Less than 2% of market share is hardly a dominant player.

tk for tu juan said:

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Still need significant electrical infrastructure improvements to meet the future demands. Every EV is the equivalent of adding another house to the electrical grid. Charging a Model3 to 80% on a Tesla Supercharger consumes the same amount of energy that a 2,000sf house typically uses in a day

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Is this true? I've never heard that comparison.

Marcus Brutus said:

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Watermelon Man said:

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halfastros81 said:

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I don't think OP is wrong . I don't really believe EV's will be the dominant player for personal vehicles for at least 20 yrs if ever. Major technological changes are going to continue to be market driven rather than edict driven. The globalists hiding behind the green movement will try but they will only succeed if the tech advances and makes it a market driven change.

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Edits are weird.

I think the OP is wrong. EVs are a dominant player for personal vehicles today, and their market share is growing. The tech advances will follow investment, which is why government incentives are working to get us there. The reason ICE vehicles don't face the obstacles that EV does is the market forces favor ICE. When the market forces favor the EV, nobody is going to want to maintain their own heat engine.

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That's some really dumb *****

EVs are dominant players?

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They're scaring you!

Scud Runner said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Still need significant electrical infrastructure improvements to meet the future demands. Every EV is the equivalent of adding another house to the electrical grid. Charging a Model3 to 80% on a Tesla Supercharger consumes the same amount of energy that a 2,000sf house typically uses in a day

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Is this true? I've never heard that comparison.

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This is certainly anecdotal but my cousin who has the plug in Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid I just ordered lives in an expensive state, Maryland. Takes two hours to charge it, and it raised their utility bill by about $40 a month

Now tell me the cost to replace batteries and what is their lifespan?

baseballaficionado said:

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We were at an HEB in Hutto the other day, getting gas. They have the Tesla charging stations close to the toll road. As we pull out, my wife was asking me what they do while they're waiting? I told her to look at the drivers. They are on laptops, sleeping, etc.

Outside of being anti climate, they are a huge burden on the owner. You can keep that ****, even as much as Elon has grown on me.

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Our AH-HAH moment was watching a couple in West Yellowstone sitting in their tesla reading books while waiting to recharge. Great way to spend valuable vacation time! We got in our rented expedition and were on our way while they recharged.

mccjames said:

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Now tell me the cost to replace batteries and what is their lifespan?

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10 years 100k warranty on the battery, I don't keep vehicles that long so won't be an issue

My quick google search is 100-150k warranty coverage and 16k cost to replace. So make sure you don't keep it longer than warrant and you should be good.

tk for tu juan said:

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Still need significant electrical infrastructure improvements to meet the future demands. Every EV is the equivalent of adding another house to the electrical grid. Charging a Model3 to 80% on a Tesla Supercharger consumes the same amount of energy that a 2,000sf house typically uses in a day

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Nothing but BS.

We need significant electrical infrastructure improvements regardless. Just the quip that the typical 2000sf house consumes less than a Telsa3 shows that your information is outdated. The average Texas 2000sf house uses more that a Telsa3 charger. Maybe you should review your info sources.

MapGuy said:

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mccjames said:

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Now tell me the cost to replace batteries and what is their lifespan?

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10 years 100k warranty on the battery, I don't keep vehicles that long so won't be an issue

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But if the battery capacity dramatically drops and the expected lifetime is about 10 years, you will trade or resale for a whole lot less than an ICE vehicle.

I checked the comparison between electrical consumption of a Tesla 3 vs a 2000 sq ft home. Assuming you drive 100 miles a day it's 34 kw-hrs versus average consumption for a 2000 sq ft home is 38 kWh. Pretty close.

The charger isn't 100% efficient so it's actually closer than that . Does not seem like a ridiculous claim .

Maybe the 100 miles per day is long, I dunno. Probably is now that I think about it as that would be 36,500 miles per yr. If you consider 2 Tesla 3's tho ?

Marcus Brutus said:

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MapGuy said:

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mccjames said:

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Now tell me the cost to replace batteries and what is their lifespan?

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10 years 100k warranty on the battery, I don't keep vehicles that long so won't be an issue

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But if the battery capacity dramatically drops and the expected lifetime is about 10 years, you will trade or resale for a whole lot less than an ICE vehicle.

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The battery capacity and performance on the vehicle I just ordered is guaranteed for 10 years or 100k, so far as resale or trade in, this may sound uppity, but that isn't factoring into my decision. We are getting $6,500 trade in on the ICE Civic, plus the $7,500 tax credit, makes a vehicle I may not have spent the money on originally seem like a better deal for the reason I listed earlier in the thread. The trade in value and resale will be more than offset by 85 mpg during the lifetime of the vehicle,while we own it

What about the 3 car families driving 33 miles per day each? The charger wars would equal or surpass the bathroom wars

halfastros81 said:

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I checked the comparison between electrical consumption of a Tesla 3 vs a 2000 sq ft home. Assuming you drive 100 miles a day it's 34 kw-hrs versus average consumption for a 2000 sq ft home is 38 kWh. Pretty close.

The charger isn't 100% efficient so it's actually closer than that . Does not seem like a ridiculous claim .

Maybe the 100 miles per day is long, I dunno. Probably is now that I think about it as that would be 36,500 miles per yr. If you consider 2 Tesla 3's tho ?

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Let's see. If you drive 100 miles per day at 20 MPG, that's 5 gallons per day. At $3.50 per gallon, that's $17.50 per day or $525 per month. You pay over $500/month for electricity for your home?

MapGuy said:

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Marcus Brutus said:

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MapGuy said:

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mccjames said:

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Now tell me the cost to replace batteries and what is their lifespan?

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10 years 100k warranty on the battery, I don't keep vehicles that long so won't be an issue

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But if the battery capacity dramatically drops and the expected lifetime is about 10 years, you will trade or resale for a whole lot less than an ICE vehicle.

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The battery capacity and performance on the vehicle I just ordered is guaranteed for 10 years or 100k, so far as resale or trade in, this may sound uppity, but that isn't factoring into my decision. We are getting $6,500 trade in on the ICE Civic, plus the $7,500 tax credit, makes a vehicle I may not have spent the money on originally seem like a better deal for the reason I listed earlier in the thread. The trade in value and resale will be more than offset by 85 mpg during the lifetime of the vehicle,while we own it

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Probably not. I did some rough arithmetic. At $4/gl, and 15k miles per year, plus the increased electricity cost, you will probably save around $5k over 4 years. You can take a $5k reduction in resale to make it a wash, which doesn't seem unreasonable. If so, that means you saved nothing with increased MPG by driving an EV.

Agreed. The original point made was the electrical demand per household could double and that does not seem ridiculous and could indeed be on the low end in some cases and admittedly the high end in other cases . The incremental demand on electrical infrastructure looks to be quite significant .

Another point tho, most of the charging would probably be at night in lower demand periods.

Marcus Brutus said:

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MapGuy said:

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Marcus Brutus said:

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MapGuy said:

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mccjames said:

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Now tell me the cost to replace batteries and what is their lifespan?

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10 years 100k warranty on the battery, I don't keep vehicles that long so won't be an issue

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But if the battery capacity dramatically drops and the expected lifetime is about 10 years, you will trade or resale for a whole lot less than an ICE vehicle.

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The battery capacity and performance on the vehicle I just ordered is guaranteed for 10 years or 100k, so far as resale or trade in, this may sound uppity, but that isn't factoring into my decision. We are getting $6,500 trade in on the ICE Civic, plus the $7,500 tax credit, makes a vehicle I may not have spent the money on originally seem like a better deal for the reason I listed earlier in the thread. The trade in value and resale will be more than offset by 85 mpg during the lifetime of the vehicle,while we own it

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Probably not. I did some rough arithmetic. At $4/gl, and 15k miles per year, plus the increased electricity cost, you will probably save around $5k over 4 years. You can take a $5k reduction in resale to make it a wash, which doesn't seem unreasonable. If so, that means you saved nothing with increased MPG by driving an EV.

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That's $5k I save and can invest and accrue interest on. And I'm not at $4 a gallon but due to the visitation requirements I previously mentioned for foster kids am way over 15k miles a year. Plus my utilities in Missouri are far less than my cousin in Maryland that commutes to Baltimore daily that says his power bill increase was minuscule

Watermelon Man said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Still need significant electrical infrastructure improvements to meet the future demands. Every EV is the equivalent of adding another house to the electrical grid. Charging a Model3 to 80% on a Tesla Supercharger consumes the same amount of energy that a 2,000sf house typically uses in a day

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Nothing but BS.

We need significant electrical infrastructure improvements regardless. Just the quip that the typical 2000sf house consumes less than a Telsa3 shows that your information is outdated. The average Texas 2000sf house uses more that a Telsa3 charger. Maybe you should review your info sources.

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Knew someone would call BS, but if you charge a EV for 30 min at a rate of 75 kW (which is half the rate of a 150 kW supercharger) you have consumed 37.5 kWh. My own house averages between 30 to 40 kWh daily. Do not need sources when you can do your own math.

This particular conversation was about incremental demand on electrical infrastructure, not the economics of ev versus gasoline . All relevant but separate discussions on same thread.

There have been a handful of
Months where I have paid over $500 for electricity. not many but my house is pretty big and have had as may as 5 living here at one time with 5 vehicles sometimes so it's not the same comparison at all. I could see how an ev could be cheaper o & m than an ic powered car until you get to battery replacement time.

tk for tu juan said:

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Watermelon Man said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Still need significant electrical infrastructure improvements to meet the future demands. Every EV is the equivalent of adding another house to the electrical grid. Charging a Model3 to 80% on a Tesla Supercharger consumes the same amount of energy that a 2,000sf house typically uses in a day

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Nothing but BS.

We need significant electrical infrastructure improvements regardless. Just the quip that the typical 2000sf house consumes less than a Telsa3 shows that your information is outdated. The average Texas 2000sf house uses more that a Telsa3 charger. Maybe you should review your info sources.

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Knew someone would call BS, but if you charge a EV for 30 min at a rate of 75 kW (which is half the rate of a 150 kW supercharger) you have consumed 37.5 kWh. My own house averages between 30 to 40 kWh daily. Do not need sources when you can do your own math.

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And you are ignoring the fact vehicles have the ability recharge the battery while not plugged in

MapGuy said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Watermelon Man said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Still need significant electrical infrastructure improvements to meet the future demands. Every EV is the equivalent of adding another house to the electrical grid. Charging a Model3 to 80% on a Tesla Supercharger consumes the same amount of energy that a 2,000sf house typically uses in a day

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Nothing but BS.

We need significant electrical infrastructure improvements regardless. Just the quip that the typical 2000sf house consumes less than a Telsa3 shows that your information is outdated. The average Texas 2000sf house uses more that a Telsa3 charger. Maybe you should review your info sources.

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Knew someone would call BS, but if you charge a EV for 30 min at a rate of 75 kW (which is half the rate of a 150 kW supercharger) you have consumed 37.5 kWh. My own house averages between 30 to 40 kWh daily. Do not need sources when you can do your own math.

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And you are ignoring the fact vehicles have the ability recharge the battery while not plugged in

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In Candyland? Good luck regen braking to a 80% or full charge. Maybe if you drive down Mt Everest

At no point have I made the case for anyone else to go the hybrid route, only speaking on my situation and comparing it to my cousin got the exact same vehicle

I LOVE THESE THREADS

What do you mean by recharging when not plugged in ? Are you referring to regenerative charging by harvesting friction from brakes or something like that?

I think that's already figured in the Tesla numbers when estimating
KWh per mile needed to start tomorrow at the same charge as today. Tesla quotes .34 kwhr per mile. I'd bet that's a net number including regen charging.

And I don't have regen charge to 80% to see savings, also not in Texas and live in the hills of Missouri, like I said at no point have I been making the case for others also not propping up,Tesla's

JSKolache said:

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I LOVE THESE THREADS

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I do too, growing up a car guy and tech geek puts this right at a crossroad for me.

GAC06 said:

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Something like a Tesla outperforms most cars on the road as far as speed and acceleration. They are very quiet. More storage space. You would never need to stop at a gas station again. The car charges at home and is ready every day. You save money on gas, especially now when gas is high. There are theoretical advantages as far as upkeep and maintenance since there are far less moving parts, plus less consumables like oil, oil filter, air filter, fluids.

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My favorite part is the child slave labor to get the materials

The "carbon neutral by 2030" goals are pure fantasy, the war on nuclear is inexplicable, and the left's presentation of EVs as the answer to climate change when most of our power is still generated by hydrocarbons is a real head scratcher. That said, the EV hate and dismissal is equally vexing. I'm sure if we dug up threads from 2010, the same posters would be criticizing the limited range and poor performance of them. Now a good EV travels 300-500 miles on a single charge - enough to make long trips doable with no unnatural stops - and the top of the line ones are flirting with a sub-2-second 0-60. Not only that, research dollars have been flooding into the battery space for several years, so range is likely to grow enormously over the next 5-7.

You're simply ignoring their progress if you think that they won't overtake ICEs in basically every performance category over the next decade or so.

baron_von_awesome said:

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GAC06 said:

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Something like a Tesla outperforms most cars on the road as far as speed and acceleration. They are very quiet. More storage space. You would never need to stop at a gas station again. The car charges at home and is ready every day. You save money on gas, especially now when gas is high. There are theoretical advantages as far as upkeep and maintenance since there are far less moving parts, plus less consumables like oil, oil filter, air filter, fluids.

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My favorite part is the child slave labor to get the materials

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I think a modern Monroney sticker should be required for all BEV's, listing the total quantity of raw materials used/required to construct the battery, an arial view of the 3 primary strip mines with the location of each, which city in China the materials were refined in, the labor rate paid to workers in said facilities, and the estimated battery replacement cost, inclusive of labor.

I love the Ford F-150 Power Boost I bought for my wife. It is fun to drive. But for fuel mileage it has only averaged 16.8 mpg for the three months we have owned it. No 20+ as expected.

tk for tu juan said:

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Watermelon Man said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Still need significant electrical infrastructure improvements to meet the future demands. Every EV is the equivalent of adding another house to the electrical grid. Charging a Model3 to 80% on a Tesla Supercharger consumes the same amount of energy that a 2,000sf house typically uses in a day

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Nothing but BS.

We need significant electrical infrastructure improvements regardless. Just the quip that the typical 2000sf house consumes less than a Telsa3 shows that your information is outdated. The average Texas 2000sf house uses more that a Telsa3 charger. Maybe you should review your info sources.

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Knew someone would call BS, but if you charge a EV for 30 min at a rate of 75 kW (which is half the rate of a 150 kW supercharger) you have consumed 37.5 kWh. My own house averages between 30 to 40 kWh daily. Do not need sources when you can do your own math.

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When you forget variables you might want to let other people do the math, because you're not good at it. The Tesla Model 3 gets 4 miles per kWh. Are you in the habit of driving 150 miles a day (37.5 x 4= 150)? Is your entire house in the habit of doing that? 150x365=54,750 miles a year. That would require 4.5 people to be driving the national average for a driver (12,000x4.5=54,000). The typical household doesn't even have 4.5 people in it (2.6<4.5).

If by some crazy happenstance you are driving that much, you should consider going electric, it would save you around $5,000/yr.

54,000 miles/30mpg = 1800 gallons x 4.00/gal = 7200.
54,000/4 miles/kWh = 13,500 kWh x .18 kWh = $2,430.

People are saying you're wrong, because you are. I did all the math for you so you don't get confused.

Performance is not necessarily the issue in EV's taking a dominant role in the vehicle market . It's the whole picture. Upfront expense of the vehicles which I
Admit will probably come
Down , electrical infrastructure upgrades, power gen upgrades , the problems with manufacturing and disposal of the batteries are all going to take time and $ to get there .

Not that but I have driven 500 miles stopped to pick up some food and kept driving. Not a full 500 but maybe 200 or so. What's your point? Until charging can get faster it's not going to take over the US no matter what some people want.

Also how many times have you forgot to plug your phone in? What happens when someone drives 300 or so miles and forgets to plug in and they need to drive the next day? Now you can fill up in minutes.

hph6203 said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Watermelon Man said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Still need significant electrical infrastructure improvements to meet the future demands. Every EV is the equivalent of adding another house to the electrical grid. Charging a Model3 to 80% on a Tesla Supercharger consumes the same amount of energy that a 2,000sf house typically uses in a day

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Nothing but BS.

We need significant electrical infrastructure improvements regardless. Just the quip that the typical 2000sf house consumes less than a Telsa3 shows that your information is outdated. The average Texas 2000sf house uses more that a Telsa3 charger. Maybe you should review your info sources.

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Knew someone would call BS, but if you charge a EV for 30 min at a rate of 75 kW (which is half the rate of a 150 kW supercharger) you have consumed 37.5 kWh. My own house averages between 30 to 40 kWh daily. Do not need sources when you can do your own math.

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When you forget variables you might want to let other people do the math, because you're not good at it. The Tesla Model 3 gets 4 miles per kWh. Are you in the habit of driving 150 miles a day (37.5 x 4= 150)? Is your entire house in the habit of doing that? 150x365=54,750 miles a year. That would require 4.5 people to be driving the national average for a driver (12,000x4.5=54,000). The typical household doesn't even have 4.5 people in it (2.6<4.5).

If by some crazy happenstance you are driving that much, you should consider going electric, it would save you around $5,000/yr.

54,000 miles/30mpg = 1800 gallons x 4.00/gal = 7200.
54,000/4 miles/kWh = 13,500 kWh x .18 kWh = $2,430.

People are saying you're wrong, because you are. I did all the math for you so you don't get confused.

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I didn't say the EV was getting charged everyday, just that is equivalent to adding a house to the grid when it is charging. Nice rant and insult, but stepping back and realizing what I said could have saved you the time.