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You're gonna get it now! TeslAg wolf call.

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Why? Vehicle looks are subjective.

---

But apparently opinions about electric vehicles are not?

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Opinions are always fine. BS should be called out.

annie88 said:

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Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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I see Teslag did not comment on the coalminer story.

He said with all the gadgets in the car that nobody would run out of juice anywhere remote or otherwise.

Now I'm being a little facetious because people let their cars run out of gas too but, he sure skipped over it.

---

1. I did address it. Anyone that runs out of charge in a Tesla is a moron.

2. The vehicle in the coal miner story was not a Tesla

---

But it's still an electric car.

---

All electric cars are not created equal. I would never drive a POS Chevy Bolt. That's what you fail to understand. The draw to Tesla and equivalent electrics aren't because people want to save the environment or be green. The tech and performance is the draw for many. It shows that if done correctly the demand is there without government picking winners.

Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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I see Teslag did not comment on the coalminer story.

He said with all the gadgets in the car that nobody would run out of juice anywhere remote or otherwise.

Now I'm being a little facetious because people let their cars run out of gas too but, he sure skipped over it.

---

1. I did address it. Anyone that runs out of charge in a Tesla is a moron.

2. The vehicle in the coal miner story was not a Tesla

---

But it's still an electric car.

---

All electric cars are not created equal. I would never drive a POS Chevy Bolt. That's what you fail to understand. The draw to Tesla and equivalent electrics aren't because people want to save the environment or be green. The tech and performance is the draw for many. It shows that if done correctly the demand is there without government picking winners.

---

But the push the government is making is not just for Teslas. It's for ALL electric vehicles. And they are pushing the environment and the green energy as a reason. So you even saying that is completely untrue. Again it is not feasible or sustainable at all on any level right now.

Most people can't afford Teslas.

And look, dude, if you like it that's great, drive it to you die, but you keep trying to defend electric cars then you turn around and say they're not all equal.

That's the whole freaking point!

Anytime someone has posted a negative aspect of electric cars weather Teslas are not you come back here and try to defend it and claim how wonderful Teslas are. Bully for you. Most people can't afford them. California is not saying everybody needs to get a Tesla, they're saying everyone is an electric car which we know can't happen, especially when they say more on turn back around and say don't use electricity.

You're passionate defense of Tesla is almost pathological. We're glad you like it but holy ****, are you getting some kind of kickback for this?

You're getting too emotional over this in your replies. It's simply a car. I've been consistent in saying they aren't right for everyone but for some they are a perfect choice and that government shouldn't pick winners.

I'm not the one posting blanket statements like "I'll never buy an electric vehicle" without complete knowledge of how they work and what they really are capable of. There's a ****load of ignorance regarding EV's ands comical to see how much is repeated here.

Half this board probably still thinks they take an hour to charge on the road or that they have no allure to anyone but environmentalists.

baseballaficionado said:

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Someone tell me this: How is this world going to dispose of the batteries?

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How are people that OWN EVs going to PAY for replacement batteries?

I realize few '90s cars are still on the road but there are some. Toyotas, Hondas, a few Mazdas, some trucks and SUVs, mostly domestic, and a scattering of others here and there (not to mention classics, by anyone's definitions).

Now, fast forward to 2082. How many EVs from the 2050s will be around? There's no way to predict, but unless battery life starts improving substantially like in the next 2-3 years, no EVs from the 2020s are going to be around in the 2030s, much less farther into the century. It will probably progressively get better (as far as EV longevity), but what's going to happen with all that waste? Sure, the metals can be repurposed like on current cars, but what about the battery and other materials on there that can't? Right now, you're going from a car battery (gas) the size of a small cooler to one (EV) the size of a small tabletop.

I'm sorry, but EVs have NOT been thought out very well.

Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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TXAG 05 said:

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For what a Tesla costs, you think they could at least make them look good. They are just not attractive looking cars.

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You're gonna get it now! TeslAg wolf call.

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Why? Vehicle looks are subjective.

---

But apparently opinions about electric vehicles are not?

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Opinions are always fine. BS should be called out.

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Yeah, that's why we're calling you out.

The entire green movement in one picture.🤣 pic.twitter.com/fGLCFmQXzl

— txaggal (@txaggal) September 7, 2022

Teslag said:

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You're getting too emotional over this in your replies. It's simply a car. I've been consistent in saying they aren't right for everyone but for some they are a perfect choice and that government shouldn't pick winners.

I'm not the one posting blanket statements like "I'll never buy an electric vehicle" without complete knowledge of how they work and what they really are capable of. There's a ****load of ignorance regarding EV's ands comical to see how much is repeated here.

Half this board probably still thinks they take an hour to charge on the road or that they have no allure to anyone but environmentalists.

---

I'm not getting emotional, I'm being a smart ass. You are way over the top on this but I'll keep going if you will. It's fun to debate.

That said the green movement is a bunch of bull***** Again, I have said over and over if you want to get an electric Tesla go ahead.

But the fact that the insane left thinks that everybody can just drive electric cars to the point of where they are banning gas cars in states is ****ing crazy. just absolutely not feasible or sustainable. Regardless of the type of electric vehicle.

There is nothing wrong with gas or oil or coal. Fossil fuels are in abundance on this earth and there is no risk to keep using them. They're more practical and they make more sense.

Your turn, unless you're getting too emotional.

You are trying way too hard to convince people of some thing they have no interest in. How about you do what you wanna do and we will do what we want to do

Quote:

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How about you do what you wanna do and we will do what we want to do

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Agree! And, while you're at it, how's about ending all of the got damn subsidies flowing the "green" way?! That's the part that rubs most of us the wrong way!

annie88 said:

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Teslag said:

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You're getting too emotional over this in your replies. It's simply a car. I've been consistent in saying they aren't right for everyone but for some they are a perfect choice and that government shouldn't pick winners.

I'm not the one posting blanket statements like "I'll never buy an electric vehicle" without complete knowledge of how they work and what they really are capable of. There's a ****load of ignorance regarding EV's ands comical to see how much is repeated here.

Half this board probably still thinks they take an hour to charge on the road or that they have no allure to anyone but environmentalists.

---

I'm not getting emotional, I'm being a smart ass. You are way over the top on this but I'll keep going if you will. It's fun to debate.

That said the green movement is a bunch of bull***** Again, I have said over and over if you want to get an electric Tesla go ahead.

But the fact that the insane left thinks that everybody can just drive electric cars to the point of where they are banning gas cars in states is ****ing crazy. just absolutely not feasible or sustainable. Regardless of the type of electric vehicle.

There is nothing wrong with gas or oil or coal. Fossil fuels are in abundance on this earth and there is no risk to keep using them. They're more practical and they make more sense.

Your turn, unless you're getting too emotional.

You are trying way too hard to convince people of some thing they have no interest in. How about you do what you wanna do and we will do what we want to do

---

I agree with everything you've said. As I've said countless times to you and others, environmental issues had no bearing or motive in my decision to drive a Tesla. And they haven't to any other Tesla owner I know. They are simply fun, awesome, and amazingly advanced vehicles. They aren't for everyone and they certainly aren't "green". Tesla has proven that EV's can be sensible for many buyers, regardless of their political or environmental concerns or lack of concerns. They have also proven that there is demand for these vehicles even with a lack of government subsidies (Tesla had no federal tax incentives from 2019 to 2022, when they had record sales).

My issue is people keep repeating a bunch of easily debunked or outright fabrications regarding the capabilities of EV's.

Fair enough but I don't think even Tesla would agree with you on this point:

They are simply fun, awesome, and amazingly advanced vehicles. They aren't for everyone and they certainly aren't "green"

"According to Musk, the purpose of Tesla is to help expedite the move to sustainable transport and energy, obtained through electric vehicles and solar power."

" As we continue to ramp production of Tesla products, we are committed to making significant progress towards our goal of operating global Tesla manufacturing, vehicle charging and other operations using 100% renewable energy."

"Today, Tesla builds not only all-electric vehicles but also infinitely scalable clean energy generation and storage products. Tesla believes the faster the world stops relying on fossil fuels and moves towards a zero-emission future, the better."

So I kind of think the green thing as part of their selling product.

All of that said, if I ever woke up one day and decided I needed an electric car, I probably would get a Tesla over anything else but I still don't ever see that happening.

I've seen a few around town and they're not bad looking cars but I prefer SUVs. I haven't had a car since 1989, only SUVs and I wouldn't go back.

Musk has softened his stance on O&G

https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2022/08/29/elon-musk-renews-push-for-fossil-fuels-as-he-claims-civilization-will-crumble-without-oil-and-gas/?sh=67499a6c4635

Quote:

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"Realistically I think we need to use oil and gas in the short term, because otherwise civilisation will crumble," Musk told reporters on the sidelines of the conference.
Asked if Norway should continue to drill for oil and gas, Musk said: "I think some additional exploration is warranted at this time."
"One of the biggest challenges the world has ever faced is the transition to sustainable energy and to a sustainable economy," he said. "That will take some decades to complete."

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LOL.

But more seriously, they (BEV's) are dirty vehicles;

Quote:

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While praising California's decision to ban the sale of new gasoline-powered cars by 2035, Governor Gavin Newsom declared that this will require "100% of new car sales in California to be zero-emission vehicles" like "electric cars." In reality, electric cars emit substantial amounts of pollutants and may be more harmful to the environment than conventional cars.

Toxic Pollution

The notion that electric vehicles are "zero-emission" is rooted in a deceptive narrative that ignores all pollutants which don't come out of a tailpipe. Assessing the environmental impacts of energy technologies requires measuring all forms of pollution they emit over their entire lives, not a narrow slice of them. To do this, researchers perform "life cycle assessments" or LCAs. As explained by the Environmental Protection Agency, LCAs allow for:

Quote:

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the estimation of the cumulative environmental impacts resulting from all stages in the product life cycle, often including impacts not considered in more traditional analyses (e.g., raw material extraction, material transportation, ultimate product disposal, etc.). By including the impacts throughout the product life cycle, LCA provides a comprehensive view of the environmental aspects of the product or process and a more accurate picture of the true environmental trade-offs in product and process selection.

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LCAs are subject to multiple levels of uncertainty, but an assessment published by the Journal of Cleaner Production in 2021 shatters the notion that electric cars are cleaner than conventional ones, much less "zero emission." The LCA found that manufacturing, charging, operating, and disposing of electric vehicles produces more of every major category of pollutants than conventional cars. This includes:

Quote:

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an increase in fine particulate matter formation (26%), human carcinogenic (20%) and non-carcinogenic toxicity (61%), terrestrial ecotoxicity (31%), freshwater ecotoxicity (39%), and marine ecotoxicity (41%) relative to petrol vehicles.

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Foreshadowing that result, a 2018 report by the European Environment Agency warned that studies on the "human toxicity impacts" of electric vehicles were "limited" and that electric cars "could be responsible for greater negative impacts" than conventional cars.

Similarly, a 2018 article in the journal Environmental Research Letters stated that a failure to account for the "environmental implications" of mining lithium to make batteries for electric cars "would directly counter the intent" of "incentivizing electric vehicle adoption" and "needs to be urgently addressed."

The 2021 paper in the Journal of Cleaner Production has now addressed this issue, and it shows electric cars emit more toxic pollution than gasoline-powered cars. Yet, politicians who embraced the electric car agenda before comprehensive data was available continue to plow ahead in spite of the facts.

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Quote:

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Consequences

Like Newsom, the California Air Resources Board boasts that "100% of new cars and light trucks sold in California will be zero-emission vehicles" by 2035. Assuming Newsom and the board members have at least a rudimentary knowledge of electric cars, calling them "zero-emission vehicles" is a lie.

A Google search reveals that journalists and many others are also using this inherently false phrase.

The harms of this deceit extend well beyond pollution. This is because electric cars are more costly than other options, and that's why people rarely buy electric cars unless governments subsidize or mandate them. As documented by a 2021 paper in the journal Transport and Environment:

Quote:

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Mass market adoption of electric vehicles will likely require either that governments restrict the sale of gasoline-powered vehicles (as planned in some countries and California) or that BEVs [battery electric vehicles] become cost-competitive with gasoline-powered vehicles of similar size and styling.

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Regardless of whether these additional costs are paid by consumers or taxpayers, they make people poorer because these expensive cars ultimately travel fewer miles for every dollar spent.

The same applies to other "clean energy" policies that are prevalent in California. This is a major reason why it has the highest electricity prices in the continental U.S., or 77% more than the national average.
Such policies that increase the costs of living have contributed to making California the state with the highest real poverty rate in the nation.

Despite its "green" agenda, California dominates the American Lung Association's list of cities with the poorest air quality in America. In fact, the nation's worst four cities for ozone pollution, worst five cities for year-round particle pollution, and worst two cities for short-term particle pollution are all in California.

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Consequences matter, to some.

I will just keep buying Toyota Camry Hybrids.
Gasoline Internal combustion engine with a smaller battery to gain gas mileage up to 40mpg (now up to 50mpg) in a midsize car.
Today, I get about 33 mpg for about a 500 mile range.
My cars best rated mileage: 15 gallon tank x 40mpg = 600 miles
Modern Camry best rated mileage: 15 gallon tank x 50mpg = 750 miles
And I stop and get gas anywhere there is a gas station which is pretty much everywhere without hours delay to charge.
I see it as the best of both worlds.

I drove a production model BMW iXi at the local BMW dealership.
They're making them in the US.
$80k

It was Awesome!
It's as fast as my Trackhawk.
I can charge it at home and at work and never have to visit a gas station again.
I put myself on the waiting list of less than a year

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It will be interesting to learn eventually what the replacement 102 kw/hr battery will cost to buy/get installed for those. If I had to guess, I'd go with about $30K.

Powertrain is only warranted to 50K miles, EV stuff to 100K. It's also interesting that they don't warrant them any further on a brand new design. I thought I'd read that new BEV batteries are supposed to go at least 200K/10 years. I think BMW is still telling owners to park them outside at this time.

I didn't know BMW made a minivan.

LoudestWHOOP! said:

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I will just keep buying Toyota Camry Hybrids.
Gasoline Internal combustion engine with a smaller battery to gain gas mileage up to 40mpg (now up to 50mpg) in a midsize car.
Today, I get about 33 mpg for about a 500 mile range.
My cars best rated mileage: 15 gallon tank x 40mpg = 600 miles
Modern Camry best rated mileage: 15 gallon tank x 50mpg = 750 miles
And I stop and get gas anywhere there is a gas station which is pretty much everywhere without hours delay to charge.
I see it as the best of both worlds.

---

This. I was always dubious about the hybrid vehicles, paying the additional cost didn't seem to make sense.

I decided to buy a truck, so I ordered an F150 with the smaller Ecoboost engine. Turns out I ordered the interior configuration incorrectly, so the dealer let me have a do-over. I decided to go with a Platinum with the hybrid motor.

I mostly drive around town, do some light hauling. My mileage is 23 mpg with this truck and it drives great.

I'm sold on the hybrid motor, best of both worlds.

Re battery fires
this only affects a few early models.


the advice from BMW is to park both models, built within a nine month span between 2021 and 2022, outside and to not drive or charge them. The issue has been caught, and just 83 vehicles are affected by this recall.

BMW's new giant front grill style is even more egregious when it's a giant fake grill

Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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TXAG 05 said:

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For what a Tesla costs, you think they could at least make them look good. They are just not attractive looking cars.

---

You're gonna get it now! TeslAg wolf call.

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Why? Vehicle looks are subjective.

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. The Model S is a good looking car on the out. Inside, yeah it needs works for a $75k+ vehicle.
The other models, uggg…

GAC06 said:

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BMW's new giant front grill style is even more egregious when it's a giant fake grill

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Ya
Smaller would be better
The split grilles on BMWs are like 60s and early 70s Pontiac LeMans GTO and Firebirds.
I like the Chevy Blazer EV grille and dash and 60k price is better but GM hasn't started making them yet with the 600 hp awd model not scheduled till fall of 2023 while BMW is in production since 2021.

Excaliber said:

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Re battery fires
this only affects a few early models.


the advice from BMW is to park both models, built within a nine month span between 2021 and 2022, outside and to not drive or charge them. The issue has been caught, and just 83 vehicles are affected by this recall.

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The "park it outside" is the latest ICE Warrior schtick. And it's a bad one…

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/07/08/ford-tells-drivers-to-park-outside-expands-recall-for-possible-engine-fires.html

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/hyundai-kia-recall-over-280k-vehicles-due-fire-risk-urge-owners-park-outside.amp

https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/03/2021-ram-truck-owner-encouraged-to-park-vehicle-outside-due-to-fire-risk-recall-announced.html?outputType=amp

Excaliber said:

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GAC06 said:

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BMW's new giant front grill style is even more egregious when it's a giant fake grill

---

Ya
Smaller would be better
The split grilles on BMWs are like 60s and early 70s Pontiac LeMans GTO and Firebirds.
I like the Chevy Blazer EV grille and dash and 60k price is better but GM hasn't started making them yet with the 600 hp awd model not scheduled till fall of 2023 while BMW is in production since 2021.

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For some reason I think Chevy gets the front end the 'best' of the major EV mfg's/models. Equinox/Silverado EV's also look pretty decent.

As far as BMW's are concerned, I am pretty biased toward the E39's smaller/not as tall kidney grill vs. the present monstrosities which look sort of like they are embracing steam engine locamotives for a model/starting point.

Will the electric Beemers be as unreliable as the regular ones?

techno-ag said:

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Will the electric Beemers be as unreliable as the regular ones?

The BMW dealer just called and said they will have an iXi for me in a month so I guess I'm going to find out.
EVs are simpler than ICE cars in some ways like no transmission gears and money is not an issue so I can afford to take my chances.
It was fun driving it.
BMW added a whoosh sound while driving that can be turned off.
I liked it.

So far other than some early fires the BMW EVs haven't been dogs and are available now.
I want an EV SUV and don't want Autopilot.
I can live with the grilles over waiting a year for a Blazer that hasn't started production.
Now that I'm older life is shorter and there's less time to waste.
I want to drive the car not have it drive me.
I drive 20k miles a year and never use Cruise Control and rarely go on long trips.

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As temperatures get colder, here's a reminder that electric vehicles lose as much as 40% of their range in the winter.

— Daniel Turner (@DanielTurnerPTF) September 14, 2022