***Russian - Ukraine War Tactical and Strategic Updates*** [Warning on OP]

7,558,926 Views | 47740 Replies | Last: 2 hrs ago by Waffledynamics
ABATTBQ11
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AG
Sounds like a lot of damage. The electronics manufacturer would be huge if they destroyed production equipment. That's something Russia cannot really replace domestically. They're bad at making the things that make things.

The transports can be big losses, but it's not like Russia doesn't have more. If they're publicly admitting to 4 damaged, there's likely a lot more to the story though. I think the bigger issue is the distance from Ukraine. Either the drones were launched domestically, by partisans in Belarus, or they flew hundreds of miles undetected from Ukraine. In any case, Russia has some serious security issues of they allowed 20 drones to strike that far into their territory, and it seems like nowhere in the country is safe.
fullback44
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The drones they are saying made it may not have been drones but possibly the modified Neptune missiles that can now strike Far and deep into Russia. Maybe the drones are just distractions for their defense systems ? Anyway just a thought
nortex97
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AG
Excellent summary of the 'counter-offensive.'

Quote:

Ukraine's last uncommitted brigade the elite 82nd airborne (named after the US division with the same name) was sent to Rabotino, along with the rest of 10 Corps and the 47th and 65th brigades of 9 Corps, recalled after phase 1. Ukraine also sent in the only new unit it could find, the 15th National guard brigade and mentioned 10 brigades that were involved in the capture of Rabotino. Subsequently,
10 Corps reached the first Russian defensive line south of the village, where they were halted by
Russian counter attacks. Since this was the only Ukrainian effort along a very narrow front, any
advance by Ukraine without strengthening the flanks, would result in a dangerously long salient, liable to being cut off, or attacked from 3 sides. All Russian reserves 2 regiments of the 7th Guards Airborne, 2 BARS brigades (10 and 11) and a newly arrived rifle brigade from the Far East, were sent to Rabotino.

Thus 10 Ukrainian brigades in Rabotino, will find it difficult to make any further breakthrough against 8 opposing Russian brigades. The conundrum for Ukraine is that the harder they try to breakthrough, the more losses they will take and any further advance harms their position (lengthening salient with a small base pushing against increasing larger forces). It was a similar situation to that of the SS Panzer Corps in Kursk 1943, when they made a breakthrough and seemed to have won the critical battle of Prokhorova, but retreated because of a similar situation as Ukraine's 10 Corps (which has not defeated the Russians in any set piece battle) finds itself in now. The Ukrainians cannot remain in place, because they do not have enough ammunition for extended combat.

It has been acknowledged by the Western media that the 10 Corps and the theatre reserve 61 Brigade, represent Ukraine's last reserves. There are no further units available anywhere, barring undermanned and under equipped territorial army units. Russia, on the other hand has around (as per Ukraine) 100,000 men in reserve along the northern (Kharkov Kupiansk) front, which is of less strategic importance than the Zaporozhe counter-offensive. This figure seems credible, since we know these man have been mobilized and trained (after considering replacements into existing units) but do not feature in any of the units currently fighting - as I have explained in part 1 of this Ukraine blog. If Russia needed more reserves in the South, they can tap into this source, or move the experienced 150th Rifle division, which is part of 8th Army and was moved to the Bakhmut front. It can ideally get back to its parent formation, while new brigades (located closer) can move into Bakhmut.

Implications: Ukraine has exhausted its reserves and have announced a fresh round of mobilization where 200,000 men are sought to be recruited. The recruits from this round, will have lesser experience and willingness to fight as compared to previous rounds of mobilization. They cannot be equipped untilspring of 2024 at the earliest and that assumes that NATO ramps up armament production and continues to support Ukraine at the same rate. Mere NATO support, at current levels of production is not enough, because whatever could be transferred from existing stocks has been sent. Ramping up production would in many cases, be contingent on Ukraine demonstrating a path to victory. Trying to do so (as the CO has demonstrated) will result in higher losses relative to Russia, particularly considering the poorer quality of manpower and equipment of the Ukraine army after this CO.

If Ukraine goes on the defensive, Russia has an opportunity to conduct its own offensive, either in Sept, until the Oct rains, or in winter after the ground freezes. The Sept-Mar period will be when Russia is strongest relative to Ukraine's manpower and armaments. After March, Russian production of key items will equal consumption (assuming Russia conducts defensive operations only).
More at the link.

Russian source claims to have destroyed 4 Ukrainian 'commando' speed boats. Kiev was rocked by some fires/explosions over the past 5 hours.

The airfield attack at Pskov is going to be an interesting one for the timeline.

Quote:

Biggest development of the ongoing Ukrainian War today was a massive drone attack on Pskov Airfield that appears to have destroyed two Il-76 transport planes and started a fuel fire.

Here's the issue - Pskov is on the other side of Belarus from Ukraine.

So our options are:

1. 20+ Ukrainian strike drones flew over 660km of hostile territory (including the entire breadth of Belarus) without anyone noticing. This is unlikely;
2. Ukrainian DRGs launched 20+ strike drones from inside Russia. This is well beyond any capability they've ever demonstrated and would represent a major waste of assets against a peripheral target; or
3. The drones were launched from Latvia or Estonia, or ships in the Baltic Sea and overflew them en route. This explains why Pskov was targeted and the lack of prior warning given the city is only about 60km from the border. I find this theory most likely.

Why now? Well, the great Ukrainian counteroffensive is culminating about 10km from its line of departure and with it hopes of Ukrainian victory. The Baltic States have distinguished themselves in their belligerence during this war and likely see the postwar writing clearly on the wall for their own long-term fates sandwiched between an ascendant Russia and the Baltic Sea. I can see a sufficiently irresponsible leader authorizing such an attack in the hopes of Russian retaliation triggering a general war with NATO to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

Here's the thing though - NATO isn't remotely ready for that war right now, and anyone claiming they are is deluded. NATO does not have the troops and gear in Eastern Europe to fight Russia right now. It's furthermore made quite clear to members that alliance membership does not guarantee NATO sponsorship if you just decide to attack someone. All loud talk aside, the NATO heavy hitters are about as interested in war with Russia as the Russians are in war with them right now. With that said, face must be saved.

The Russian authorities have yet to release an official statement placing blame for the attack at Pskov. This is quite significant because they've already released statements for the usual drizzle of sporadic Ukrainian drone attacks last night. If my assessment is correct and this attack came out of the Baltic States, I expect a tightly controlled Russian response - and I expect NATO proper to stay on the sidelines for it. Discussions about what exactly this will look like are probably ongoing between the parties as we speak.
(Armchair warlord is I believe a former US Army artillery officer). More:





Taking out a couple/few old IL-76 transports and some fuel depot fires at a remote/Baltic air base with 20+ small drones, well, ok, it's clearly a fair military target after all, but this could have outsized impacts/ramifications if Russia strikes at one of the Nato-member Baltic states it likely was launched from.

The Ukrainians (and some Brits) have wanted to more directly bring nato into the conflict for many months.
AgBank
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AG

Quote:

2. Ukrainian DRGs launched 20+ strike drones from inside Russia. This is well beyond any capability they've ever demonstrated and would represent a major waste of assets against a peripheral target; or



But they have launched drones from Russian soil before. Perhaps not this many at one time. They have flown drones to Moscow, killed jogging war criminals in parks, bombed bloggers etc. Many operatives are native Russian speakers.
sclaff
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Gordo14
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Gordo14
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More evidence
nortex97
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That is very interesting, been waiting to see if such photographic evidence is confirmed, which it seems to be now. This could be a very significant day/week in the war.



LMCane
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Gordo14 said:



The great Russian air defense
The "Special Military Operation to Denazify and Demilitarize Ukraine" -

is progressing better than even the Kremlin could have dreamed.
The Fife
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I'd really like to see pictures or video of the aftermath during the day. I'm sure it happened, but this would tell how many and how bad anything else was.
LMCane
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ABATTBQ11 said:

Sounds like a lot of damage. The electronics manufacturer would be huge if they destroyed production equipment. That's something Russia cannot really replace domestically. They're bad at making the things that make things.

The transports can be big losses, but it's not like Russia doesn't have more. If they're publicly admitting to 4 damaged, there's likely a lot more to the story though. I think the bigger issue is the distance from Ukraine. Either the drones were launched domestically, by partisans in Belarus, or they flew hundreds of miles undetected from Ukraine. In any case, Russia has some serious security issues of they allowed 20 drones to strike that far into their territory, and it seems like nowhere in the country is safe.

Some of those recently trained Uke Marines and SOF who just came back from Germany -

should be infiltrated across the border from the Finnish forests into the northern Arctic Murmansk Oblast and blast the Tu bombers that just fled north last week from their home bases further south.

not only to keep attriting strategic air assets of the Russians-

but force the Russians to redeploy more troops from Ukraine to defend their own borders and infrastructure.
nortex97
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AG




Waffledynamics
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Quote:

Ukrainian defence Forces have success at Novodanylivka-Novoprokopivka and Mala Tokmachka-Verbove directions, - General Staff of Armed Forces of Ukraine says in the morning report


https://liveuamap.com/en/2023/30-august-ukrainian-defence-forces-have-success-at-novodanylivkanovoprokopivka

There is another update also saying the AFU is advancing on Verbove.
P.U.T.U
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The F16 is a fantastic dogfighter and from most of the pilots that have flown several US aircraft may be the most fun to fly. With that being said it is no match against something like the SU-57 but Russia does not seem to have very many of those in service, or at least is not willing to use them.

As long as Russia still has air defenses S300s and S400s they can knock down the F16s with relative ease, that is what those systems were designed for. I think the part of the war with dogfights is over and CAS and long range missile launches are going to be the main use for the F16.
Teslag
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I think the last I saw the russians had maybe 15 or so, not test bed, SU-57's in service.
AgLA06
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The Fife said:

I'd really like to see pictures or video of the aftermath during the day. I'm sure it happened, but this would tell how many and how bad anything else was.
Why?

We've seen photo evidence of planes burning 833km from Kiev. It doesn't matter if it's one or an entire air wing. Russia now knows their airfields, refineries, depots, and utilities aren't safe within 1,000km of Ukraine. And they sure as hell can't protect them all. So they'll keep having to move what they can further and further back. That's a huge win for Ukraine. Having a longer reaction time is huge for F16 and air defenses to intercept missile attacks and makes Russian fighters / bombers have to fly further to intercept or attack anything. Not to mention if Russia wants to go on the offensive with paratroopers, they now have 2 or 3 times the flight in hopes of getting there undetected.

This is a huge embarrassment for Russia. And it sends a clear message that if Russia plans to go full fall / winter attack on Uke civilian infrastructure, they will pay a dear price for it at home as well. Sleep tight Ivan.
ABATTBQ11
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The Fife said:

I'd really like to see pictures or video of the aftermath during the day. I'm sure it happened, but this would tell how many and how bad anything else was.


We may get satellite images soon.
ABATTBQ11
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P.U.T.U said:

The F16 is a fantastic dogfighter and from most of the pilots that have flown several US aircraft may be the most fun to fly. With that being said it is no match against something like the SU-57 but Russia does not seem to have very many of those in service, or at least is not willing to use them.

As long as Russia still has air defenses S300s and S400s they can knock down the F16s with relative ease, that is what those systems were designed for. I think the part of the war with dogfights is over and CAS and long range missile launches are going to be the main use for the F16.


They have a handful of SU-57's, but they are extremely wary of using them near Ukraine because they're not true 5th gen aircraft. More like 4.5. It's a more advanced fighter than everything else in Russia's inventory, but it has the same RCS as an F/A-18. It can certainly be hit by many of the air defenses Ukraine has. I think Russia is unwilling to test how survivable it is in this kind of environment because they know it isn't.

As for Russia's long range ground based air defenses, they are still a serious threat. I wouldn't say they can pick off the F-16's with relative ease, though. Launching against aircraft gives away their location, and that opens them up to missile strikes. It's definitely a cat and mouse game both ways and isn't entirely one sided.
MouthBQ98
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AG
The SU57 is somewhat low observable and highly maneuverable but it isn't in the same class as the F-35 or F-22 regarding stealth capabilities. It has good missiles it can carry and good radar and engagement capabilities but is going to be vulnerable to all the western SAM that have been sent to Ukraine if it enters the engagement envelope of a system. They have very few deployable and aren't going to risk them in Ukraine without a dire need.

The F16 will give some capability to launch long range standoff weapons from the air, and give more flexibility to air defense over Ukraine. They won't be able to move into the front line areas covered with Russian SAM sites without great care to stay far enough back to run out of missile engagement range in launched on.
The ability to have a mobile air to air intercept capability will certainly help combat Russian drone attacks.
sclaff
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AG
Find this interesting- wonder where else China is looking

AgLA06
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AG
Some of us speculated China would take advantage of this conflict and a weakened / distracted Russia. Russia sure has moved a lot of their troops and equipment that would normally be in that direction.

This is something definitely worth watching. Especially if they decide Taiwan isn't worth the fight and still need some wins at home.
LMCane
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AgLA06 said:

The Fife said:

I'd really like to see pictures or video of the aftermath during the day. I'm sure it happened, but this would tell how many and how bad anything else was.
Why?

We've seen photo evidence of planes burning 833km from Kiev. It doesn't matter if it's one or an entire air wing. Russia now knows their airfields, refineries, depots, and utilities aren't safe within 1,000km of Ukraine. And they sure as hell can't protect them all. So they'll keep having to move what they can further and further back. That's a huge win for Ukraine. Having a longer reaction time is huge for F16 and air defenses to intercept missile attacks and makes Russian fighters / bombers have to fly further to intercept or attack anything. Not to mention if Russia wants to go on the offensive with paratroopers, they now have 2 or 3 times the flight in hopes of getting there undetected.

This is a huge embarrassment for Russia. And it sends a clear message that if Russia plans to go full fall / winter attack on Uke civilian infrastructure, they will pay a dear price for it at home as well. Sleep tight Ivan.

Well stated.

I think some around the world are also caught up in the forest for the trees.

Even Zelensky knows this war will not be over in 6 weeks, or 6 months, or even likely 6 years.

Does that mean there is going to be Kursk level combat the entire time?

Absolutely not. But even Zelensky in the past few days is discussing how Ukraine needs to accept they will become like Israel, in a perpetual conflict which may take decades to conclude.

So the mere fact that the Ukrainian Air Force will be receiving and training on 50 F-16s is not the critical issue.

It's that the West is beginning a pipeline to configure the entire Uke military and military industrial complex around NATO/American standards.

that is VERY bad news for the Russkies over the next 20 years.
The Fife
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AgLA06 said:

The Fife said:

I'd really like to see pictures or video of the aftermath during the day. I'm sure it happened, but this would tell how many and how bad anything else was.
Why?

...

Because I work in aerospace and find it interesting to see what was hit, how bad and what the damage is.
P.U.T.U
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And also what Ukraine did to knock out that many large aircraft (II-76 cost around $50 million each and transport Russian equipment like tanks and trucks all of the world), and the TU22 is around $215 million with only 16 rumored to be operational.

If Ukraine really did knock out (5) of the II-76, one TU22, and a S400 system this week that means close to a billion dollars of equipment was knocked out.
74OA
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Russia convicting over 100 soldiers a week for refusing to fight. That's those formally convicted, so I imagine the overall incidence of malingering and other resistance to service is likely much higher.

74OA
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Putin is determined to prevent crowds from honoring Prigozhin. "Wagner mercenary chief Yevgeniy Prigozhin was buried in an unusually secret ceremony in St. Petersburg on Tuesday, with his press service announcing that the event was closed to outsiders, after hearses and funeral corteges laid false trails at several local cemeteries and other locations tracked throughout the day by local journalists."

FUNERAL
Gordo14
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Video plus commentary from Russian milbloggers suggesting Ukraine is already in the Eastern part of Verbove
74OA
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AG
More on the Ukrainian drone attack on Russian airlift base. "Footage of the aftermath of the incident shows one of the airlifters burning fiercely on the tarmac as well as multiple other fires in the vicinity of the airbase."

IL-76
PJYoung
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AG


Link has pics:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1696864509200117862.html

Quote:

The attack was conducted using long-range one-way attack (OWA) UAS (aka kamikaze drones) deployed in large numbers to saturate & overwhelm traditional air defenses. These systems typically have a propeller engine, GNSS+inertial navigation system guidance & a medium-sized warhead

While has acquired #Shahed 131/136 OWA UAS from Iran, has domestically developed its own platforms, including the #Bober (Beaver) OWA drone. These systems have several advantages:
- relatively cheap & easy to produce
- reduced radar signature
- difficult to jam/spoof


Ukraine began to experiment with OWA drones one year ago, with some attacks against infrastructures such as oil refineries conducted with weaponized commercial off-the-shelf UAS like the Chinese-made Mugin 5 fixed-wing drone, which costs $10k on Alibaba

Their cost-effectiveness makes them ideal weapons to strike high-value stationary targets like military complexes & critical infrastructure. By flying slow & low, these systems can be very difficult to detect & intercept for air defenses. The inertial navigation also offsets EW.

The downside is the lack of maneuverability & the diminished accuracy compared to systems with electro-optical guidance like #loitering munitions and weaponized first-person view (FPV) drones. However, this is a minor issue since they are simply intended for different target sets

Recent attacks have shown Ukraine's remarkable ingenuity to develop long-range attack drones & use them with substantial effectiveness. Kyiv is now able to strike deep into Russian territory at will, with drones compensating for the almost total lack of long-range missiles.

More drones ensure higher chances of penetrating A2/AD zone & achieving success. Ukrainian drone deep operations against targets are exposing the vulnerability of traditional air defenses against these systems, a lesson that Western militaries should promptly internalize.

Overall, the operational role of mass-deployed OWA drones, not necessarily with swarming capabilities (which is different), is poised to increase dramatically in the coming future and could overshadow the use of larger, more capable, but also more vulnerable combat UAS.
PJYoung
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AG
PJYoung
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AG


Quote:

According to the ISW, the Russian military has been rapidly redeploying elite airborne units in front-line regions where Ukrainian counteroffensive troops are concentrated. On Aug. 27, an elite Russian air unit was transferred to Robotyne, likely from Luhansk Oblast.

Ukrainian forces liberated Robotyne on Aug. 28.

The ISW said that the frequent lateral redeployment of these units indicates that their capacity is likely diminishing.

"The degradation of these forces will likely weaken Russia's ability to sustain complex defensive operations and almost certainly disrupt any Russian intent to resume offensive operations at scale," the ISW said.

Such operations have previously depended largely on "elite infantry Russia now lacks," the ISW said.

The Aug. 28 report also discussed Russia's missile supply. According to Ukrainian officials, Russia has replenished its stocks to some extent, but lacks the capacity to carry out a campaign of equal magnitude to its winter 2022-2023 offensive.

"Russian forces conducted strikes with up to 100 missiles in a single strike series during the air campaign in the fall and winter of 2022, and the marginal replenishment of their missile stocks will likely prevent them from conducting an air campaign at anywhere near that scale," the ISW wrote.

However, the analysts pointed out that future Russian campaigns may rely less on missiles and more on high-precision drone strikes.
PJYoung
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AG
If you think drones are important now, and they are certainly so very important, just wait.

It's incredible to me that enemy troops are under constant surveillance. There's literally no place to hide any longer.

The current battlefield sounds like an infantryman's worst nightmare and it's going to become so much worse in the future. It's amazing to me how drone use has progressed in Ukraine in just 18 months.
PJYoung
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ABATTBQ11
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I can picture something like kamikaze robot dogs one day. Could be even harder to detect and engage.
nortex97
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I can't believe they are still making these, glass nose and all (which I think is a relic of WW2 era thinking for navigation).



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