BMX Bandit said:

---

its quite the long paragraph, but when broken down into "steps" nothing in it supports that Pence could "send it back to the state legislatures"

I agree arguing about what Pence could have done is no longer the point, but the OP started this thread so apparently people are still confused on what the constitution and law permitted.

---

Nor did I say he could on January 6th. The horse was out of the barn by that point.

Y'all actually believe this bs? Check the authors.

IronAg45 said:

---

BusterAg said:

---

In my opinion you can't:

1) Have a strict constructionist viewpoint on how to read the constitution; and
2) Believe that Pence had any authority at all to do what Trump was asking him to do.

Holding both of those opinions at the same time is either uninformed or intellectually dishonest.

The reading of the constitution that would allow Pence to do anything at all is so twisted and knotted and strained, that if you applied that type of analysis to other parts of the constitution, you might as well throw the entire document away.

There may be some of you that think we are already there, that we might as well trash what remains of the constitution in order to fight this fight, but I am not one of them.

In my opinion, Pence is an unsung hero. He stood up for the constitution under overwhelming pressure. I am not happy about the result of the fraud election, but I thank Pence for doing the principled thing.

---

I guess I'm uninformed or dishonest, but I don't see how you can call it a fraud election and yet say that the "principled thing" to do was to certify said fraud.

---

Your analysis here is flawed.

I mean, theoretically, Trump could have stormed the capital with a bunch of military elites, arrested the Democrats in congress that were trying to certify a fraud election and put them all in jail.

That way, the fraud election would be avoided.

But, that would not be the right thing to do. Trump NOT arresting all of the Senate was also the "principled thing" to do, and assisted in certifying the fraud election.

But of course, Trump didn't have that power. Nor should he, or any president.

Pence also didn't have the power to do what Trump asked of him. Nor should any VP.

I know the example is a hyperbole, but the issues are the same.

AGHouston11 said:

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Sully Penny said:

---

IronAg45 said:

---

Sully Penny said:

---

I disagree with the OP. The election was fair and it was Trump who was trying to steal it. Pence was a "yes man" enabler until the very end, and couldn't believe how Trump turned on him for having integrity instead of blind loyalty to one man over the U.S. Constitution.

Pence finally acted like a patriot.

---

It's funny how quickly the left went from calling Pence a homophobic psycho to a patriot.

---

1) I'm not left.
2) He's not homophobic, he's prejudiced against homosexuals.
3) Neither he nor Trump are psycho, though Trump is either a narcissistic sociopath or just acts like one, all the time, throughout his adult life.
4) Pence did finally turn into a patriot but it took a long time.

---

So how was Pence not a patriot before that point in time?

---

Great question, and I agree that point is debatable. Pence supported Trump through dissing our allies and snuggling up to dictators, announcing we were leaving NATO, demanding that chloriquine (including hydroxychloroquine) and another substance be immediately named EUA by the FDA without clinical trials because he believed the opinions of two of his personal friends above science, he repeatedly dissed our current military, veterans and intelligence services, believing Xi, Kim and Putin above our NSA, CIA, Army, Naval and other intel services of actual Americans, gave intel from Mossad to the Russians (probably on accident) requiring extraction of at least one highly placed asset and really pissing off the Israelis plus giving them reason to stop giving us top intel for a length of time, constant lies about Covid 19 which endangered Americans whom he was sworn to protect, caring more about political optics than Americans' health and safety, ridiculous Econ 101-ignorant decisions in telling all states, territories and the Fed gov. to all compete against each other (and all other nations) for foreign PPE and other pandemic supplies, etc., etc.

These and many more missteps are so egregious that any VP that doesn't slam down on this chaotic idiocy and goes right along with it is, in my opinion, not patriotic. Including but not limited to his presence when Trump yelled at and insulted everyone in our military calling them "losers" in the meeting they had in the Tank. Any American President that refuses to read his PDBs and doesn't have his VP upbraiding him for it needs a VP that loves America more than his current job.

SW-14 said:

---

Quote:

---

Trump: No, no, no! You don't understand, Mike. You can do this. I don't want to be your friend anymore if you don't do this."

---

We're supposed to be believe he said this? That's the kind of thing my 6 and 3 year olds say.

---

Yes. That sounds exactly like something Trump would say, plus him not knowing the Constitution, even a smidgen.

And, it's obvious there was fraud.

Quote:

---

Great question, and I agree that point is debatable. Pence supported Trump through dissing our allies and snuggling up to dictators, announcing we were leaving NATO, demanding that chloriquine (including hydroxychloroquine) and another substance be immediately named EUA by the FDA without clinical trials because he believed the opinions of two of his personal friends above science, he repeatedly dissed our current military, veterans and intelligence services, believing Xi, Kim and Putin above our NSA, CIA, Army, Naval and other intel services of actual Americans, gave intel from Mossad to the Russians (probably on accident) requiring extraction of at least one highly placed asset and really pissing off the Israelis plus giving them reason to stop giving us top intel for a length of time, constant lies about Covid 19 which endangered Americans whom he was sworn to protect, caring more about political optics than Americans' health and safety, ridiculous Econ 101-ignorant decisions in telling all states, territories and the Fed gov. to all compete against each other (and all other nations) for foreign PPE and other pandemic supplies, etc., etc.

These and many more missteps are so egregious that any VP that doesn't slam down on this chaotic idiocy and goes right along with it is, in my opinion, not patriotic. Including but not limited to his presence when Trump yelled at and insulted everyone in our military calling them "losers" in the meeting they had in the Tank. Any American President that refuses to read his PDBs and doesn't have his VP upbraiding him for it needs a VP that loves America more than his current job.

---

CLIFFNOTES VERSION:

Mean Tweets

Pence is 10 times the man Trump will ever be.

Sully Penny said:

---

AGHouston11 said:

---

Sully Penny said:

---

IronAg45 said:

---

Sully Penny said:

---

I disagree with the OP. The election was fair and it was Trump who was trying to steal it. Pence was a "yes man" enabler until the very end, and couldn't believe how Trump turned on him for having integrity instead of blind loyalty to one man over the U.S. Constitution.

Pence finally acted like a patriot.

---

It's funny how quickly the left went from calling Pence a homophobic psycho to a patriot.

---

1) I'm not left.
2) He's not homophobic, he's prejudiced against homosexuals.
3) Neither he nor Trump are psycho, though Trump is either a narcissistic sociopath or just acts like one, all the time, throughout his adult life.
4) Pence did finally turn into a patriot but it took a long time.

---

So how was Pence not a patriot before that point in time?

---

Great question, and I agree that point is debatable. Pence supported Trump through dissing our allies and snuggling up to dictators, announcing we were leaving NATO, demanding that chloriquine (including hydroxychloroquine) and another substance be immediately named EUA by the FDA without clinical trials because he believed the opinions of two of his personal friends above science, he repeatedly dissed our current military, veterans and intelligence services, believing Xi, Kim and Putin above our NSA, CIA, Army, Naval and other intel services of actual Americans, gave intel from Mossad to the Russians (probably on accident) requiring extraction of at least one highly placed asset and really pissing off the Israelis plus giving them reason to stop giving us top intel for a length of time, constant lies about Covid 19 which endangered Americans whom he was sworn to protect, caring more about political optics than Americans' health and safety, ridiculous Econ 101-ignorant decisions in telling all states, territories and the Fed gov. to all compete against each other (and all other nations) for foreign PPE and other pandemic supplies, etc., etc.

These and many more missteps are so egregious that any VP that doesn't slam down on this chaotic idiocy and goes right along with it is, in my opinion, not patriotic. Including but not limited to his presence when Trump yelled at and insulted everyone in our military calling them "losers" in the meeting they had in the Tank. Any American President that refuses to read his PDBs and doesn't have his VP upbraiding him for it needs a VP that loves America more than his current job.

---

Now do biden

American Hardwood said:

---

Sully Penny said:

---

I disagree with the OP. The election was fair and it was Trump who was trying to steal it. Pence was a "yes man" enabler until the very end, and couldn't believe how Trump turned on him for having integrity instead of blind loyalty to one man over the U.S. Constitution.

Pence finally acted like a patriot.

---

This is gonna need a bookmark. We'll revisit at a later date.

---

Another good point I thought about typing "about as fair and free as any other election we've had," although many election officials from both sides of the aisle have said that this was probably "the most secure election in American history." Georgia did three recounts, one of which was by hand. How many more do we want to see?

Also, Trump never admitted he could lose the election legitimately. He only said, repeatedly for for a long time, that the only way he could possibly lose is if the Democrats steal it. I thought all Americans other than he knew that this was not true, but apparently 37% of our country actually thinks that this is true.

And folks, practically his entire Administration knew that it was practically a zero percent chance that it could be overturned. They had smart people crunching numbers - like they always do - who knew that almost all overturns of any other state or county were within certain margins, and Biden's margins were too numerous and well beyond what's ever been overturned before.

Not to mention the fact that, in the "polling era," I have read that no first term president has ever been re-elected who never even got up to 50% approval rating. He is Mr. Ratings Guy, he always is up on his ratings. The RNC stopped releasing their polling figures months before the election and Kushner touted "our internal polling" showing Trump at 56% approval at one time, but refused to release the polling data to those reporters so they could verify it and print it.

It shouldn't take Sherlock Holmes to not only figure this out now but to've seen it coming, as did I and, clearly, some others. I get supporting people like Trump because you're just kinda screwed since he's crazy, but at least he can get us a bunch of judges seating, especially on the Supreme Court, please believe me, I get the value of all of that.

However, at some point, if the good he can do for America is clearly outweighed by the bad, in my opinion you are not patriotic and/or unAmerican if you don't call this dbag out, even if you're branded a RINO for it.

Quote:

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Trump: No, no, no! You don't understand, Mike. You can do this. I don't want to be your friend anymore if you don't do this."

---

Why does Trump hate responsibility so much? I'd like to see him hold himself responsible for his choices once, just once, instead of blaming. It's sad. Sad! I tell you.

IronAg45 said:

---

Sully Penny said:

---

IronAg45 said:

---

Sully Penny said:

---

I disagree with the OP. The election was fair and it was Trump who was trying to steal it. Pence was a "yes man" enabler until the very end, and couldn't believe how Trump turned on him for having integrity instead of blind loyalty to one man over the U.S. Constitution.

Pence finally acted like a patriot.

---

It's funny how quickly the left went from calling Pence a homophobic psycho to a patriot.

---

1) I'm not left.
2) He's not homophobic, he's prejudiced against homosexuals.
3) Neither he nor Trump are psycho, though Trump is either a narcissistic sociopath or just acts like one, all the time, throughout his adult life.
4) Pence did finally turn into a patriot but it took a long time.

---

Let me guess, you voted for biden only because you couldn't stand Trumps mean tweets? You never-trumpers and your closet leftism.

---

No, although Trump's tweets ranged from funny to classless to ignorant to embarrassing to downright stupid. I voted for Biden because I believe he is, by far, the lesser of two evils, and that our democratic republic is still endangered by Trump. McConnell, McCarthy, Graham, etc., could have made a clean break and get the party back on solid ground, but they didn't.

Also, I was not a never-Trumper until I recognized that he was fatally flawed as a leader, and this was about a month before the election in 2016. If he gets cured of sociopathy and narcissism I'll be happy and eager to change my view there.

Sully Penny said:

---

IronAg45 said:

---

Sully Penny said:

---

IronAg45 said:

---

Sully Penny said:

---

I disagree with the OP. The election was fair and it was Trump who was trying to steal it. Pence was a "yes man" enabler until the very end, and couldn't believe how Trump turned on him for having integrity instead of blind loyalty to one man over the U.S. Constitution.

Pence finally acted like a patriot.

---

It's funny how quickly the left went from calling Pence a homophobic psycho to a patriot.

---

1) I'm not left.
2) He's not homophobic, he's prejudiced against homosexuals.
3) Neither he nor Trump are psycho, though Trump is either a narcissistic sociopath or just acts like one, all the time, throughout his adult life.
4) Pence did finally turn into a patriot but it took a long time.

---

Let me guess, you voted for biden only because you couldn't stand Trumps mean tweets? You never-trumpers and your closet leftism.

---

No, although Trump's tweets ranged from funny to classless to ignorant to embarrassing to downright stupid. I voted for Biden because I believe he is, by far, the lesser of two evils, and that our democratic republic is still endangered by Trump. McConnell, McCarthy, Graham, etc., could have made a clean break and get the party back on solid ground, but they didn't.

Also, I was not a never-Trumper until I recognized that he was fatally flawed as a leader, and this was about a month before the election in 2016. If he gets cured of sociopathy and narcissism I'll be happy and eager to change my view there.

---

LOL, you voted for an idiot (even before dementia) that has been, and is, completely incorrect at every turn. Good Lord.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

.....****GASP****.....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Mike Pence: I don't have authority... it's unconstitutional.

Joe Biden: I don't have authority... but I am going to do it anyway- (eviction moratorium)
Joe Biden: Vaccine Mandates or you will be punished! (Does not have authority and likely unconstitutional)

Like or hate Pence... it would have been great if he could have done something.... but ultimately he followed the rules.

Biden and the Dems don't give a rats ass about the rules as they continually prove.

So are you owning the vaccine mandates tyranny? You voted for it so to you support it?

damiond said:

---

.Mike failed to do his duty. Mike failed America. Mike is a traitor.

---

Nonsense. He did his job. To conclude otherwise shows you don't understand the system.

IronAg45 said:

---

BusterAg said:

---

IronAg45 said:

---

BusterAg said:

---

In my opinion you can't:

1) Have a strict constructionist viewpoint on how to read the constitution; and
2) Believe that Pence had any authority at all to do what Trump was asking him to do.

Holding both of those opinions at the same time is either uninformed or intellectually dishonest.

The reading of the constitution that would allow Pence to do anything at all is so twisted and knotted and strained, that if you applied that type of analysis to other parts of the constitution, you might as well throw the entire document away.

There may be some of you that think we are already there, that we might as well trash what remains of the constitution in order to fight this fight, but I am not one of them.

In my opinion, Pence is an unsung hero. He stood up for the constitution under overwhelming pressure. I am not happy about the result of the fraud election, but I thank Pence for doing the principled thing.

---

I guess I'm uninformed or dishonest, but I don't see how you can call it a fraud election and yet say that the "principled thing" to do was to certify said fraud.

---

Your analysis here is flawed.

I mean, theoretically, Trump could have stormed the capital with a bunch of military elites, arrested the Democrats in congress that were trying to certify a fraud election and put them all in jail.

That way, the fraud election would be avoided.

But, that would not be the right thing to do. Trump NOT arresting all of the Senate was also the "principled thing" to do, and assisted in certifying the fraud election.

But of course, Trump didn't have that power. Nor should he, or any president.

Pence also didn't have the power to do what Trump asked of him. Nor should any VP.

I know the example is a hyperbole, but the issues are the same.

---

So the "principled thing" to do, even when major fraud is evident, is to follow the procedures in place laws that limit the powers of our government officials to the T and accept a fraudulent result. Whose analysis is flawed again?

---

FIFY.

Obligatory:

BMX Bandit said:

---

Quote:

---

I don't want to be your friend anymore if you don't do this

---

well if that didn't convince Pence, nothing would.

---

What a elementary school statement that was,............by the President of the United States. Unbelievable.

SW-14 said:

---

Quote:

---

Trump: No, no, no! You don't understand, Mike. You can do this. I don't want to be your friend anymore if you don't do this."

---

We're supposed to be believe he said this? That's the kind of thing my 6 and 3 year olds say.

---

Exactly but it. Become instantly believable to some folks. There was and continues to be so much disinformation on both sides that I have become numb.

My thoughts on my love for Trump has only been intensified by what has followed since his departure.

1. A figure head puppet as President
2. EVERYTHING I KNOW TO BE GOOO IS BAD & BAD IS NOW GOOD.
3, The opening of the southern border.
4. The immediate change of FOCUS of our military to being WOKE. (Climate change, stand downs and all
Of the other forced discussions).
5. The failed negotiations and outcome of the administration and military leaders to try to architect a deal to trade money, military weapons and hardware & to allow the Taliban into vacated space.
6. Needless killing of 13 military folks who did not need to die only to watch the Administration concentrate on getting a photo op out of it.


I know there are things but I will never be over the Kabul Pullout. It is seared in my brain as much as 9-11.

suburban cowboy said:

---

Yepp, mister moral high ground himself couldn't stand-up when it mattered most.

---

Sadly that is what most people who like to consider themselves as a person of high character would do. You see it here with the concerned moderates all the time. They are completely incapable of taking a stand to support what is right and use the moral high ground as justification. I think it makes them hypocrites of the highest order as they have removed ignorance as an excuse for their inaction.

I dont.beleive anything Woodward writes is accurate.

following the law and upholding the oath to the constitution he took is the "moral" and "right" thing to do. that anyone considers that "sad" says more about them than it does Pence.

Kozmozag said:

---

I dont.beleive anything Woodward writes is accurate.

---

cevans_40 said:

---

suburban cowboy said:

---

Yepp, mister moral high ground himself couldn't stand-up when it mattered most.

---

Sadly that is what most people who like to consider themselves as a person of high character would do. You see it here with the concerned moderates all the time. They are completely incapable of taking a stand to support what is right and use the moral high ground as justification. I think it makes them hypocrites of the highest order as they have removed ignorance as an excuse for their inaction.

---

BMX Bandit said:

---

Pence could not "send it back to legislatures"

Following the constitution is not being a "traitor"

---

Thank you. This is all there is to it.

damiond said:

---

Following the most corrupt election in American history this is the reported conversation from the book Peril
Oval Office Jan 5
Trump: If these people say you had the power, wouldn't you want to?
Pence: I wouldn't want any one person to have that authority.
Trump: But wouldn't it be almost cool to have that power?
Pence: No, I've done everything I could and then some to find a way around this. It's simply not possible.
Trump: No, no, no! You don't understand, Mike. You can do this. I don't want to be your friend anymore if you don't do this."
And one spineless idiot calls another for advice
Quayle: Mike, you have no flexibility on this. None. Zero. Forget it. Put it away.
Pence: You don't know the position I'm in.
Quayle: I do know the position you're in. I also know what the law is. You listen to the parliamentarian. That's all you do. You have no power.
Phone call Jan 6
Trump: If you don't do it, I picked the wrong man four years ago. You're going to wimp out.
Trump interview in June 2021
Brody: What's your take on Mike Pence and what's the relationship like?
Trump: Well, I've always liked Mike and I'm very disappointed that he didn't send it back to the legislatures when you have more votes than you have voters in some cases, and when you have the kind of things that were known then. I was disappointed that he didn't send it back. I felt that he had the right to send it back. He should have sent it back. That's my opinion. I think you may have found that you would have had a different president right now had he sent them back.

Mike failed to do his duty. Mike failed America. Mike is a traitor

---

Can you specifically link what could have been done to get Pence to make Trump President?


I know you will ignore this, but what should he have done that is legal?

BMX Bandit said:

---

following the law and upholding the oath to the constitution he took is the "moral" and "right" thing to do. that anyone considers that "sad" says more about them than it does Pence.

---

I call that hiding behind the law. Much like saying "well I can't do anything about all the baby killing, Its legal."

IronAg45 said:

---

BusterAg said:

---

In my opinion you can't:

1) Have a strict constructionist viewpoint on how to read the constitution; and
2) Believe that Pence had any authority at all to do what Trump was asking him to do.

Holding both of those opinions at the same time is either uninformed or intellectually dishonest.

The reading of the constitution that would allow Pence to do anything at all is so twisted and knotted and strained, that if you applied that type of analysis to other parts of the constitution, you might as well throw the entire document away.

There may be some of you that think we are already there, that we might as well trash what remains of the constitution in order to fight this fight, but I am not one of them.

In my opinion, Pence is an unsung hero. He stood up for the constitution under overwhelming pressure. I am not happy about the result of the fraud election, but I thank Pence for doing the principled thing.

---

I guess I'm uninformed or dishonest, but I don't see how you can call it a fraud election and yet say that the "principled thing" to do was to certify said fraud.

---

The only power Pence had was to open envelopes and count votes. There is no "certifying" required by Pence or any part of the legislature (unless there is no majority electoral college winner). I think there was potentially enough fraud to flip several key states, but the remedy is for the States to step up and not certify their electors. If Pence could not perform his ministerial duty. then the "principled thing" to do, is resign.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 3:

The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed

aggiedent said:

---

Just for the record, who was in the Trump administration, or was placed into a non-administrative position by Trump, that didn't betray the country according to this forum?

Should be a short list?

---

True, I think most on this forum see the truth. Given the state of our federal government there are very, very few people who are patriots and not actively or passively assisting in the end of our republic.

Trump is first on a list of patriots who put country first.

Tanya 93 said:

---

damiond said:

---

Following the most corrupt election in American history this is the reported conversation from the book Peril
Oval Office Jan 5
Trump: If these people say you had the power, wouldn't you want to?
Pence: I wouldn't want any one person to have that authority.
Trump: But wouldn't it be almost cool to have that power?
Pence: No, I've done everything I could and then some to find a way around this. It's simply not possible.
Trump: No, no, no! You don't understand, Mike. You can do this. I don't want to be your friend anymore if you don't do this."
And one spineless idiot calls another for advice
Quayle: Mike, you have no flexibility on this. None. Zero. Forget it. Put it away.
Pence: You don't know the position I'm in.
Quayle: I do know the position you're in. I also know what the law is. You listen to the parliamentarian. That's all you do. You have no power.
Phone call Jan 6
Trump: If you don't do it, I picked the wrong man four years ago. You're going to wimp out.
Trump interview in June 2021
Brody: What's your take on Mike Pence and what's the relationship like?
Trump: Well, I've always liked Mike and I'm very disappointed that he didn't send it back to the legislatures when you have more votes than you have voters in some cases, and when you have the kind of things that were known then. I was disappointed that he didn't send it back. I felt that he had the right to send it back. He should have sent it back. That's my opinion. I think you may have found that you would have had a different president right now had he sent them back.

Mike failed to do his duty. Mike failed America. Mike is a traitor

---

Can you specifically link what could have been done to get Pence to make Trump President?


I know you will ignore this, but what should he have done that is legal?

---

At a bare minimum, he could tell the people of the United States the truth.

If there were true corruption, we should know about it. And no one can convince me that the general public votes damn near 50/50 but mail in ballots are somehow 2-1 favoring the democrats.

So, Dan ****ing Quayle was the voice of reason?

Wow.

BMX Bandit said:

---

Quote:

---

Great question, and I agree that point is debatable. Pence supported Trump through dissing our allies and snuggling up to dictators, announcing we were leaving NATO, demanding that chloriquine (including hydroxychloroquine) and another substance be immediately named EUA by the FDA without clinical trials because he believed the opinions of two of his personal friends above science, he repeatedly dissed our current military, veterans and intelligence services, believing Xi, Kim and Putin above our NSA, CIA, Army, Naval and other intel services of actual Americans, gave intel from Mossad to the Russians (probably on accident) requiring extraction of at least one highly placed asset and really pissing off the Israelis plus giving them reason to stop giving us top intel for a length of time, constant lies about Covid 19 which endangered Americans whom he was sworn to protect, caring more about political optics than Americans' health and safety, ridiculous Econ 101-ignorant decisions in telling all states, territories and the Fed gov. to all compete against each other (and all other nations) for foreign PPE and other pandemic supplies, etc., etc.

These and many more missteps are so egregious that any VP that doesn't slam down on this chaotic idiocy and goes right along with it is, in my opinion, not patriotic. Including but not limited to his presence when Trump yelled at and insulted everyone in our military calling them "losers" in the meeting they had in the Tank. Any American President that refuses to read his PDBs and doesn't have his VP upbraiding him for it needs a VP that loves America more than his current job.

---

CLIFFNOTES VERSION:

Mean Tweets

---

No, BMX, almost none of that stuff was in tweets. That's not where he did most of his damage to our nation.

Sorry your guy lost. Get over it.