ProgN said:

---

txags92 said:

---

I hope Taiwan is smart enough at this point to have an advanced nuclear weapons program in progress. We aren't building a bunch of microchip plants in the US because the tech industry expects us to defend Taiwan aggressively against China.

---

Actually we are but it should have started years ago.

---

Same with naval development. Research naval history and you find that we always get attacked when our Navy is small and weak. Reagan built our Navy with a goal of a 600 ship Navy and won the cold war at least in part because the Russians couldn't afford to keep up. We have somewhere around half of that now in functional and useful warships. Our next war if we choose to do so will likely be over the South China Sea, and our Navy will not be up to the task in its current and projected future form.

74OA said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

aezmvp said:

---

Every town a tank trap and sniper nest. Lots and lots of stuff planted to support guerilla actions. Mines like you said and tank/helicopter hunting teams. The Russians have moved a lot of armor in but if the Ukrainians can use their Javelins well it would at least bloody their nose.

---

This has to be the equivalent of Viet Cong, Al Qaeda, Taliban, IS and every other low down brutal dirty "unfair" style of combat in a blender. With a dash of WW1 thrown in. Hell, start digging tunnels.

They HAVE to make this a bloody war of will. They can't go head to head with armament but they can shred the people. That's their only chance. Turn Ukraine into a Russian soldier's nightmare. Utter remorseless brutality. I hate it but there's no other option if they don't get substantive outside support.

---

Ukraine has to bleed Putin's army for every yard it advances and hope nonstop casualties will create a domestic outcry in Russia. Kiev's conventional forces are in a "use it or lose it" dilemma due to Moscow's overwhelming advantage in the air and artillery of all types, so they need to do maximum damage before they're inevitably overrun. But once the war devolves to isolated skirmishes, close-quarter urban fighting and the constant drain of irregular resistance in the countryside, if Ukrainians can hold on long enough, they have a slim chance of retaining at least part of their country.

Foil, Not Defeat

---

This is why I discussed preemptive offensive strikes by Uke hunter killer teams and their Air Force/Artillery.

if they know 100% the invasion is coming, then at least bloody the Russians and take out as much of their equipment as you can

they already have won the propaganda / international support war

Jay Reimenschneider said:

---

Ukraine is not weak!

---

compared to Moldova- no..

compared to Russia- yes.

Seinfeld quote for about the 100th time on this thread

jabberwalkie09 said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

jabberwalkie09 said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

jabberwalkie09 said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

Holy ***** That's huge. No fly zone, I mean. Would NATO enforce!?!?! Game changer if so.

---

Unclear, that's the first report I've seen of that. If it is true and it actually happened (doubtful), then we/the US military is going to be the backbone of that. It also exponentially increases the likelihood of some Russian/separatist (really no difference) ****ing up and causing another international incident like MH17.

---

This is where we find out if NATO actually means some of the stuff they've been saying about firm resistance or if they're really telling Ukraine:

---

To be fair, NATO has been pretty consistent in their message that NATO will not be fighting the Russians in Ukraine for some time now. I don't see that changing.

---

You don't have to fight them. You just have to make Putin believe that you're willing to. That's where he has us. He's got these weenies scared to death that he'll go to war with the whole world and they're scared ishtless.

---

I understand what your point is, but my statement stands. NATO/the Western European powers have no will to become involved further than what they already are. To be clear, there is no will even for deception that they have displayed.

If I was South Korea, Japan, or Taiwan I'd start making contingencies not based on US support. We, at least politically, clearly don't have the will. Japan has already reinterpreted article 9 of its constitution to allow aid of allies in combat.

---

Uh, Israel is asking why you left them out of your hit list.

Russian TV with alleged shelling of journalists by #Ukraine. Judge for yourself how convincing you find it. pic.twitter.com/MjN6yzgsxo

— Janis Kluge (@jakluge) February 23, 2022

Why do some of you'll think we are obligated to come to Ukraine's defense? Humanitarian? Contractual? Good time to beat up Putin? ??

Sources in occupied Donetsk Oblast tell me Russia is sending 18-year-old boys to front line trenches against Ukraine

— Illia Ponomarenko (@IAPonomarenko) February 23, 2022

I fully expect Japan to remilitarize in the next decade or so.

Taiwan already has nukes. At least 10 but possibly double that.

Occupation authorities in parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions asking Putin "to help repel Ukrainian aggression"
https://t.co/leNkgfBqOe #Ukraine pic.twitter.com/HGQcVJV9D5

— Liveuamap (@Liveuamap) February 23, 2022

Read up

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

LMCane said:

---

jabberwalkie09 said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

jabberwalkie09 said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

jabberwalkie09 said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

Holy ***** That's huge. No fly zone, I mean. Would NATO enforce!?!?! Game changer if so.

---

Unclear, that's the first report I've seen of that. If it is true and it actually happened (doubtful), then we/the US military is going to be the backbone of that. It also exponentially increases the likelihood of some Russian/separatist (really no difference) ****ing up and causing another international incident like MH17.

---

This is where we find out if NATO actually means some of the stuff they've been saying about firm resistance or if they're really telling Ukraine:

---

To be fair, NATO has been pretty consistent in their message that NATO will not be fighting the Russians in Ukraine for some time now. I don't see that changing.

---

You don't have to fight them. You just have to make Putin believe that you're willing to. That's where he has us. He's got these weenies scared to death that he'll go to war with the whole world and they're scared ishtless.

---

I understand what your point is, but my statement stands. NATO/the Western European powers have no will to become involved further than what they already are. To be clear, there is no will even for deception that they have displayed.

If I was South Korea, Japan, or Taiwan I'd start making contingencies not based on US support. We, at least politically, clearly don't have the will. Japan has already reinterpreted article 9 of its constitution to allow aid of allies in combat.

---

Uh, Israel is asking why you left them out of your hit list.

---

Because Israel already has their own interests in mind and will not rely on us to act or support.

GAC06 said:

---

Read up

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

---

Yes, you should read up. Here's the official document straight from the UN:

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf

No where in there does it say we would come to their defense.

BREAKING-New piece of destructive malware discovered circulating in Ukraine - ESET researchers

— Phil Stewart (@phildstewart) February 23, 2022

And we aren't

javajaws said:

---

Why do some of you'll think we are obligated to come to Ukraine's defense? Humanitarian? Contractual? Good time to beat up Putin? ??

---

Future strategic benefit and give other countries (looking at China) pause as well as not shaking trust that non-NATO allies have in us. We're just kicking the can down the road. Every step we say "Putin won't take the next step". And Putin keeps stepping and we keep backing up.

How do we feel if everyone takes a loss on this, Putin eventually amasses forces and builds forward bases in Western Ukraine, and starts this all over again?

You think the US will go to war for the Baltic states when defense of them is a death trap? We put ourselves behind the 8 ball if we lose this. Ukraine may not be a huge strategic concern now but it could be a key if we lose it to Russia.

I don't trust Putin and this event is an exemplar. We're poised to shut this **** down right now. We may not have as favorable a chance again if we embolden him and allow strategic gains.

Putin knows that the plan is a protracted civilian insurgency. Why do you think he's been running a dehumanization campaign on Ukrainians for years? Why do you think intel indicates likelihood of internment and relocation camps? He's going to try and massacre some and then relocate everyone he can get his hands on into Russia, then emigrate Russians into Ukraine.

We're about to make what I fear in the future proves to be a tremendous error that neither prevents greater conflict nor saves lives but precipitates increased losses with respect to both.

ESET researchers call it a "data wiper malware", has evidence that suggests the attack could have been in planning for nearly two months.

— Doge (@IntelDoge) February 23, 2022

GAC06 said:

---

And we aren't

---

We aren't, but some people seem to be under the impression we are obligated to.

That is why the Baltic states should never have been allowed in NATO in the first place. Avoiding foreign entanglements remains sage advice today as it was when George Washington originally gave it as the basis of American foreign policy.

Since we abandoned our identity as a mercantile republic with fixed borders to become a global empire, has our liberty at home been enhanced or depleted by the national security aparatus and military industrial complex that must accompany such a project?

Has the prosperity of ordinary Americans been enhanced by this project or harmed?

You want to risk a war of annhilation over lands that have been ruled by the Tsars or the Soviets since before the founding of our republic? Do we even have a republic? Or are we just a bank and armed military force held in common by the rest of the world?

Who? I haven't seen that

We let that genie out of the bottle a long time ago and we can't even hope to get it back in until Putin and China are put to bed. We never should have been in the Middle East. We split Vietnam and Korea but Korea is looking like a very wise decision given the current China sitch.

We can't be the America we want to be in today's world till the vestiges of last century (at least with regard to other superpowers) are swept away because they have a bullseye on us and our allies economically and militarily.

Finish the job and then we can rest easy because there's nobody else to come for us. Taking care of Russia will help sit China the ferk down and change their tone for the foreseeable future and avoid an ever costlier confrontation in the Pacific.

Put Putin down here and he's done Politically. This would expose weakness and poor judgement and kill him at home. It would also result in a crippling blow to his military. He's got everything out in the open. This would essentially eliminate Putin as a future threat and reduce our need for appreciable NATO involvement and contribution in future years. Long term this is the move. Any short term gain would be very brief before we're right back where we are now.

I want this over. All of it. I want to be what we're supposed to be but we can't treat the world like we did Afghanistan, Iraq. If you half ass it, it ALWAYS comes back to bite you in the ass.

If we take the above mentality and the world knows we mean it, there's every likelihood that nary a shot is even fired in a conflict between us and either Russia or China and we maintain stasis.

Wrec86 Ag said:

---

Pure political theatre. Putin's "unscheduled" live emergency meeting with his security council was broadcast at 5pm. Sergei Shoigu & Sergei Lavrov watches both say 11:45.

---

Those two guys in the back of the photos couldn't look more Russian if they were wearing an Adidas track suit with a hammer and sickle tattooed on their foreheads.

Rossticus said:

---

We let that genie out of the bottle a long time ago and we can't even hope to get it back in until Putin and China are put to bed. We never should have been in the Middle East. We split Vietnam and Korea but Korea is looking like a very wise decision given the current China sitch.

We can't be the America we want to be in today's world till the vestiges of last century (at least with regard to other superpowers) are swept away because they have a bullseye on us and our allies economically and militarily.

Finish the job and then we can rest easy because there's nobody else to come for us. Taking care of Russia will help sit China the ferk down and change their tone for the foreseeable future and avoid an ever costlier confrontation in the Pacific.

Put Putin down here and he's done Politically. This would expose weakness and poor judgement and kill him at home. It would also result in a crippling blow to his military. He's got everything out in the open. This would essentially eliminate Putin as a future threat and reduce our need for appreciable NATO involvement and contribution in future years. Long term this is the move. Any short term gain would be very brief before we're right back where we are now.

I want this over. All of it. I want to be what we're supposed to be but we can't treat the world like we did Afghanistan, Iraq. If you half ass it, it ALWAYS comes back to bite you in the ass.

If we take the above mentality and the world knows we mean it, there's every likelihood that nary a shot is even fired in a conflict between us and either Russia or China and we maintain stasis.

---

Man, you might want to have your T checked - your dosage might be too high!

“Everyone who has an active public anti-Russian position in Ukraine must already take measures for personal security. Be ready for self-defense, be careful and pay special attention to the "red" areas - home, work any place you visit often. Inspect your car, do not move alone” https://t.co/QjD8Ig3XKs

— Walter Lekh (@walterlekh) February 23, 2022

Rossticus said:

---

Sources in occupied Donetsk Oblast tell me Russia is sending 18-year-old boys to front line trenches against Ukraine

— Illia Ponomarenko (@IAPonomarenko) February 23, 2022

---

and?

I will not kill myself, if I'm suicided, it was Putin.

The airport in #Kharkiv is closed until morning. NOTAM in place. No reason given on why.

https://t.co/r9RLe0EYui

— The Intel Crab (@IntelCrab) February 23, 2022

The world was a lot different in Washington's day, and as great as he was, he wasn't infallible. In Washington's day, any country could pretty much be self sufficient because the world was mostly agrarian. In the modern world, everyone is dependent on someone and somewhere else, so it is much easier to gain leverage on the resources that a country needs without ever challenging it directly. Other people's problems can quickly become your problems whether you like it or not. Yes, it was smart to stay out of Europe's wars because they were over the resources that Europeans competed for, but even Washington would have admitted that it was worthwhile to get involved in someone else's conflict when it threatened or impacted your own interests (trade routes, supplies, etc).

A is A said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

Sources in occupied Donetsk Oblast tell me Russia is sending 18-year-old boys to front line trenches against Ukraine

— Illia Ponomarenko (@IAPonomarenko) February 23, 2022

---

and?

---

Russia forcing 18 year old Ukrainians to fight… Ukrainians. I mean, it's not a surprise but it's effed up. Like making 18 year olds from College Station fight people from Houston.

javajaws said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

We let that genie out of the bottle a long time ago and we can't even hope to get it back in until Putin and China are put to bed. We never should have been in the Middle East. We split Vietnam and Korea but Korea is looking like a very wise decision given the current China sitch.

We can't be the America we want to be in today's world till the vestiges of last century (at least with regard to other superpowers) are swept away because they have a bullseye on us and our allies economically and militarily.

Finish the job and then we can rest easy because there's nobody else to come for us. Taking care of Russia will help sit China the ferk down and change their tone for the foreseeable future and avoid an ever costlier confrontation in the Pacific.

Put Putin down here and he's done Politically. This would expose weakness and poor judgement and kill him at home. It would also result in a crippling blow to his military. He's got everything out in the open. This would essentially eliminate Putin as a future threat and reduce our need for appreciable NATO involvement and contribution in future years. Long term this is the move. Any short term gain would be very brief before we're right back where we are now.

I want this over. All of it. I want to be what we're supposed to be but we can't treat the world like we did Afghanistan, Iraq. If you half ass it, it ALWAYS comes back to bite you in the ass.

If we take the above mentality and the world knows we mean it, there's every likelihood that nary a shot is even fired in a conflict between us and either Russia or China and we maintain stasis.

---

Man, you might want to have your T checked - your dosage might be too high!

---

I'll take it over the beta low-t limp Lib alternative any day my man!

Rossticus said:

---

javajaws said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

We let that genie out of the bottle a long time ago and we can't even hope to get it back in until Putin and China are put to bed. We never should have been in the Middle East. We split Vietnam and Korea but Korea is looking like a very wise decision given the current China sitch.

We can't be the America we want to be in today's world till the vestiges of last century (at least with regard to other superpowers) are swept away because they have a bullseye on us and our allies economically and militarily.

Finish the job and then we can rest easy because there's nobody else to come for us. Taking care of Russia will help sit China the ferk down and change their tone for the foreseeable future and avoid an ever costlier confrontation in the Pacific.

Put Putin down here and he's done Politically. This would expose weakness and poor judgement and kill him at home. It would also result in a crippling blow to his military. He's got everything out in the open. This would essentially eliminate Putin as a future threat and reduce our need for appreciable NATO involvement and contribution in future years. Long term this is the move. Any short term gain would be very brief before we're right back where we are now.

I want this over. All of it. I want to be what we're supposed to be but we can't treat the world like we did Afghanistan, Iraq. If you half ass it, it ALWAYS comes back to bite you in the ass.

If we take the above mentality and the world knows we mean it, there's every likelihood that nary a shot is even fired in a conflict between us and either Russia or China and we maintain stasis.

---

Man, you might want to have your T checked - your dosage might be too high!

---

I'll take it over the beta low-t limp Lib alternative any day my man!

---

Truth!

Personally, I'd like to see us launch airstrikes against the Russians in Ukraine. Use predators to draw out their SAMs and hit their armor while using F-35's and F-22's to hit their air defenses and aircraft. Minimize the risk to our pilots as much as possible while giving Russia something to think about.

Rossticus said:

---

A is A said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

Sources in occupied Donetsk Oblast tell me Russia is sending 18-year-old boys to front line trenches against Ukraine

— Illia Ponomarenko (@IAPonomarenko) February 23, 2022

---

and?

---

Russia forcing 18 year old Ukrainians to fight… Ukrainians. I mean, it's not a surprise but it's effed up. Like making 18 year olds from College Station fight people from Houston.

---

not really an apt analogy

they are Russians who happened to have lived in Ukraine (if that report is even true)

that doesn't mean they are shooting their brothers. they are Russians and fighting the Ukrainians

the better analogy is 1861 and a kid from Connecticut who was living in Virginia now has to fight other Virginians

ABATTBQ11 said:

---

Personally, I'd like to see us launch airstrikes against the Russians in Ukraine. Use predators to draw out their SAMs and hit their armor while using F-35's and F-22's to hit their air defenses and aircraft. Minimize the risk to our pilots as much as possible while giving Russia something to think about.

---

Confronted with something less ambitious than that, even, I truly think there's a significant likelihood that Putin backs off and offers to negotiate over Donbas region. Give him no other choice than to sign a treaty agreeing to GTFO AND STFU over anything Ukraine wants to do in exchange for his pound of eastern flesh.