RebelE Infantry said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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TBoneAg said:

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Leopards and Abrams are about to get a nice taste of Russian artillery. Something they havent seen in battle yet.

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I'm sure they will chow down and ask for more

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Well if the Leopards perform anything like the ones in Syria did against ISIS, they may have bitten off more than they can chew…

ETA reference: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/germany's-leopard-2-tank-syria-was-beaten-badly-battle-why-78441?amp

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From the link:

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Undoubtedly, the manner in which the Turkish Army employed the German tanks likely contributed to the losses. Rather than using them in a combined arms force alongside mutually supporting infantry, they were deployed to the rear as long-range fire-support weapons while Turkish-allied Syrian militias stiffened with Turkish special forces led the assaults. Isolated on exposed firing positions without adequate nearby infantry to form a good defensive perimeter, the Turkish Leopards were vulnerable to ambushes. The same poor tactics have led to the loss of numerous Saudi Abrams tanks in Yemen, as you can see in this video.

By contrast, more modern Leopard 2s have seen quite a bit of action in Afghanistan combating Taliban insurgents in the service of the Canadian 2A6Ms (with enhanced protection against mines and even floating "safety seats") and Danish 2A5s. Though a few were damaged by mines, all were put back into service, though a Danish Leopard 2 crew member was mortally injured by an IED attack in 2008. In return, the tanks were praised by field commanders for their mobility and providing accurate and timely fire support during major combat operations in southern Afghanistan.

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Who'd have thought that poor tactics can lead to significant losses of even good equipment?

And, Russian artillery isn't guided. They first have to hit a tank to hurt it. Odds are Russian artillery will not be a factor against the leopards and Abrams. Will some be lost? Certainly. It's a war and nothing is indestructible, but as long as the Ukrainians use them with good tactics, they'll probably perform just fine.

Waffledynamics said:

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Wait WHAT

The Biden administration is leaning toward sending “a significant number” of M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, two U.S. officials told me and @alexbward. An announcement could come as early as this week. https://t.co/Mzwvjrth15

— Lara Seligman (@laraseligman) January 24, 2023

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90 seconds to nuclear midnight!

it seems very strange that the messaging for an entire year has been "it doesn't make sense to send Abrams to Ukraine"

and suddenly in one day it becomes "yeah we are sending a lot of Abrams to Ukraine"

LMCane said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Wait WHAT

The Biden administration is leaning toward sending “a significant number” of M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, two U.S. officials told me and @alexbward. An announcement could come as early as this week. https://t.co/Mzwvjrth15

— Lara Seligman (@laraseligman) January 24, 2023

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90 seconds to nuclear midnight!

it seems very strange that the messaging for an entire year has been "it doesn't make sense to send Abrams to Ukraine"

and suddenly in one day it becomes "yeah we are sending a lot of Abrams to Ukraine"

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Have they been doing a bunch of maintenance, repair, and overhaul on Abrams that haven't been in use behind the scenes or would this be from ones that are normally ready to go?

I don't see how this will be an effective "gift" unless we send maintainers. Unless Ukrainians came to America as soon as the war started, to learn how to become maintainers, they are not going to be able to take care of these tanks. We are approaching the equivalent of the First American Volunteer Group (AVG) of the Republic of China Air Force as we did prior to World War II. Next stop Pearl Harbor.

Agreed, the best thing to do is ship M1s to countries and have their "standard" tanks like Leopards shipped to Ukraine.

I think they will be maintained in the short term out of Poland. Then try to train Ukes as fast as you can and field FLE's as best you can.

Yes, even without the maintenance problem the Leopards will be a better option in that environment.

Poland doesn't know how to maintain them, so who do you think will be there maintaining them?

I just don't get this. It seems we're setting them up for disaster.

How many stranded tanks sitting with the gas tank on empty are we going to see during the first offensive?

Then again, we've said similar things about them patching together their army with equipment from around the globe and they've appeared to have integrated it all seamlessly.

We will. We already have a sizeable number of troops from the 1st Cav there now. And I don't think that was by accident.

Bulk of the fighting is in the east and south, towing tanks back to Poland is a long haul and they would be out of play for weeks if not months. I am not sure if Russia got any M1s that we left in Afghanistan but I am not too keen in them or China getting their hands on one since Ukraine will lose some

The Abrams has been around since the 80's and been destroyed in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sure it's not a complete secret as to what it is now. These are probably older hulls that lack the more modern and sensitive upgrades we would really worry about.

Pretty much entering the conflict, don't you think? Certainly a target to be attacked by the Russians.

AgLA06 said:

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I just don't get this. It seems we're setting them up for disaster.

How many stranded tanks sitting with the gas tank on empty are we going to see during the first offensive?

Then again, we've said similar things about them patching together their army with equipment from around the globe and they've appeared to have integrated it all seamlessly.

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We aren't going to just throw them out there. For the past year we have basically been providing the ukes with C&C capabilities and that won't stop now.

BQ78 said:

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Pretty much entering the conflict, don't you think? Certainly a target to be attacked by the Russians.

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You mean like any other piece of equipment we've given them so far fighting the war in Ukraine? HIMARS? M777?

Give me a break. Russia rattles sabers, but they're not dumb enough to perform an attack on a NATO country. It would be the end for them. It's the reason they're so damn scared of NATO on their borders anyway.

Teslag said:

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AgLA06 said:

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I just don't get this. It seems we're setting them up for disaster.

How many stranded tanks sitting with the gas tank on empty are we going to see during the first offensive?

Then again, we've said similar things about them patching together their army with equipment from around the globe and they've appeared to have integrated it all seamlessly.

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We aren't going to just throw them out there. For the past year we have basically been providing the ukes with C&C capabilities and that won't stop now.

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Unless we're crewing them or setting up maintenance facilities close the front line, what exactly would you call it?

The Ukes are doing a great job making do with what they have. They use cars and light trucks to evacuate wounded to field hospitals and keep their supply lines going. I don't see them being able to support Abrams. Those fuel convoys would be an easy target for Russian loitering drones and artillery.

Probably the fact that we're sending in MBT's along with the rest of Europe in solidarity is as important as the tanks themselves.

I'm sure Ukraine will be thrilled, even if they just them as semi stationary, heavily armed artillery pieces that are broken half the time due to being new tech to them.

If you don't see this as upping the ante dangerously you need to take the blinders off. If we even, get the M1s over there, they will soon realize they need to move operations closer to the front to be effective. Americans supported by the government, in Ukraine, is edging closer to war with American lives at stake.

BQ78 said:

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Poland doesn't know how to maintain them, so who do you think will be there maintaining them?

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Poland already has leased Abrams on hand and is well into training in anticipation of pending delivery of hundreds of M1s. I'm sure there is already a substantial contractor and US Army support establishment in-country that could be easily expanded to provide rear area maintenance for Ukrainian Abrams.

That said, I still maintain it makes better sense to send surplus Abrams to backfill countries supplying Leos to Ukraine, rather than adding operational and logistics complexity by sending both Leo and Abrams to Ukraine itself.

And right now Americans are supporting those tanks, Poles are not ready to do that until later this year.

I think it's Telenko on Twitter that has some good thoughts on this but from what I recall:

- the Ukes are currently maintaining equipment spanning decades of use. From WW1 machine guns to modern Turkish drones and US artillery and every Cold War era vehicle in between

- the modern learning curve means anyone with a computer can download manuals and run them through a translator

- the M1, and all modern tanks, were designed to be easier to maintain than say a 60s era tank. The power unit on an M1 can be removed in an hour. Can't say the same for a Soviet diesel unit.

There is a difference between heavy and field maintenance for the Abrams. You wouldn't need a team of expert heavy tear down maintenance for a FLE.

Welp, it's no longer up for debate. Gonna be both LEO & ABRAMS

Do you know how often they go back into depot, pretty often actually. The engine is something only highly trained maintainers should be poking around in, not to mention the fuel logistics. The more I think about it, the more of a fiasco this appears to be. A major mistake by an administration of professional mistake makers.

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Do you know how often they go back into depot, pretty often actually.

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I could probably go into my GCSS box and check but I have a decent idea.

This may be a really stupid question, but would they even have the right tools to do basic maintenance on Abrams? Ukraine uses metric tools and I'm assuming Abrams were built using imperial fasteners.

We may be talking over a year for delivery. "Although the officials declined to specify which Abrams tank variant will be sent to Ukraine, they said the US will not pull these vehicles from units or existing stockpiles and instead use the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative. A DoD factsheet said they'd be part of a $400 million USAI package.

"While the deliveries will take some time, because this is a procurement, the United States will begin now to establish a comprehensive training program for their use," one administration official said. "These tanks are complex systems that require a significant amount of training and maintenance, so [the Department of Defense] is currently working through the mechanisms to deliver the fuel and equipment Ukraine will need to operate and to maintain the Abrams."

ABRAMS

I suspect other country's Leo's will arrive sooner than these from Germany and will be in-country in time for the anticipated Ukrainian spring offensive. "Defense Minister Boris Pistorius said he thought the first tanks could be delivered in about three months. A second battalion could then be formed from older Leopard tanks but this would take "a little longer," he said."

LEO

The Fife said:

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This may be a really stupid question, but would they even have the right tools to do basic maintenance on Abrams? Ukraine uses metric tools and I'm assuming Abrams were built using imperial fasteners.

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Army equipment is usually a mix so support tools will usually be capable of both. We have been tailored to operate within a joint NATO force for decades.

Thanks, can't say I haven't learned something today!

74OA said:

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"Although the officials declined to specify which Abrams tank variant will be sent to Ukraine, they said the US will not pull these vehicles from units or existing stockpiles and instead use the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative. A DoD factsheet said they'd be part of a $400 million USAI package.

"While the deliveries will take some time, because this is a procurement, the United States will begin now to establish a comprehensive training program for their use," one administration official said. "These tanks are complex systems that require a significant amount of training and maintenance, so [the Department of Defense] is currently working through the mechanisms to deliver the fuel and equipment Ukraine will need to operate and to maintain the Abrams."

GONNA TAKE A WHILE

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This makes total sense when you look at the amount of resources & time required for this this system to be effective in Ukraine and appears more of a political and counterintel move by the US to get other countries involved faster......AKA operation "release the Leopards".

If I was Ukraine I would not sacrifice any training/resources on the Abrams, that could be used in any of the OTHER armor commitments. Plenty of counter assault can be executed with them long before the M1s become operationally effective in theater.

The Fife said:

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This may be a really stupid question, but would they even have the right tools to do basic maintenance on Abrams? Ukraine uses metric tools and I'm assuming Abrams were built using imperial fasteners.

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A lot of imperial things have metric equivalents. It's not always the case, but often they're close enough that they can be interchangeable.

Now, parts, like nuts, bolts, and screws, aren't going to be interchangeable. They will have different thread pitches and diameters that don't go together. The socket or screwdriver used to tighten/loosen them is often interchangeable though.

The Fife said:

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LMCane said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Wait WHAT

The Biden administration is leaning toward sending “a significant number” of M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, two U.S. officials told me and @alexbward. An announcement could come as early as this week. https://t.co/Mzwvjrth15

— Lara Seligman (@laraseligman) January 24, 2023

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90 seconds to nuclear midnight!

it seems very strange that the messaging for an entire year has been "it doesn't make sense to send Abrams to Ukraine"

and suddenly in one day it becomes "yeah we are sending a lot of Abrams to Ukraine"

---

Have they been doing a bunch of maintenance, repair, and overhaul on Abrams that haven't been in use behind the scenes or would this be from ones that are normally ready to go?

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My guess is that these 31 Abrams that Biden is discussing today will be shipped across the border and have already been in Poland.

Fort Hood sent a ton of equipment over to eastern NATO countries the last 6 months, they can just put them on carriers and drive them to Lviv.

My educated guess is that the Germans wanted a US shield against Russia in order for them to move forward on Leopards-

so this is more of a political maneuver to not leave Berlin hanging on their own against Moscow.

Which makes sense- if 12 countries send tanks to Uke then it makes it more difficult for Putin to target the "offenders".

LMCane said:

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The Fife said:

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LMCane said:

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Waffledynamics said:

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Wait WHAT

The Biden administration is leaning toward sending “a significant number” of M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine, two U.S. officials told me and @alexbward. An announcement could come as early as this week. https://t.co/Mzwvjrth15

— Lara Seligman (@laraseligman) January 24, 2023

---

90 seconds to nuclear midnight!

it seems very strange that the messaging for an entire year has been "it doesn't make sense to send Abrams to Ukraine"

and suddenly in one day it becomes "yeah we are sending a lot of Abrams to Ukraine"

---

Have they been doing a bunch of maintenance, repair, and overhaul on Abrams that haven't been in use behind the scenes or would this be from ones that are normally ready to go?

---

My guess is that these 31 Abrams that Biden is discussing today will be shipped across the border and have already been in Poland.

Fort Hood sent a ton of equipment over to eastern NATO countries the last 6 months, they can just put them on carriers and drive them to Lviv.

My educated guess is that the Germans wanted a US shield against Russia in order for them to move forward on Leopards-

so this is more of a political maneuver to not leave Berlin hanging on their own against Moscow.

Which makes sense- if 12 countries send tanks to Uke then it makes it more difficult for Putin to target the "offenders".

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As the article I linked just above reports, the Abrams for Ukraine will not be pulled from US active units or stockpiles but will be new procurement. Nothing is happening soon.

Here's why: SECRET ARMOR

Which sadly sends the message that we expect this conflict to grind on for years. Which is a tragedy for the entire world, especially Ukraine.