I will never buy an electric powered vehicle.

526,431 Views | 7787 Replies | Last: 29 days ago by techno-ag
slaughtr
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AG
JayM said:

I have a Lightning.
I drove a Lightening the other day. Man, that thing was quick.
Get Off My Lawn
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JayM said:

I see a lot of Teslas out there. I've never seen one on fire.
"I've been in the ocean weekly for my whole life and never witnessed an attack!" - every post-shark-attack interviewee.
techno-ag
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JayM said:

I see a lot of Teslas out there. I've never seen one on fire.
Here ya go buddy.







Trump will fix it.
Kansas Kid
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EV fires are like fatal plane crashes, you hear about them even if they are on the other side of the country while you frequently don't even hear about fatal ones in your home town.

I will grant you an EV fire is spectacular but as this chart shows it is very rare compared to fires from gas and hybrid cars.

techno-ag
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Kansas Kid said:

EV fires are like fatal plane crashes, you hear about them even if they are on the other side of the country while you frequently don't even hear about fatal ones in your home town.

I will grant you an EV fire is spectacular but as this chart shows it is very rare compared to fires from gas and hybrid cars.


The chart is misleading. We've had internal combustion cars for over 100 years, so yeah there's going to be a lot more fires on the record over time.
Trump will fix it.
txaggieacct85
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AG
Does "the hubs" know you call him "the hubs".
tk for tu juan
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https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires

Quote:

The Swedish authorities, however, are keeping track. The Myndigheten för Samhllsskydd och Beredskap (MSB, or Authority for Social Protection and Preparedness) recently released the first report of its kind specifically tracking EV fires in Sweden and comparing them to combustion-powered vehicle fires and the results are clear: EVs are much less likely to catch fire.

Per the MSB, just 29 EVs and 52 hybrids caught fire in Sweden between 2018 and 2022. On average, 16 vehicles powered by batteries (EVs and hybrids combined) catch fire there each year. On average, 3,400 passenger vehicles catch fire each year in Sweden, meaning EVs account for 0.4 percent of all passenger vehicle fires there annually. Hybrids account for 1.5 percent, for a combined total of 1.9 percent of all passenger vehicle fires.

Put another way, gas- and diesel-powered cars account for 98.1 percent of all passenger vehicle fires in Sweden each year on average.
Aggie Apotheosis
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slaughtr said:

JayM said:

I have a Lightning.
I drove a Lightening the other day. Man, that thing was quick.


I am an old car guy who was very skeptical about EVs for a long time. All it took was one drive in a Tesla and it was a come to Jesus moment for me. I like fast and quiet.
slaughtr
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Aggie Apotheosis said:

slaughtr said:

JayM said:

I have a Lightning.
I drove a Lightening the other day. Man, that thing was quick.


I am an old car guy who was very skeptical about EVs for a long time. All it took was one drive in a Tesla and it was a come to Jesus moment for me. I like fast and quiet.
Ditto myself. I have had just about every car you can think of. I've enjoyed years of track days and autocross. Mostly in my supercharged Lotus Elise. Still look forward to my next ICE purchase. But to jump onto the freeway and shoot between cars in the blink of an eye on my commute to work and back, nothing beats my EV.
hph6203
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tk for tu juan said:

https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires

Quote:

The Swedish authorities, however, are keeping track. The Myndigheten för Samhllsskydd och Beredskap (MSB, or Authority for Social Protection and Preparedness) recently released the first report of its kind specifically tracking EV fires in Sweden and comparing them to combustion-powered vehicle fires and the results are clear: EVs are much less likely to catch fire.

Per the MSB, just 29 EVs and 52 hybrids caught fire in Sweden between 2018 and 2022. On average, 16 vehicles powered by batteries (EVs and hybrids combined) catch fire there each year. On average, 3,400 passenger vehicles catch fire each year in Sweden, meaning EVs account for 0.4 percent of all passenger vehicle fires there annually. Hybrids account for 1.5 percent, for a combined total of 1.9 percent of all passenger vehicle fires.

Put another way, gas- and diesel-powered cars account for 98.1 percent of all passenger vehicle fires in Sweden each year on average.



Relevant:
Quote:

According to MSB data, there are nearly 611,000 EVs and hybrids in Sweden as of 2022. With an average of 16 EV and hybrid fires per year, there's a 1 in 38,000 chance of fire. There are a total of roughly 4.4 million gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles in Sweden, with an average of 3,384 fires per year, for a 1 in 1,300 chance of fire. That means gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles are 29 times more likely to catch fire than EVs and hybrids.


and

Quote:

In fact, the analysis shows older cars are far and away the most likely to catch fire and the risk of fire increases the older a car gets. A total of 77 percent of all car fires that occurred in 2017 involved vehicles made in 2007 or earlier, so those at least 10 years old or older. The original Tesla Roadster didn't come out until 2008, and only 2,500 of those were built. The first mass-market EV, the Nissan Leaf, wasn't released until 2010. Only the earliest modern EVs, of which very few were sold, are 10 years old today. The NFPA report cites worn-out parts and deferred maintenance as the likely cause of increased fire danger for older cars.


While I think that in 20-30 years it will be obvious that EVs cause fewer fires, and that the rates of fires will actually drop over the next 20-30 years due to better technology it's too early to say how different the rates are.
.
Kansas Kid
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That data was for fires only in 2021 and not life to date. I will agree it is skewed some based on the average age of cars on the road but look at the absolute number of fires. EVs are rare and it makes sense because when ICEs get in accidents you have gasoline/diesel and oil that all can easily catch fire. You also get a lot of engine fires from oil leaking onto headers and the engine block.
cbr
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i hate EV's for lots of reasons, though i understand them better than most people and understand ICE vehicles better than almost anyone not devoting their entire career to them.

i recognize that for short burst performance, the low CG, lack of power pulses at the tires, assist of regen braking, etc., make them pretty surprisingly fast street tire, non prep drag cars, as well as good autocross cars, if you can keep them charged.

I also recognize that they are quiet.

I also recognize that if you are a yuppy that tools around in a limited, urban range, and has a normal routine schedule, and only normal yuppy needs and uses, and hopes to never have a crisis, disaster, event, or anything unusual in life, and believes that government and electric power will be reliable and benevolent, that maybe EV's might make sense for you.

My issue is with macro infrastructure. Everything about transitioning to EV's is destructive of everything good in the world. It really is that simple.

free, reliable, independent, robust, disbursed, efficient, sustainable access to power and transportation is the best thing that ever happened to mankind and this transition destroys it all.
tk for tu juan
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Correct, it will be interesting to see what happens to the overall rate of fires as the average EV age increases.

The risk of thermal runaway at least decreases as more LFP packs are developed and used in the base models. Their energy densities are getting closer to the NCM packs.

https://one.ai/aries-ii-6percent
hph6203
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AG
CATL announced a LFP battery that can charge to 80% (~250 miles) in 10 minutes today.
.
FCBlitz
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hph6203 said:

CATL announced a LFP battery that can charge to 80% (~250 miles) in 10 minutes today.


What's is the kW on that Charger?
FCBlitz
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There is lots of cheerleading and hopefulness about EV and their batteries on this thread. I am waiting on a white paper to be published that simply discusses the implication of what causes battery fires. Those conditions are out of spec charging stations and components. The battery after market industry to supply batteries is 30 years behind. There are very little codes and standards that exist to ensure that after market batteries, EV chargers and EV charger components are built to meet certain standards. There will be fires. There will be spectacular fires of while parking garages going up in flames when there is a density of EV on the road.

This is all undeniable. The safety rate for now is low. No one disputes that. But when one battery catches fire, and as that batter cell capacity increases they will burn longer and unless the flaming car is dunked in a roll off box of water the car will burn up to three days.

Anything that throw a cutting torch flame out 10ft long, from a foot off the ground and is sitting in a crowded airport parking (I.e.) is just not going to end well.
nortex97
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AG
Yes.



Good reminder that the Chinese are all-in on this. Another political reason I am not.

Quote:

CATL claims its sodium-ion batteries are commercially viable because they address previous materials issues. The cathode uses Prussian White material modified by rearranging electrons, solving a previous problem of rapid capacity fading after material cycling. The anode is made from a hard-carbon material, which is porous, allowing for greater storage and fast movement of sodium ions, the company claims.
While interesting in geek-speak, sodium in my limited experience is not likely to prove to be such a great replacement in reality, in a liquid electrolyte battery. It tends to be…a bit corrosive.
slaughtr
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cbr said:

i hate EV's for lots of reasons, though i understand them better than most people and understand ICE vehicles better than almost anyone not devoting their entire career to them.

i recognize that for short burst performance, the low CG, lack of power pulses at the tires, assist of regen braking, etc., make them pretty surprisingly fast street tire, non prep drag cars, as well as good autocross cars, if you can keep them charged.

I also recognize that they are quiet.

I also recognize that if you are a yuppy that tools around in a limited, urban range, and has a normal routine schedule, and only normal yuppy needs and uses, and hopes to never have a crisis, disaster, event, or anything unusual in life, and believes that government and electric power will be reliable and benevolent, that maybe EV's might make sense for you.

My issue is with macro infrastructure. Everything about transitioning to EV's is destructive of everything good in the world. It really is that simple.

free, reliable, independent, robust, disbursed, efficient, sustainable access to power and transportation is the best thing that ever happened to mankind and this transition destroys it all.

I bet you're fun at parties.
RoyVal
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FCBlitz said:

The battery after market industry to supply batteries is 30 years behind. There are very little codes and standards that exist to ensure that after market batteries, EV chargers and EV charger components are built to meet certain standards. There will be fires. There will be spectacular fires of while parking garages going up in flames when there is a density of EV on the road.

This is all undeniable. The safety rate for now is low. No one disputes that. But when one battery catches fire, and as that batter cell capacity increases they will burn longer and unless the flaming car is dunked in a roll off box of water the car will burn up to three days.


what?

LMAO!
hph6203
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That battery announcement is from 2 years ago. Yesterday's announcement was about an LFP battery, not sodium battery. Those sodium batteries aren't going to be put into vehicles in the U.S. any time soon, they're being deployed in vehicles, with sub 200 mile ranges, in China to reduce costs. BYD is launching their Seagull model this year with a range, after conversion from CLTC to EPA, of about 150 miles. They're selling that vehicle for around $11,000. That kind of vehicle may make it to the U.S. eventually, but I don't see it happening any time soon. We will probably see sodium batteries deployed in grid and residential storage where the energy density and battery retention do not matter nearly as much.
.
hph6203
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Not really sure what he means by aftermarket batteries as I'm not aware of much going on in that space, but the EV charger market does need to set standards of practice. The primary issue, as far as I understand, is that people are using dryer outlets for duty cycles that they are not designed for, causing heat and fires. It's a resolvable issue. As of now, if you get an EV, get a direct wire charger rather than using the mobile connectors to stay on the safe side.

.
RoyVal
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hph6203 said:

Not really sure what he means by aftermarket batteries as I'm not aware of much going on in that space, but the EV charger market does need to set standards of practice. The primary issue, as far as I understand, is that people are using dryer outlets for duty cycles that they are not designed for, causing heat and fires. It's a resolvable issue. As of now, if you get an EV, get a direct wire charger rather than using the mobile connectors to stay on the safe side.


I wonder if there are ever any fires during Christmas time with people stringing together to many lights or multiple extension orders or power strips or .....................

people do dumb **** with electrical all the time....don't put this on EV folks LOL.

But that being said...there are no problems plugging in a Tesla into a 220v dryer outlet or using mobile connectors. The problem is when a moron that doesn't know anything about electrical, ADDS a 220 charger/outlet off an existing circuit......then you have problems.
munch96
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https://www.thedrive.com/news/ford-ceo-road-trips-f-150-lightning-and-gets-ev-charging-reality-check

Quote:

Recently, Farley decided to take the Lightning on a road trip on Route 66. The idea was to take on more rural routes in a trucka truck "for real people who do real work," according to Farley. And as it turns out, the CEO's experiment was a real eye opener about how real people in the real world drive their pickups, and what it would take to live with Ford's newest electrified product in a less-populated area.

"Charging has been pretty challenging," Farley said during a short video posted on Twitter. "It was a really good reality check of the challenges our customers go through, and the importance of fast-charging."
Farley was specifically referring to his recent charging experience where he had to use a "low-speed" charger at a popular charging location near the Harris Ranch Inn in Coalinga, California.

Specifically, Farley chose a lower speed charger because it was the first available one he was able to plug into the F-150, due to all of the fast chargers being occupied. The truck spent 40 minutes at the station only to receive a 40% charge. As one might imagine, that isn't ideal for someone taking a road trip on one of America's most well-known tourist highways.
JayM
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I don't take my Lightning on cross country trips. I have no problem driving 200 miles to Austin though.
FCBlitz
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RoyVal said:

FCBlitz said:

The battery after market industry to supply batteries is 30 years behind. There are very little codes and standards that exist to ensure that after market batteries, EV chargers and EV charger components are built to meet certain standards. There will be fires. There will be spectacular fires of while parking garages going up in flames when there is a density of EV on the road.

This is all undeniable. The safety rate for now is low. No one disputes that. But when one battery catches fire, and as that batter cell capacity increases they will burn longer and unless the flaming car is dunked in a roll off box of water the car will burn up to three days.


what?

LMAO!


When you are done laughing…..quote me all of the different UFC, IEEE, NEC, NFPA, UL and all of the standards that the changing components are to be made too.

Engineering standards have all been developed over time usually to death and destruction of some system. Boilers, pressure vessels, MCC, cabling…..what ever the system.

The battery (mostly pouch technology) is particular to its standard charging station and cords. This can be a reason why smart phones burst into flames because the original cord has been replaced with an after market made to some very general spec's. At least there are SOME standards

So let's go from a smart phone to your lovely, ever so safe EV. Without developed standards for battery design, material used, charging voltages …..the biggest impacts here will be a flurry of after market batteries that will come from various countries. I am not talking a standard TESLA Battery…..talking about after market products. With no standards there will be deviations.

Now including that safe TESLA and all of the other aftermarket batteries now you are driving up and using different charging station. They will be varying kW to start with. Different control boards and charging components. What you have is a situation that is similar to IPhones and skateboards and bikes except these batteries will have a 10ft blow torch.

If I am full of shat then what you will not see is bans on EV chargers in apartment parking garages, that government supplied charging stations will be located a charging hubs and a whole host of unknown outcomes due to the small number of EV's. Wait till we are at 25%.
techno-ag
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munch96 said:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/ford-ceo-road-trips-f-150-lightning-and-gets-ev-charging-reality-check

Quote:

Recently, Farley decided to take the Lightning on a road trip on Route 66. The idea was to take on more rural routes in a trucka truck "for real people who do real work," according to Farley. And as it turns out, the CEO's experiment was a real eye opener about how real people in the real world drive their pickups, and what it would take to live with Ford's newest electrified product in a less-populated area.

"Charging has been pretty challenging," Farley said during a short video posted on Twitter. "It was a really good reality check of the challenges our customers go through, and the importance of fast-charging."
Farley was specifically referring to his recent charging experience where he had to use a "low-speed" charger at a popular charging location near the Harris Ranch Inn in Coalinga, California.

Specifically, Farley chose a lower speed charger because it was the first available one he was able to plug into the F-150, due to all of the fast chargers being occupied. The truck spent 40 minutes at the station only to receive a 40% charge. As one might imagine, that isn't ideal for someone taking a road trip on one of America's most well-known tourist highways.

Wow. Devastating.
Trump will fix it.
bmks270
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AG
FCBlitz said:

RoyVal said:

FCBlitz said:

The battery after market industry to supply batteries is 30 years behind. There are very little codes and standards that exist to ensure that after market batteries, EV chargers and EV charger components are built to meet certain standards. There will be fires. There will be spectacular fires of while parking garages going up in flames when there is a density of EV on the road.

This is all undeniable. The safety rate for now is low. No one disputes that. But when one battery catches fire, and as that batter cell capacity increases they will burn longer and unless the flaming car is dunked in a roll off box of water the car will burn up to three days.


what?

LMAO!


When you are done laughing…..quote me all of the different UFC, IEEE, NEC, NFPA, UL and all of the standards that the changing components are to be made too.

Engineering standards have all been developed over time usually to death and destruction of some system. Boilers, pressure vessels, MCC, cabling…..what ever the system.

The battery (mostly pouch technology) is particular to its standard charging station and cords. This can be a reason why smart phones burst into flames because the original cord has been replaced with an after market made to some very general spec's. At least there are SOME standards

So let's go from a smart phone to your lovely, ever so safe EV. Without developed standards for battery design, material used, charging voltages …..the biggest impacts here will be a flurry of after market batteries that will come from various countries. I am not talking a standard TESLA Battery…..talking about after market products. With no standards there will be deviations.

Now including that safe TESLA and all of the other aftermarket batteries now you are driving up and using different charging station. They will be varying kW to start with. Different control boards and charging components. What you have is a situation that is similar to IPhones and skateboards and bikes except these batteries will have a 10ft blow torch.

If I am full of shat then what you will not see is bans on EV chargers in apartment parking garages, that government supplied charging stations will be located a charging hubs and a whole host of unknown outcomes due to the small number of EV's. Wait till we are at 25%.



Apartment building parking garages already have EV chargers in some places. My friends apartment building in Los Angeles installed enough to cover every parking space a few months ago (roughly one charger for every two parking spaces).
RoyVal
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AG
FCBlitz said:

RoyVal said:

FCBlitz said:

The battery after market industry to supply batteries is 30 years behind. There are very little codes and standards that exist to ensure that after market batteries, EV chargers and EV charger components are built to meet certain standards. There will be fires. There will be spectacular fires of while parking garages going up in flames when there is a density of EV on the road.

This is all undeniable. The safety rate for now is low. No one disputes that. But when one battery catches fire, and as that batter cell capacity increases they will burn longer and unless the flaming car is dunked in a roll off box of water the car will burn up to three days.


what?

LMAO!




Now including that safe TESLA and all of the other aftermarket batteries now you are driving up and using different charging station. They will be varying kW to start with. Different control boards and charging components. What you have is a situation that is similar to IPhones and skateboards and bikes except these batteries will have a 10ft blow torch.


bro WTF are you even talking about? LMAO.....
FCBlitz
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bmks270 said:

FCBlitz said:

RoyVal said:

FCBlitz said:

The battery after market industry to supply batteries is 30 years behind. There are very little codes and standards that exist to ensure that after market batteries, EV chargers and EV charger components are built to meet certain standards. There will be fires. There will be spectacular fires of while parking garages going up in flames when there is a density of EV on the road.

This is all undeniable. The safety rate for now is low. No one disputes that. But when one battery catches fire, and as that batter cell capacity increases they will burn longer and unless the flaming car is dunked in a roll off box of water the car will burn up to three days.


what?

LMAO!


When you are done laughing…..quote me all of the different UFC, IEEE, NEC, NFPA, UL and all of the standards that the changing components are to be made too.

Engineering standards have all been developed over time usually to death and destruction of some system. Boilers, pressure vessels, MCC, cabling…..what ever the system.

The battery (mostly pouch technology) is particular to its standard charging station and cords. This can be a reason why smart phones burst into flames because the original cord has been replaced with an after market made to some very general spec's. At least there are SOME standards

So let's go from a smart phone to your lovely, ever so safe EV. Without developed standards for battery design, material used, charging voltages …..the biggest impacts here will be a flurry of after market batteries that will come from various countries. I am not talking a standard TESLA Battery…..talking about after market products. With no standards there will be deviations.

Now including that safe TESLA and all of the other aftermarket batteries now you are driving up and using different charging station. They will be varying kW to start with. Different control boards and charging components. What you have is a situation that is similar to IPhones and skateboards and bikes except these batteries will have a 10ft blow torch.

If I am full of shat then what you will not see is bans on EV chargers in apartment parking garages, that government supplied charging stations will be located a charging hubs and a whole host of unknown outcomes due to the small number of EV's. Wait till we are at 25%.



Apartment building parking garages already have EV chargers in some places. My friends apartment building in Los Angeles installed enough to cover every parking space a few months ago (roughly one charger for every two parking spaces).


….wait till the first major fire. That will change once the first incident occurs. Remember. The EV % is 1-4% of the market. I am talking about where EV's are more prevalent.

……anyway it is coming. There are enough posts from other folks with photos of fires.

I notice no one is beating me up with existing industrial standard for after market batteries and battery charging components.
FCBlitz
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RoyVal said:

FCBlitz said:

RoyVal said:

FCBlitz said:

The battery after market industry to supply batteries is 30 years behind. There are very little codes and standards that exist to ensure that after market batteries, EV chargers and EV charger components are built to meet certain standards. There will be fires. There will be spectacular fires of while parking garages going up in flames when there is a density of EV on the road.

This is all undeniable. The safety rate for now is low. No one disputes that. But when one battery catches fire, and as that batter cell capacity increases they will burn longer and unless the flaming car is dunked in a roll off box of water the car will burn up to three days.


what?

LMAO!




Now including that safe TESLA and all of the other aftermarket batteries now you are driving up and using different charging station. They will be varying kW to start with. Different control boards and charging components. What you have is a situation that is similar to IPhones and skateboards and bikes except these batteries will have a 10ft blow torch.


bro WTF are you even talking about? LMAO.....


Other from using…..They for there…..it is pretty straight forward. When the future battery and charging components are flooded with aftermarket supply with out guiding spec's……fires will be more frequent.
Teslag
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AG
I love the EV fire boogeyman arguments
P.U.T.U
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AG
There are current battery technologies that can charges several times faster than lithium ion, they just aren't as power dense. I would have to look back at my notes but we have a small lithium titanate pack (in comparison to its power output) that can charge/discharge 1600MW.
Kansas Kid
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Teslag said:

I love the EV fire boogeyman arguments

Look at this spectacular fire. Oh wait, it was an ICE vehicle.

https://www.firerescue1.com/fdny/articles/it-was-like-lava-spectacular-fire-burns-vehicles-damages-homes-in-bronx-p76jZvjjuHImDR11/
FCBlitz
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Links to existing Industry standards and spec's for the production aftermarket battery, EV charging systems and components.

Honestly. It would be a big help in my present job……I have checked with various Fire Marshall's and Fire Protection Engineers who say they are faced with the same challenge……..locating spec's of components.

That little sub didn't adhere to standards and was turned to a crushed can. In spite of all kinds of subs that are in service. It is the lack of standards which is the basis for concern for fire.

TeslaAg. What is TESLAS prescribed method for quenching a fire?
LCE
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AG
Yea. Rode in a Tesla the other day. 25 to 75 in second. Crazy fast.
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