Yes, policy can cause broad issues. Using edge case arguments for a basis of comparison is bad arguing. The fact that California has ******ed energy policies and is trying to hope their way to the future today isn't an argument against electric vehicles, it's an argument against California politicians.

Oil is a limited resource, it's not limited in the near term, it's limited in the long term, electricity does not exist on that same line of constraint.

When you say "I'll never buy an electric vehicle." What you mean is that you'll never buy the present electric vehicles, but you wouldn't buy a gas vehicle from the 1970's today outside of it being a showpiece/collectors item, it is not a practical purchase. In 20 years electrical vehicles are going to be far superior to any gas vehicle for 99% of use cases, and far superior to present day electric vehicles.

Don't buy an electric vehicle.

I'll be dead before 20 years is up. So you have fun in that brave new world. Maybe people will have pulled their heads out of their butts enough to address the shortcomings and issues by then.

hph6203 said:

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Yes, policy can cause broad issues. Using edge case arguments for a basis of comparison is bad arguing. The fact that California has ******ed energy policies and is trying to hope their way to the future today isn't an argument against electric vehicles, it's an argument against California politicians.

Oil is a limited resource, it's not limited in the near term, it's limited in the long term, electricity does not exist on that same line of constraint.

When you say "I'll never buy an electric vehicle." What you mean is that you'll never buy the present electric vehicles, but you wouldn't buy a gas vehicle from the 1970's today outside of it being a showpiece/collectors item, it is not a practical purchase. In 20 years electrical vehicles are going to be far superior to any gas vehicle for 99% of use cases, and far superior to present day electric vehicles.

Don't buy an electric vehicle.

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Genuinely curious how someone can make this claim when there is no way that could be known.

We are 2-3 years away from solid state battery that will replace lithium ions. SSB supposed to double the range and takes less than 10 min to charge. I will gladly take a hybrid/SSB plug in with a combined range of 800+ miles. Toyota is supposed to release a SSB car by 2025.

hph6203 said:

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Yes, policy can cause broad issues. Using edge case arguments for a basis of comparison is bad arguing. The fact that California has ******ed energy policies and is trying to hope their way to the future today isn't an argument against electric vehicles, it's an argument against California politicians.

Oil is a limited resource, it's not limited in the near term, it's limited in the long term, electricity does not exist on that same line of constraint.

When you say "I'll never buy an electric vehicle." What you mean is that you'll never buy the present electric vehicles, but you wouldn't buy a gas vehicle from the 1970's today outside of it being a showpiece/collectors item, it is not a practical purchase. In 20 years electrical vehicles are going to be far superior to any gas vehicle for 99% of use cases, and far superior to present day electric vehicles.

Don't buy an electric vehicle.

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60% of electricity in the US comes from hydrocarbons. Your statement about electricity not being limited is not true because the basis for it is limited. Nobody driving the move towards EVs because of climate change will accept more nuclear, so that's out.

You act like anyone who pushes back in your numbers is anti EV. I don't care if people buy EVs or not. But I'm tired of the misinformation being dissiminated by the left and the mandates. They don't seem to be backed by science and physics.

Your hope that EVs will be better than ICE in the future for most use cases is Pollyannish. Hope is not a strategy.

AggieDruggist89 said:

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We are 2-3 years away from solid state battery that will replace lithium ions. SSB supposed to double the range and takes less than 10 min to charge. I will gladly take a hybrid/SSB plug in with a combined range of 800+ miles. Toyota is supposed to release a SSB car by 2025.

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LOL...

"Better batteries are required with higher energy density, safer, and lower costs, and solid-state batteries should in theory be the key. These lithium-metal batteries use solid electrodes and a solid electrolyte and promise to push the boundaries. The problem is that this technology is still experimental. Solid-state batteries have an inherent chemical flaw. They degrade fast after a number of charge-discharge cycles due to the accumulation of lithium dendrites thin, twig-like pieces of lithium that multiply and can pierce the battery, causing short circuits and other problems. "

The reality is EV vehicles aren't practical now, much like cars were practical for most people in the early 1900s.

But gas powered vehicles future is limited. Pollution is an issue and more so, oil is a finite quantity. We don't need to go full loony like California, but the US should make a point to be the leading researcher in EV vehicles, planes, fusion power, etc.

Marcus Brutus said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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We are 2-3 years away from solid state battery that will replace lithium ions. SSB supposed to double the range and takes less than 10 min to charge. I will gladly take a hybrid/SSB plug in with a combined range of 800+ miles. Toyota is supposed to release a SSB car by 2025.

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LOL...

"Better batteries are required with higher energy density, safer, and lower costs, and solid-state batteries should in theory be the key. These lithium-metal batteries use solid electrodes and a solid electrolyte and promise to push the boundaries. The problem is that this technology is still experimental. Solid-state batteries have an inherent chemical flaw. They degrade fast after a number of charge-discharge cycles due to the accumulation of lithium dendrites thin, twig-like pieces of lithium that multiply and can pierce the battery, causing short circuits and other problems. "

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It's so experimental that we've been using SSB for decades in pacemakers.....

Shhh, technology stagnates, that's its nature.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38711469/toyota-solid-state-batteries-2025/

I don't know... Toyota seems to think they can. Experimental or not. And you have major automakers all heavily invested in SSB... So maybe you ought to tell them it's futile... Dendrite and all.

I'm of the opinion the folks stating they would never buy one and do all they can to argue against others buying them are just as delusional as the extreme left saying we all need be electric or we all die in 10 years.

Accurate. Electric is the future, but the future is 15 years away. Some people will pay for it now.

For the road trips that do not involve towing something, Tesla is not far behind on the road trip experience because their charging network is ahead of everyone else.

AggieDruggist89 said:

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Marcus Brutus said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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We are 2-3 years away from solid state battery that will replace lithium ions. SSB supposed to double the range and takes less than 10 min to charge. I will gladly take a hybrid/SSB plug in with a combined range of 800+ miles. Toyota is supposed to release a SSB car by 2025.

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LOL...

"Better batteries are required with higher energy density, safer, and lower costs, and solid-state batteries should in theory be the key. These lithium-metal batteries use solid electrodes and a solid electrolyte and promise to push the boundaries. The problem is that this technology is still experimental. Solid-state batteries have an inherent chemical flaw. They degrade fast after a number of charge-discharge cycles due to the accumulation of lithium dendrites thin, twig-like pieces of lithium that multiply and can pierce the battery, causing short circuits and other problems. "

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It's so experimental that we've been using SSB for decades in pacemakers.....

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Feel like there could be some issues with orders of magnitude scale with your analogy...

MapGuy said:

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I'm of the opinion the folks stating they would never buy one and do all they can to argue against others buying them are just as delusional as the extreme left saying we all need be electric or we all die in 10 years.

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Who the hell is arguing against other people buying them? Live in Cali, want to buy one knowing during summer recharging might be a problem? Or using diesel generators to fuel charging stations?

Knock yourself out. Buy them until you are blue!

Just don't tell me I have to buy them.

aggiehawg said:

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MapGuy said:

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I'm of the opinion the folks stating they would never buy one and do all they can to argue against others buying them are just as delusional as the extreme left saying we all need be electric or we all die in 10 years.

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Who the hell is arguing against other people buying them? Live in Cali, want to buy one knowing during summer recharging might be a problem? Or using diesel generators to fuel charging stations?

Knock yourself out. Buy them until you are blue!

Just don't tell me I have to buy them.

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MapGuy said:

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aggiehawg said:

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MapGuy said:

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I'm of the opinion the folks stating they would never buy one and do all they can to argue against others buying them are just as delusional as the extreme left saying we all need be electric or we all die in 10 years.

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Who the hell is arguing against other people buying them? Live in Cali, want to buy one knowing during summer recharging might be a problem? Or using diesel generators to fuel charging stations?

Knock yourself out. Buy them until you are blue!

Just don't tell me I have to buy them.

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Don't tell me I have to buy them is funny to you?

Why?

94AGBQ said:

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I'll buy an electric car when I can get 500 miles on a full charge and it only takes 10 minutes to charge completely at a station when I'm on the road.

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The record is over 600 miles. However, that's done by doing everything they can to get the maximum miles on the charge including driving at slow speeds.

If you want 500 miles on a full charge at regular highways speeds, we aren't there yet.

When I was a kid, I read about some efforts to set miles per gallon records on gasoline powered vehicles. If I remember correctly, they used a very light, custom designed vehicle driven at about 20 mph on a route that was as flat as possible. Also, if the wind was from the wrong direction, they would not run that day. As I remember it, the records were like 200 mpg or better.

If the economics was there, I wouldn't mind an electric vehicle for local driving, but I'd sure want internal combustion engine for longer differences.

By the way, when I was a kid, we ran our pickups on butane. I don't guess anyone does that now. There are vehicles that use natural gas.

hph6203 said:

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Accurate. Electric is the future, but the future is 15 years away. Some people will pay for it now.

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I am glad people are willing to fork over the money now so eventually the MSRP falls into range were the upfront cost matches the ICE alternative

GAC06 said:

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94AGBQ said:

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I'll buy an electric car when I can get 500 miles on a full charge and it only takes 10 minutes to charge completely at a station when I'm on the road.

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My car could do maybe 375 miles without stopping (all highway). How many times have you travelled 500 miles, stopped for ten minutes, then travelled another 500 miles?

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I routinely get about 450 to 470 miles on a tank of gas in my Taurus, but that is driving slower than the speed limit. At normal highway speeds, I think that would be closer to 400 miles on a tank of gas.

In that video he talks about companies that are unsuccessful, comically so, what's not said is that the person who made that video drives a Model S Plaid as his daily driver. Tesla is the only company I will co-sign as an EV, but that is a proof of concept. The industry can move that way, thus far it has sucked at doing it.

Your entire take was

MapGuy said:

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Your entire take was

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That it would not work for me?

You are a troll.

Bye.

ETA: You are on permanent ignore. In case you have not figured that out.

Dude, I didn't bring any of that stuff up in my post, nor in my response to you. I didn't tell you or anyone else they had to buy one, didn't bring up the grid, California or anything else you were yelling at the clouds about, you are just arguing to argue and it is funny.

I don't think OP is wrong . I don't really believe EV's will be the dominant player for personal vehicles for at least 20 yrs if ever. Major technological changes are going to continue to be market driven rather than edict driven. The globalists hiding behind the green movement will try but they will only succeed if the tech advances and makes it a market driven change.

What's going to power massive generators, bulldozers, excavators, road and construction equipment, mining, dredging, etc.? Farming equipment? When elect cars are mandated and gasoline is getting more penalized, why will o&g companies continue to produce stock for a greatly reduced market? Seems like a cascading apocalypse.

Imo, the politics are going to ebb and flow like they always do and mandates will not happen. Will have a much better feel for it in November but that's the way I think the wind is blowing .

Anybody ever have a class at A&M taught by Jim Dozier? He was the crustiest SOB you could ever meet. Used to get on these rants about not caring how expensive gasoline became because he could afford it and expensive gas would keep us snot nosed students off the road. I think about him a lot lately.

halfastros81 said:

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I don't think OP is wrong . I don't really believe EV's will be the dominant player for personal vehicles for at least 20 yrs if ever. Major technological changes are going to continue to be market driven rather than edict driven. The globalists hiding behind the green movement will try but they will only succeed if the tech advances and makes it a market driven change.

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Edits are weird.

I think the OP is wrong. EVs are a dominant player for personal vehicles today, and their market share is growing. The tech advances will follow investment, which is why government incentives are working to get us there. The reason ICE vehicles don't face the obstacles that EV does is the market forces favor ICE. When the market forces favor the EV, nobody is going to want to maintain their own heat engine.

Watermelon Man said:

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halfastros81 said:

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I don't think OP is wrong . I don't really believe EV's will be the dominant player for personal vehicles for at least 20 yrs if ever. Major technological changes are going to continue to be market driven rather than edict driven. The globalists hiding behind the green movement will try but they will only succeed if the tech advances and makes it a market driven change.

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Edits are weird.

I think the OP is wrong. EVs are a dominant player for personal vehicles today, and their market share is growing. The tech advances will follow investment, which is why government incentives are working to get us there. The reason ICE vehicles don't face the obstacles that EV does is the market forces favor ICE. When the market forces favor the EV, nobody is going to want to maintain their own heat engine.

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That's some really dumb *****

EVs are dominant players?

GAC06 said:

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You are wrong because battery tech has already advanced significantly from the stuff you mentioned. But the good news is no one is forcing you to buy an EV.

You mentioned a ranch so it may not be a great fit for you. For people that live in cities (most people) EV's offer significant advantages over ICE vehicles

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This. I don't get the majority on here that are talking out their rears. For some people it doesn't work. I commute from Austin to San Antonio every week. Plug in when I get there, and charge at home as needed. Going on 4 years with my Tesla. No issues. Would I pull a trailer with it? Hell no. But for commuting it's fine.

Still need significant electrical infrastructure improvements to meet the future demands. Every EV is the equivalent of adding another house to the electrical grid. Charging a Model3 to 80% on a Tesla Supercharger consumes the same amount of energy that a 2,000sf house typically uses in a day