Private PoopyPants said:

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I've been an airplane geek my entire life and to me there is no more surprising element of this war than the lack of effectiveness of the Russian Air Force. It is mind-boggling.

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Yep. I was in an Air Force outfit in the Corps and we studied the history and theory of air power and warfare (for just the two years I was ROTC) and I've had pretty much the same reaction to all these shenanigans as well. Anyone who has read just ONE "intro to air warfare" type textbook could see their whole air scheme is grossly mismanaged at best. Or he'll, just use common sense.

Red Pear Realty said:

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Private PoopyPants said:

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I've been an airplane geek my entire life and to me there is no more surprising element of this war than the lack of effectiveness of the Russian Air Force. It is mind-boggling.

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Yep. I was in an Air Force outfit in the Corps and we studied the history and theory of air power and warfare (for just the two years I was ROTC) and I've had pretty much the same reaction to all these shenanigans as well. Anyone who has read just ONE "intro to air warfare" type textbook could see their whole air scheme is grossly mismanaged at best. Or he'll, just use common sense.

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Well there is no doubt that that the Russian air scheme is absolutely been a complete fiasco. I don't think judging them by NATO/US standards isn't appropriate. Russia has always viewed their air arm differently. Their air force is used part anti-air umbrella part artillery extension and their helicopter component is either mobile tanks along with some mobility/evac/light resupply. Russia hasn't now or really ever used their air arm as a combined arms force.

So it's apples and oranges.

However their deconfliction, resupply, repair, maintenance and air to air has been incredibly ineffective. I'm not actually surprised by their current predicament as they have been terrible at the maintenance and resupply side at least since the 90s. A long war is going to increasingly hard on the Russians.

The complete failure of their command staff to create an operational air plan and implement interdiction and anti-air defense in the opening days of the war is still mind boggling. How the Russians could have looked at NATO/US operations over the last 30 years and especially in both Gulf actions and in Serbia all of which they had a close up view to from their clients and then implement none of those lessons in this action... really crazy. The only things I can think of are that the Russian central command didn't inform their operational air staffs of the strategic plan in time for them to put anything other than the most rudimentary target priority lists or that the Russian's experiences in Syria after the pathetic response by the Ukrainians in 2014 left their operational staffs completely and totally unprepared to understand what a modern peer/near-peer air war would entail. Likely it's a bit of both.

There are going to be some really crazy rethinks of Soviet weapon client states use of anti-air and air assets going forward. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese go mostly/completely away from Russian designed aircraft and the European fighter manufacturers Saab and Dassault (Rafale) will see a lot more sales.

aezmvp said:

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Red Pear Realty said:

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Private PoopyPants said:

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I've been an airplane geek my entire life and to me there is no more surprising element of this war than the lack of effectiveness of the Russian Air Force. It is mind-boggling.

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Yep. I was in an Air Force outfit in the Corps and we studied the history and theory of air power and warfare (for just the two years I was ROTC) and I've had pretty much the same reaction to all these shenanigans as well. Anyone who has read just ONE "intro to air warfare" type textbook could see their whole air scheme is grossly mismanaged at best. Or he'll, just use common sense.

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Well there is no doubt that that the Russian air scheme is absolutely been a complete fiasco. I don't think judging them by NATO/US standards isn't appropriate. Russia has always viewed their air arm differently. Their air force is used part anti-air umbrella part artillery extension and their helicopter component is either mobile tanks along with some mobility/evac/light resupply. Russia hasn't now or really ever used their air arm as a combined arms force.

So it's apples and oranges.

However their deconfliction, resupply, repair, maintenance and air to air has been incredibly ineffective. I'm not actually surprised by their current predicament as they have been terrible at the maintenance and resupply side at least since the 90s. A long war is going to increasingly hard on the Russians.

The complete failure of their command staff to create an operational air plan and implement interdiction and anti-air defense in the opening days of the war is still mind boggling. How the Russians could have looked at NATO/US operations over the last 30 years and especially in both Gulf actions and in Serbia all of which they had a close up view to from their clients and then implement none of those lessons in this action... really crazy. The only things I can think of are that the Russian central command didn't inform their operational air staffs of the strategic plan in time for them to put anything other than the most rudimentary target priority lists or that the Russian's experiences in Syria after the pathetic response by the Ukrainians in 2014 left their operational staffs completely and totally unprepared to understand what a modern peer/near-peer air war would entail. Likely it's a bit of both.

There are going to be some really crazy rethinks of Soviet weapon client states use of anti-air and air assets going forward. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese go mostly/completely away from Russian designed aircraft and the European fighter manufacturers Saab and Dassault (Rafale) will see a lot more sales.

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Worth a re-post since this subject keeps coming up. Here's the best synopsis I've come across of why the Russian Air Force is what it is. DOCTRINE

Quote:

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In summary, the VKS did not conduct a coordinated air campaign against the Ukraine because it lacks the doctrine, tactics, training or operational imperative to conduct such a campaign. It was conceived as and remains an air force subordinated to land power and unable to exploit the characteristics of air power.

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This.

aezmvp said:

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The only things I can think of are that the Russian central command didn't inform their operational air staffs of the strategic plan in time for them to put anything other than the most rudimentary target priority lists or that the Russian's experiences in Syria after the pathetic response by the Ukrainians in 2014 left their operational staffs completely and totally unprepared to understand what a modern peer/near-peer air war would entail. Likely it's a bit of both.

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I think this may be true. The Darth Putin memes are likely correct in that the strategic geniuses didn't think it was necessary to take out AA sites or communication nodes for a 3 day operation. But it still doesn't excuse their outdated doctrine since then.

On day two of a war with NATO, F-35s would be dropping JDAMs seconds after the combat controllers uplinked target coordinates.

AgLA06 said:

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aezmvp said:

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Red Pear Realty said:

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Private PoopyPants said:

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I've been an airplane geek my entire life and to me there is no more surprising element of this war than the lack of effectiveness of the Russian Air Force. It is mind-boggling.

---

Yep. I was in an Air Force outfit in the Corps and we studied the history and theory of air power and warfare (for just the two years I was ROTC) and I've had pretty much the same reaction to all these shenanigans as well. Anyone who has read just ONE "intro to air warfare" type textbook could see their whole air scheme is grossly mismanaged at best. Or he'll, just use common sense.

---

Well there is no doubt that that the Russian air scheme is absolutely been a complete fiasco. I don't think judging them by NATO/US standards isn't appropriate. Russia has always viewed their air arm differently. Their air force is used part anti-air umbrella part artillery extension and their helicopter component is either mobile tanks along with some mobility/evac/light resupply. Russia hasn't now or really ever used their air arm as a combined arms force.

So it's apples and oranges.

However their deconfliction, resupply, repair, maintenance and air to air has been incredibly ineffective. I'm not actually surprised by their current predicament as they have been terrible at the maintenance and resupply side at least since the 90s. A long war is going to increasingly hard on the Russians.

The complete failure of their command staff to create an operational air plan and implement interdiction and anti-air defense in the opening days of the war is still mind boggling. How the Russians could have looked at NATO/US operations over the last 30 years and especially in both Gulf actions and in Serbia all of which they had a close up view to from their clients and then implement none of those lessons in this action... really crazy. The only things I can think of are that the Russian central command didn't inform their operational air staffs of the strategic plan in time for them to put anything other than the most rudimentary target priority lists or that the Russian's experiences in Syria after the pathetic response by the Ukrainians in 2014 left their operational staffs completely and totally unprepared to understand what a modern peer/near-peer air war would entail. Likely it's a bit of both.

There are going to be some really crazy rethinks of Soviet weapon client states use of anti-air and air assets going forward. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese go mostly/completely away from Russian designed aircraft and the European fighter manufacturers Saab and Dassault (Rafale) will see a lot more sales.

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That's a lot of words to say the aren't intelligent enough to have a competent air force doctrin and arrogant enough not to make obvious changes.

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You're not wrong! Although their doctrine as written fits their equipment capabilities. NATO's doctrine and weaponry has been proven to be significantly superior. Russians haven't carried it out very well though.

I was more shocked by the Russian AF's lack of technological advantage. I had no idea so few of the Russian planes would even have pods for guided munitions. I was under the impression they had somewhat similar precision strike capability to the US. Also surprised that their electronic warfare and counter-SAM capabilities weren't really demonstrated early in the conflict.

I guess it does come down to overall Russian military doctrine, cost, and upkeep.

Russian occupied Nova Kakhovka, Kherson Oblast, earlier tonight pic.twitter.com/ycrR4e0fjl

— OSINTtechnical (@Osinttechnical) September 25, 2022

CondensedFoggyAggie said:

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⚡️Zelensky: Every Russian soldier that surrenders will get 'civilized' treatment.

Zelensky said Ukraine will ensure "the secrecy of the circumstances of the surrender" and provide the possibility not to return to Russia for those Russian soldiers who surrender in Ukraine.

— The Kyiv Independent (@KyivIndependent) September 24, 2022

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SMART

Another day of mobilization in Russia. pic.twitter.com/YPUZjEyWAD

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) September 24, 2022

Fight breaks out in the city of Omsk among men who’ve been drafted and local police forcing them onto buses. Draftees called on the police to come die with them in the trenches.

📹 Omsk Civil Association pic.twitter.com/bms9YeYlMo

— Jake Cordell (@JakeCordell) September 24, 2022

Not that anyone is really surprised.

Probably won't make any difference, but they should probably save some of that fight for the Ukes instead of using it up on the guy that might have your back in a couple of days

Today's SITREP.

agent-maroon said:

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Probably won't make any difference, but they should probably save some of that fight for the Ukes instead of using it up on the guy that might have your back in a couple of days

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watch this video; they are thrown in there as a human screen with nothing to defend themselves. Not a professional force in any sense of the word and run by a megalomaniac sitting in Miscow. They have every reason to fear and resist what is coming.

I did watch that video and even commented on him being used as bait in a previous post. Guess I was thinking that there might be some semblance of camaraderie in the trenches vs what one would see from their command, but y'all are probably right that there wouldn't be. Having to fight an enemy and the people surrounding you on your own side in battle is such a foreign way of thinking to me.

Drone footage of a Russian truck with mounted ZU-23-2 gun struck by a Javelin ATGM launched by personnel of the Ukrainian 68th Brigade.#Russia #Ukraine pic.twitter.com/VoI87NRcOI

— BlueSauron👁️ (@Blue_Sauron) September 24, 2022

ouch, still smoking. Assuming NLAW's or Javelins. 2nd one is tipped sideways in a pond. Must be around Kupyansk

Yesterday we spotted two abounded Russian T-90A after the fail counter-attack.

Kharkiv oblast, 24/09/2022. pic.twitter.com/1NRcUycGFJ

— Kriegsforscher (@OSINTua) September 25, 2022

The source is in Ukrainian. Use your device's "Translate to English" function if you want to read the whole thing in English on their site. Otherwise, here's the translation below.

https://news.liga.net/ua/politics/news/okkupanty-v-novoy-kahovke-postroili-truboprovod-dlya-topliva-ok-yug

Quote:

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The occupiers in Nova Kakhovka built a pipeline for fuel - OK "Pivden"

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Quote:

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The Russian occupiers built a pipeline for pumping fuel in the temporarily occupied Novaya Kakhovka. This was reported by the spokeswoman of the operational command "South" Nataliya Humenyuk on the air of the national telethon.

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Quote:

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Humenyuk emphasized that the Armed Forces of Ukraine continue to keep the occupied territories under fire control, where the enemy places its reserves, concentrates equipment and weapons.

"They still try to find options for crossing the Dnipro, despite the fact that we are constantly adjusting the condition of the bridges, so that they are not used for moving heavy equipment. But they send light equipment there. And it is also known that they laid a pipeline for pumping fuel," Humenyuk said.

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You can see the track still turning on the tank that's smoking.

Latest Defence Intelligence update on the situation in Ukraine - 25 September 2022

Find out more about the UK government's response: https://t.co/MDuAmXKYmH

🇺🇦 #StandWithUkraine 🇺🇦 pic.twitter.com/P4MGv0YjgE

— Ministry of Defence 🇬🇧 (@DefenceHQ) September 25, 2022

Quote:

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Key Takeaways:

Local military commissars are carrying out mobilization orders in a way that suggests a possible disconnect between Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu's guidelines for partial mobilization and Russian President Vladimir Putin's demands for haste.

Russian President Vladimir Putin is likely continuing to address systemic issues in Russian senior command by replacing individual senior subordinates.

Russia may be preparing to forcibly mobilize Ukrainian prisoners of war in what may constitute a violation of the Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War.

Ukrainian forces likely continued to make gains along the Kharkiv-Luhansk Oblast border and northwest of Lyman.

Ukrainian military officials indicated that the continued Ukrainian interdiction campaign in southern Ukraine is degrading Russian combat capabilities.

Russian sources identified three locations where Ukrainian troops conducted ground operations in Kherson Oblast- northern Kherson Oblast, western Kherson Oblast near the Inhulets River, and northwest of Kherson City near the Mykolaiv-Kherson Oblast border.

Russian forces conducted ground attacks around Bakhmut, Donetsk City, and in western Donetsk Oblast.

Russian authorities continue to coerce residents of occupied Ukrainian territory into voting in sham referenda.

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https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-september-24

Quote:

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Russian army attacked administrative building in central Odesa with 3 Shahed-136 drones, one drone was shot down by air defense

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/25-september-russian-army-attacked-administrative-building

Quote:

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Ukrainian air defense shot down Shahed-136 drone on the way to Mykolaiv

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https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/25-september-ukrainian-air-defense-shot-down-shahed136-drone

Drones in the South.

At night there was a strike at a «Play» hotel in Kherson, which allegedly was used by Russian propagandists from RT.
It is already known that Oleksiy Zhuravko, a collaborator and former deputy of Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, was killed as a result of strike.
/1#Ukraine #Kherson pic.twitter.com/G5HvMCMqKe

— Special Kherson Cat 🐈🇺🇦 (@bayraktar_1love) September 25, 2022

This is from Rybar, a pro-Russian milblogger.

Quote:

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! The situation in the Limansky direction
by the end of September 24, 2022

In the Redkodub area, the Armed Forces of Ukraine managed to
take advantage of the numerical superiority and push
through the defense of the RF Armed Forces. Ukrainian
formations entered the operational space to the north of
the settlement, where there is no continuous line of defense.

Ukrainian formations established control
over Redkodub, Karpovka, Novoe after a successful
attack from Lozovoe.

The reinforcements of the motorized rifle formations of the
20th Army, who arrived in time, carried out a successful
KontpaTaky and recaptured the villages of Karpovka and Novoye.

The enemy entrenched himself in the village of Redkodub, in
fierce battles are going on in the vicinity.

The Ukrainian command sent large forces of
motorized infantry to move further towards ceBepy
and the exit to the Svatovo-Borovoe highway.

In the event that the Armed Forces of Ukraine reach Svatovo,
the entire Liman group of allied forces will be in an operational
encirclement.
With a simultaneous strike from the bridgehead near Kupyansk,
the entire defense along the border of the LPR could
collapse.

The command of the RF Armed Forces is throwing reserves
into battle in order to pin down parts of the Ukrainian
troops and slow down their advance, gaining time
to create a continuous line of defense and stabilize the
situation at the front.

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⚡🇺🇦💪A simultaneous salvo from several #HIMARS gives us a beautiful video.#Ukraine #UkraineWar #Ukrainians #UkraineWillWin #Ukraina #UkrainianCounteroffensive #UkraineRussiaWar #UkrainaRussianWar #Ukrainian pic.twitter.com/3VTB0QhH0h

— 🇺🇦Ukraine News Live🇺🇦 (@UkraineNewsLive) September 25, 2022

Putin about to get his pretext for declaring martial law.

When people say Putin is trying to recreate the Russian empire, using the church bolster your power is a key part. Funny that Putin fanboys often mention Christian belief as a selling point