***Russian - Ukraine War Tactical and Strategic Updates*** [Warning on OP]

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Waffledynamics
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Trent Telenko with speculation.

74OA
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Ulysses90
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txags92 said:

Given the lower accuracy and effectiveness of the Russian artillery fire, dropping from a 5:1 advantage in rate of fire to 2 or 3 to 1 will make a noticeable difference at the front.


The accuracy of Russian artillery is probably worth some thought. I haven't been on a gun line since we were using M198 howitzers but those are more similar to the Russian guns than the moderns NATO guns that the Ukrainians are using. For those that don't have experience with cannon artillery of 20th century vintage, here are some things to consider.

Good artillery firing battery operations require strong NCO leadership and vigilance in the best peace time training environment. I can't imagine how difficult it is to maintain after months of continuous combat with heavy attrition and conscripted replacements that didn't get solid training before arriving at the front. Russian gun crews have to be worn out from two years of continuous operations with crappy gear and attrition among their best and most experienced leaders. Their people are a significant weakness.

There are several contributing factors to why Russian artillery capability has gone to crap and it's not a problem they can fix for the foreseeable future.

The Russians have lost a lot of guns, and those are being replaced with older guns that already have had a lifetime worth of training ammo fired through them. There is probably barrel erosion far beyond the point where a tube should be replaced. They are not accurate by modern standards, and they haven't been maintained well. These older guns are also shorter barrel, shorter range models from the 1950s that have to be emplaced closer to the enemy to range them.

The bore and chamber are not the only problems with old guns. The fire control instruments probably fail the "Fire Control Alignment Test" frequently. In the US military, the section chief performs FCA each time the gun is emplaced or at least once a day. The tolerance is 1 mil of angle (IIRC). At this point, the Russians are probably happy if their tolerance is within 5 mils. I suspect that the "give a **** factor" among their surviving veterans and newly trained troops is very low. If they know that there are no replacement clinometers (a.k.a. gunner's quadrants) and collimators that are within tolerance, they probably won't bother to speak up because it won't change anything. Besides, the officers don't know if your gun is passing FCA or not when you pull the lanyard, and the Russians don't have a professional NCO corps.

The next thing that is affecting Russian artillery accuracy is that propellant lot management is probably nonexistent. I wouldn't doubt that newly trained Russian artillerists aren't even taught about it. In western militaries, every unit maintains a propellant logbook in which the battery OpsChief records measured velocities of every propellant lot that they fire along with the date, powder temperature and the number of EFCs (Effective Full-Charge) rounds that have been fired through the tube. If you have never seen that lot number before, you assume that is has the standard velocity from the manufacturing spec. As soon as you begin shooting that lot, you measure, record, and average the muzzle velocities with a muzzle velocity chronograph. It isn't unusual to find that a particular ammo lot will shoot plus or minus 2-4m/s from the standard. That lot to lot variance also changes as a propellant lot ages. With 20 (or 50) year old powder bags, they may be seeing muzzle velocity variance of more 2-4 meters per second from the standard. If they aren't doing muzzle velocity management, they will probably have a range probable error of 50-100 meters from where the projectile is supposed to impact. The Russians probably have no idea how many EFCs have been fired through their pieces at this point.

The US military began replacing old granulated powder bags with solid propellant "Uni-Charge" 20 years ago. Solid propellant increments are less susceptible to lot to lot variance from temperature, humidity, and aging. A lot of the Russian ammo (and North Korean ammo) is probably twice as old as the canonneers shooting it.

Good ammo handling procedures also take care not to store powders in direct sunlight and to measure the temperature of the powder contantly and report it to the Fire Direction Center where it is used to adjust the firing solution. NATO standard velocities are based on an ambient temperature of 70 degrees Fahrenheit. Colder powder temps have a lower velocity, and hotter powder temps have a higher velocity.

Standard ammo handling practice is for powder bags to be stored in vacuum sealed cannisters to prevent variations in humidity, which also have a significant impact on muzzle velocity. Having seen photos of Russian ammo handling practices, I don't believe they pay much attention to handling their powders in a consistent manner to reduce muzzle velocity variance. Their field ammo dumps seem to be hand stacked crates sitting in the open for days or weeks at a time exposed to the elements.

Accuracy for multiple round missions also depends on a good section chief that "takes up displacement" in the elevation and deflection hand wheels on the gun after checking his aiming point on the collimator before firing each round. This is especially important on the first rounds in a new firing position because the dirt behind the spades hasn't yet been packed tightly from the recoil. If the ground is sandy, there may be significant displacement every time the gun is fired.

All of these factors are leadership problems for the Russians that aren't getting any easier.
Waffledynamics
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Do note that Ukraine is also suffering from worn out gun barrels as well as a lack of shells.

Aid needs to flow yesterday. Russia is pushing so hard because of what they see. They will push where there is mush and succeed. Mud season is coming, too.

This is entirely avoidable.
Ag with kids
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DTP02 said:

SouthTex99 said:

74OA said:

Drone wars. Ukraine UAVs repeatedly hit Russian armor hiding inside a warehouse. Wherever it was, it's at the extreme range of those UAVs as they're all displaying "low battery" or "land now" warnings.

HUNTING


These videos are incredibly satisfying to watch. $5,200 in drones taking out tens of millions in Russian military equipment.


And scary. Because we're the 800 pound gorilla in other theaters, with the huge advantage in expensive weapons platforms that are equally vulnerable to the radio shack kamikazes.
The good thing is that the US is the absolute best at Semper Gumby when things like this occur.

Even better when a proxy is feeding us data.
Ag with kids
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Waffledynamics said:

Trent Telenko with speculation.


This kinda thing makes me think that WE have people inserted in theater that are helping them adapt.
PJYoung
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https://www.kyivpost.com/post/28576

Drones took it out last night.

Novolipetsk Iron and Steel Works (NLMK) is the largest enterprise in the Russian Federation and the 17th largest in the world. The plant's products are used in strategically important industries. Steel and alloys from there are used, among other things, for use in the production of munitions, nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles.

TH36
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Didn't see this posted, if it already was..my bad.

First video footage of M1 Abram's in Ukraine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/first-video-us-abrams-in-combat-in-ukraine-fighting-russians-2024-2?amp
MouthBQ98
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Pictures of the battlefields indicate that Russia is far more concerned about volume than accuracy. There are shell crates randomly everywhere, dozens or hundreds of meters scattered either side of anything that would seem to be a target. And craters mean contact fuses, so only near direct or direct hits are doing any damage. Russia must ne using massive amounts of ammunition to relatively little effect in most cases.
74OA
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TH36 said:

Didn't see this posted, if it already was..my bad.

First video footage of M1 Abram's in Ukraine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/first-video-us-abrams-in-combat-in-ukraine-fighting-russians-2024-2?amp
MORE
Tanker123
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74OA said:

TH36 said:

Didn't see this posted, if it already was..my bad.

First video footage of M1 Abram's in Ukraine.

https://www.businessinsider.com/first-video-us-abrams-in-combat-in-ukraine-fighting-russians-2024-2?amp
MORE



That is such a beautiful and lethal machine.
Gordo14
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https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/1ayqozh/polish_minister_of_foreign_affairs_gives_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Tanker123
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Here are some poignant pictures from Ukraine. I feel sorry for them and wish they will win the war. Ukrainians have seen 'unimaginable' horror. Photographers share their stories (cnn.com)
pagerman @ work
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MouthBQ98 said:

Pictures of the battlefields indicate that Russia is far more concerned about volume than accuracy. There are shell crates randomly everywhere, dozens or hundreds of meters scattered either side of anything that would seem to be a target. And craters mean contact fuses, so only near direct or direct hits are doing any damage. Russia must ne using massive amounts of ammunition to relatively little effect in most cases.

I guess sufficient volume has an accuracy of its own.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
lb3
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AtticusMatlock
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More on the plane shoot down. Russians claiming it was an accidental fire from one of their own batteries. However, Ukraine claims responsibility.




Tanker123
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pagerman @ work said:

MouthBQ98 said:

Pictures of the battlefields indicate that Russia is far more concerned about volume than accuracy. There are shell crates randomly everywhere, dozens or hundreds of meters scattered either side of anything that would seem to be a target. And craters mean contact fuses, so only near direct or direct hits are doing any damage. Russia must ne using massive amounts of ammunition to relatively little effect in most cases.

I guess sufficient volume has an accuracy of its own.


There is a military concept called Revolution in Military Affairs (RMA). It is new strategies, tactics, and technology that change warfare. The Atom Bomb and Blitzkrieg are examples.

It is my opinion the suite of precision weapons given to Ukraine is a RMA. The world has not seen in conventional war relatively light forces beating heavy mechanized forces. It is proof positive the US doctrine of precision and smart weapons is far superior to the current Russian doctrine.

My 2 cents.
AtticusMatlock
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S-200 250km range would be consistent with location of shoot down if fired from just behind the line of control.

MouthBQ98
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I still wonder how they got it.

Theoretically an S-200 has the range but the Russians would have noted the radar activity and launch and turned away to get out of the maximum range.

They were dropping flares so were aware of a close range threat , they could have been dropping chaff also that we could not see. One might think an IR missile with one chasing a flare but it might have attacked a chaff cloud instead.

The brief images of the blast and shrapnel damage to the tail indicates a rather large missile. Most small IR missiles have hit to kill warheads or very small proximity warheads.

It had to have been a rather large missile, but at that range, it would have been probably radar guided, or perhaps carried and launched by a large drone?

The plane definitely was fleeing. Possibly it just got too close to a hidden S-200 battery near the border with the very latest seeker updates.
JFABNRGR
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Or just as cool if the Ukes were able to spoof the A50 into appearing as enemy target to their own ADA.
fullback44
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lb3 said:


That's gonna leave a mark
fullback44
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Updated Ukraine Situation Report, lots of good info

fullback44
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US warning Iran from supplying Russia with powerful missiles, I'm not sure what we can do to stop it? Sanction Iranian oil ?

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-788464
txags92
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fullback44 said:

US warning Iran from supplying Russia with powerful missiles, I'm not sure what we can do to stop it? Sanction Iranian oil ?

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-788464
Take the muzzle off of the Israelis.
ABATTBQ11
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It could be an S-200 that was part of a FrankenSAM system. Ukraine has been mixing Soviet and Western systems for awhile. Could have tricked the Russians by using a Western radar to lock onto them for a weapon without the range and firing an S-200. A-50 might've thought they were safely out of range until the missile locked on and they realized what was going on.
AgPrognosticator
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Ag with kids said:

Waffledynamics said:

Trent Telenko with speculation.


This kinda thing makes me think that WE have people inserted in theater that are helping them adapt.


It's been that way since day 1 my friend….. we have been at war with Russia since day 1….
PJYoung
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AgPrognosticator said:

Ag with kids said:

Waffledynamics said:

Trent Telenko with speculation.


This kinda thing makes me think that WE have people inserted in theater that are helping them adapt.


It's been that way since day 1 my friend….. we have been at war with Russia since day 1….


Giant article in the NYTimes this morning detailing the CIAs involvement.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/the-spy-war-how-the-cia-secretly-helps-ukraine-fight-putin.html

That November, and in the weeks that followed, the C.I.A. and MI6 delivered a unified message to their Ukrainian partners: Russia was preparing for a full-scale invasion to decapitate the government and install a puppet in Kyiv who would do the Kremlin's bidding.

U.S. and British intelligence agencies had intercepts that Ukrainian intelligence agencies did not have access to, according to U.S. officials. The new intelligence listed the names of Ukrainian officials whom the Russians were planning to kill or capture, as well as the Ukrainians the Kremlin hoped to install in power.

President Zelensky and some of his top advisers appeared unconvinced, even after Mr. Burns, the C.I.A. director, rushed to Kyiv in January 2022 to brief them.

As the Russian invasion neared, C.I.A. and MI6 officers made final visits in Kyiv with their Ukrainian peers. One of the M16 officers teared up in front of the Ukrainians, out of concern that the Russians would kill them.

At Mr. Burns's urging, a small group of C.I.A. officers were exempted from the broader U.S. evacuation and were relocated to a hotel complex in western Ukraine. They didn't want to desert their partners.

No Endgame
After Mr. Putin launched the invasion on Feb. 24, 2022, the C.I.A. officers at the hotel were the only U.S. government presence on the ground. Every day at the hotel, they met with their Ukrainian contacts to pass information. The old handcuffs were off, and the Biden White House authorized spy agencies to provide intelligence support for lethal operations against Russian forces on Ukrainian soil.

74OA
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PJYoung said:

AgPrognosticator said:

Ag with kids said:

Waffledynamics said:

Trent Telenko with speculation.


This kinda thing makes me think that WE have people inserted in theater that are helping them adapt.


It's been that way since day 1 my friend….. we have been at war with Russia since day 1….


Giant article in the NYTimes this morning detailing the CIAs involvement.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/the-spy-war-how-the-cia-secretly-helps-ukraine-fight-putin.html

That November, and in the weeks that followed, the C.I.A. and MI6 delivered a unified message to their Ukrainian partners: Russia was preparing for a full-scale invasion to decapitate the government and install a puppet in Kyiv who would do the Kremlin's bidding.

U.S. and British intelligence agencies had intercepts that Ukrainian intelligence agencies did not have access to, according to U.S. officials. The new intelligence listed the names of Ukrainian officials whom the Russians were planning to kill or capture, as well as the Ukrainians the Kremlin hoped to install in power.

President Zelensky and some of his top advisers appeared unconvinced, even after Mr. Burns, the C.I.A. director, rushed to Kyiv in January 2022 to brief them.

As the Russian invasion neared, C.I.A. and MI6 officers made final visits in Kyiv with their Ukrainian peers. One of the M16 officers teared up in front of the Ukrainians, out of concern that the Russians would kill them.

At Mr. Burns's urging, a small group of C.I.A. officers were exempted from the broader U.S. evacuation and were relocated to a hotel complex in western Ukraine. They didn't want to desert their partners.

No Endgame
After Mr. Putin launched the invasion on Feb. 24, 2022, the C.I.A. officers at the hotel were the only U.S. government presence on the ground. Every day at the hotel, they met with their Ukrainian contacts to pass information. The old handcuffs were off, and the Biden White House authorized spy agencies to provide intelligence support for lethal operations against Russian forces on Ukrainian soil.


Fascinating. Ten years of quiet intelligence sharing benefiting both the US and Ukraine.

"That initial tranche contained secrets about the Russian Navy's Northern Fleet, including detailed information about the latest Russian nuclear submarine designs. Before long, teams of C.I.A. officers were regularly leaving his office with backpacks full of documents."

Try this if direct link won't open: PARTNERSHIP
benchmark
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PJYoung said:

Giant article in the NYTimes this morning detailing the CIAs involvement.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/the-spy-war-how-the-cia-secretly-helps-ukraine-fight-putin.html
Thanks for sharing. Investigative journalism at it's finest. A few more snippets.

Quote:

Often, the C.I.A. briefings contained shockingly specific details.

On March 3, 2022 the eighth day of the war the C.I.A. team gave a precise overview of Russian plans for the coming two weeks. The Russians would open a humanitarian corridor out of the besieged city of Mariupol that same day, and then open fire on the Ukrainians who used it.

The Russians planned to encircle the strategic port city of Odesa, according to the C.I.A., but a storm delayed the assault and the Russians never took the city. Then, on March 10, the Russians intended to bombard six Ukrainian cities, and had already entered coordinates into cruise missiles for those strikes.

The Russians also were trying to assassinate top Ukrainian officials, including Mr. Zelensky. In at least one case, the C.I.A. shared intelligence with Ukraine's domestic agency that helped disrupt a plot against the president, according to a senior Ukrainian official.

When the Russian assault on Kyiv had stalled, the C.I.A. station chief rejoiced and told his Ukrainian counterparts that they were "punching the Russians in the face," according to a Ukrainian officer who was in the room.
Tanker123
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AgPrognosticator said:

Ag with kids said:

Waffledynamics said:

Trent Telenko with speculation.


This kinda thing makes me think that WE have people inserted in theater that are helping them adapt.


It's been that way since day 1 my friend….. we have been at war with Russia since day 1….



We have SMs on the ground in Ukraine. The war entails infinite coordination. Ukraine is not working in a vacuum. US V Corps Foward is located in Poland with contingency plans to stand up an Infantry and Armor should the US enter the war kinetically.

The JTF Commander is an army LTG with a robust staff of several hundreds. US combat brigades are rotating in and out of Poland which tests logistics and the Reception, Staging, and Onward Inegration (RSOI), and basing capabilities.

JTFs have the capability to:
- Coordinate with host nation and military.
- Building up forces.
- Planning to include combat operations.
- Coordinating logistics.
- Coordinating training.
- Providing intelligence.
- Coordinating fielding of equipment, weapons, and weapons systems.
- Providing command and control over all branches of the military.

Ukraine is not alone in the war.



74OA
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Ukraine marks two years of bitter, costly, unnecessary war.

UPDATES
japantiger
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S
Substantially less than everyone else's numbers

https://www.oann.com/newsroom/zelenskyy-claims-31000-ukrainian-soldiers-have-died-since-russias-full-scale-invasion/
Waffledynamics
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I wouldn't believe either side's numbers that they tell about themselves or each other right away.
PlaneCrashGuy
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japantiger said:

Substantially less than everyone else's numbers

https://www.oann.com/newsroom/zelenskyy-claims-31000-ukrainian-soldiers-have-died-since-russias-full-scale-invasion/


Not sure how that jives with a mobilization of 1/2 million.
lb3
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Waffledynamics said:

I wouldn't believe either side's numbers that they tell about themselves or each other right away.
That may not be that far off. Ukraine's medical evacuations are far superior to Russia's so it wouldn't be surprising to see a 10:1 casualty ratio.
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