Mueller dismisses top FBI agent in Russia probe for anti-Trump texts

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drcrinum
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https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2018/09/05/fbi_kept_from_fisa_court_russian_view_of_page_as_idiot.html

Quote:

The FBI omitted from its application to spy on Carter Page the fact that Russian spies had dismissed the former Trump campaign adviser as unreliable or as one put it, an "idiot" and therefore unworthy of recruiting, according to congressional sources who have seen the unredacted document.

The potentially exculpatory detail was also withheld from three renewals of the wiretap warrant before a special government surveillance court. The warrants issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court allowed the FBI to spy on Page and others he was in contact with for almost a year, the sources also confirmed.

The FBI was aware of Russians' skepticism that Page knew anything of value or was a significant player because the bureau had recorded them voicing such doubts in a wiretap, from an earlier espionage case involving three Russian spies working undercover for the Kremlin in New York.

The FBI cited that 2013 case, minus the disparagement of Page, in its applications to the FISA court. They have been made public only in redacted form, professing evidence that Page was "recruited" by Russian intelligence and had "coordinated" with the Russian government. But "that's a mischaracterization of the facts in the case," a congressional source said....


FriscoKid
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AG
The FBI edited a tape like CNN would have done. What was really going on up there?
Wildcat
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Quote:

FACTS

I think the biggest challenge in 2018 is knowing what these actually are. There is really no reliable, trustworthy news outlet available any longer.

There has always been bias in media. That is unavoidable as we all bring our own perspective to anything we observe; it's human nature. But today's outlets, from both sides of the political spectrum and from traditional and non-traditional sources, are engaged in what I will call "inductive reporting". That is to say, they already have a conclusion and then run around collecting the thoughts and data points that support whatever it is they have decided to report.

So when we say "FACTS", I am not convinced that is what we are actually seeing or if we are simply seeing the "facts" that have been selectively chosen to support a predetermined conclusion.

benchmark
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Wildcat said:

From my chair, it's hard to know how much of this is beginning to slip into conspiracy theory nut-land and how much could actually be real/truth.
Curious, what specific 'conspiratorial' evidence thus far do you consider fact versus supposition?
Wildcat
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benchmark said:

Wildcat said:

From my chair, it's hard to know how much of this is beginning to slip into conspiracy theory nut-land and how much could actually be real/truth.
Curious, what specific 'conspiratorial' evidence thus far do you consider fact versus supposition?

I don't. See my post above.

EpochTimes? Why is this the place reporting on the exculpatory evidence on Page, Flynn, etc? RealClear Investigations? Who the hell are they?
fasthorse05
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Wildcat said:

Quote:

FACTS

I think the biggest challenge in 2018 is knowing what these actually are. There is really no reliable, trustworthy news outlet available any longer.

There has always been bias in media. That is unavoidable as we all bring our own perspective to anything we observe; it's human nature. But today's outlets, from both sides of the political spectrum and from traditional and non-traditional sources, are engaged in what I will call "inductive reporting". That is to say, they already have a conclusion and then run around collecting the thoughts and data points that support whatever it is they have decided to report.

So when we say "FACTS", I am not convinced that is what we are actually seeing or if we are simply seeing the "facts" that have been selectively chosen to support a predetermined conclusion.



It does seem like that. My opinion is that facts do come out, but it's similar to a Venn diagram, in that you'll have 60% of them reported, or included, and the other 40% will be in the other circle.

The only time I really get sideways when someone uses the term "alternative facts". To me, there aren't any alternative facts.

IF the information we've seen in the last 24 hours is correct, then we may be really close to some major movement in this little case of deception.
Hate is how progressives sustain themselves. Without hate, introspection begins to slip into the progressive's consciousness, threatening the progressive with the truth: that their ideas and opinions are illogical, hypocritical, dangerous, and asinine.
This is backed by data.
Patentmike
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Wildcat said:

Quote:

FACTS

I think the biggest challenge in 2018 is knowing what these actually are. There is really no reliable, trustworthy news outlet available any longer.

There has always been bias in media. That is unavoidable as we all bring our own perspective to anything we observe; it's human nature. But today's outlets, from both sides of the political spectrum and from traditional and non-traditional sources, are engaged in what I will call "inductive reporting". That is to say, they already have a conclusion and then run around collecting the thoughts and data points that support whatever it is they have decided to report.

So when we say "FACTS", I am not convinced that is what we are actually seeing or if we are simply seeing the "facts" that have been selectively chosen to support a predetermined conclusion.


Here are two very key facts.

Gorsuch
Kavanaugh

Senator Sasse was dead on when he talked about unaccountable agencies making our laws rather than an accountable congress. I thought "draining the swamp" was just campaign hyperbole but I've realized since the Gorsuch nomination that Trump meant it. Once Kavanaugh gets confirmed, I think we'll be close.

How does this relate to the "conspiracy"? Motive. Lots of admin agency personnel make lots of money after gov't employment through consulting, lobbying, etc. If Congress is forced to actually legislate, those post gov't jobs become much less common and lucrative. Trump is literally threatening their rice bowl, so why wouldn't they oppose him as a group.

As far as McCabe, Strzok, Comey, Ohr...there are enough ethical issues piled up (substantial conflicts of interest that were ignored) that its fair to speculate on what they thought was so important to commit those ethical faux pas (what's the plural of "pas"?). However, the "junta" is not necessary to drive the broader resistance to Trump's initiatives and I don't assume the two are connected.

Anyway, hope that puts a little more perspective into these discussions for you.

Oh, and BTHO Clemson.
PatentMike, J.D.
BS Biochem
MS Molecular Virology


RoscoePColtrane
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Let me boil it down for you

  • I posted an image of a tweet
  • You said it had to be fake
  • I posted the live tweet to satisfy the accusation
  • You teleport yourself to conspiracy theories and narratives, suggestibility of a formalized Coup d'etat., from a "cutesy emoticon"

Good luck to you in your future endeavors, I'll not waste anymore of your precious time
Never take a hostage you aren't willing to shoot,
Remember, America doesn’t negotiate with terrorists.
Code 7 10-42
(Removed:11023A)
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RoscoePColtrane said:





The Twitter replies to him are awesome......ALL are against that d**k
Wildcat
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Why the hell are you so wound-up?
aggiehawg
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Quote:

The narrative forming on this thread (and from the NYT OpEd) is that there is a formalized collection of bureaucrats and appointees actively working to undermine the Administration. I don't mean leaks that embarrass Trump; I mean an active effort to thwart policy initiatives and have him removed from office by intentionally interfering with the wishes of the President and his senior advisers. Someone on this thread has even trotted out the term "junta". On a related thread, one poster is fantasizing about FBI officials being perp-walked in the run-up to mid-terms.

From my chair, it's hard to know how much of this is beginning to slip into conspiracy theory nut-land and how much could actually be real/truth.
First, I presume you are referring to the Q thread. The posts on that thread are primarily sourced to info on the 4 and 8 chan information. This thread has posted sources from all over the place from both MSM, the blogosphere and official government documents from court pleadings and reports from Congressional committees and the Inspector General's office. If you cannot perceive the difference there, then I am wasting my time addressing you.

However, you are generally a good poster so I will make the effort. Ask yourself the question why would the New York Times publish an anonymous Op-ed going down the coup-conspiracy rabbit hole?? (If we have been the crazy ones, in your view, for the last 9 months this thread has been in existence, why did the NYT join in now?)

The general maxim to never ascribe animus to actions that just as easily could be explained as incompetence goes double for government bureaucracies. So caution is always a good idea until facts are revealed indicating otherwise. After reading the Strzok/Page texts, Brennan and Comey's tweets and statements, for examples, can you deny there is strong evidence of a palpable animus against Trump contained therein?

After reading the unredacted portions of the FISC findings of improper and unauthorized access to raw NSA meta-data uncovered by Admiral Rogers and confirmed by Judge Collyer, do you still doubt that our government agencies including the FBI/DOJ and to a lesser extent, the CIA, were engaged in conduct that violated their own internal procedures and most likely federal law?

Do you believe the upper levels of the FBI/DOJ completely botched the Hillary email investigation on purpose to protect her? Or do you believe she was just "careless"? If the former, then that is obstruction of justice and corruption.

The FBI narrative of the origins of Crossfire Hurricane has developed as many holes as swiss cheese, the Mueller investigation has been a bust in developing a scintilla of evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia (his original mandate), there is ample evidence of animus, repeated violations of procedures and federal law, corruption at the highest levels of the FBI/DOJ and WE are the crazy ones??

Really?
coyote68
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Wildcat said:

Why the hell are you so wound-up?


I speak for me, only me.

I have zero tolerance for individuals who conspire to remove the POTUS by illegal means and methods. I have less tolererance for folks who defend or attempt to minimize those illegal criminal actions that deserve charges of sedition.

That is why I am wound up. I'm wound up about everything. Comey and his criminal buddies should be tried by a military tribunal. Nike needs to file Chapter 7. The NY Times is Pravda.

BTHO clemson!!!!

coyote68
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The NYT op-ed is pure fiction. It is part of the many fictions that have been and are being used to take down the POTUS. The Robert Mueller SC is the same thing,

The person that wrote it does not work for Trump and most likely is an attorney that works for one of the leftist entities that are trying to destroy our Constitutional government.

The piece is pure fiction.

How do I know? There is no middle ground in this fight. The person that wrote it wants you to believe there is a middle ground. That is a lie.
Houston Lee
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This was interesting info about Nellie Ohr and her sudden HAM Radio License that she got...
Quote:

I searched Ham license holders to see if I could find anything that stood out. The most interesting find was a certain NYTimes employee (not a reporter) who got a license on the same day as Nellie. Also lived in the same town as Nellie did previously (and Carter Page too). He also ended up moving a few miles away from the Ohrs in Virginia after the election. I won't put a name because I don't want it to show up in google (in case I'm either wrong or right!) but that should be plenty to find him if anyone is interested. Social media posts confirm full blown TDS. It's impossible to definitively say that there is a connection but those are some interesting coincidences.
Wildcat
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I certainly appreciate your willingness to suffer a fool such as myself. I have not opened the Q thread in months. Perp-walk fantasy can be found here.

I don't think anyone denies that there is a great deal of animus towards Trump inside the beltway. His biggest crime was winning the election on a platform that included calling everything inside the beltway a swamp. So it's no surprise to anyone that he is detested by long-time DC insiders.

That bureaucrats inside federal agencies would push-back on an unfriendly administration is nothing new. Battles between NIH, EPA, DOE and W's administration were epic. But what is being suggested now goes far beyond anything like that.

I don't question the authenticity of the bulk of the documents shared on this thread. But I also don't see them being reported or discussed on any of the news outlets I regularly view (CNN, NPR). It is as if these things simply don't exist. Should you and the others direct a young, ambitious reporter to this thread?

You ask a great question. Why did the NYT publish that OpEd?. My leftist friends immediately took it as more evidence of "bad Trump", something they already knew. It has me scratching my head. Does it not play right into the hand of Trump, who has been claiming "deep state conspiracy" since before inauguration? Is the plug on the swamp actually about to be pulled? What game are they playing?



aggiehawg
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coyote68 said:

The NYT op-ed is pure fiction. It is part of the many fictions that have been and are being used to take down the POTUS. The Robert Mueller SC is the same thing,

The person that wrote it does not work for Trump and most likely is an attorney that works for one of the leftist entities that are trying to destroy our Constitutional government.

The piece is pure fiction.

How do I know? There is no middle ground in this fight. The person that wrote it wants you to believe there is a middle ground. That is a lie.
I am viewing it in the exact opposite way. The NYT is tacitly confirming their belief that there is a "Deep State" ( for lack of a better term) working against Trump. They vouched for their source. By that action, they suggest they are a part of it as they are well aware from their other sources.

This Op-ed is a new version of the pee-pee tape but it inadvertently confirms there is an organized Resistance within the federal government. It may be completely made up but if it is just something the editorial board cooked up themselves, it sure went in a weird direction that I don't believe they thought through.
aggiehawg
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Quote:

You ask a great question. Why did the NYT publish that OpEd?. My leftist friends immediately took it as more evidence of "bad Trump", something they already knew. It has me scratching my head. Does it not play right into the hand of Trump, who has been claiming "deep state conspiracy" since before inauguration? Is the plug on the swamp actually about to be pulled? What game are they playing?
Exactly. Why did they decide to go down that hole now? Does the alleged wire-tapping of the Trump campaign/White House now appear more likely or less likely? Does the Mueller investigation appear more or less a solely political exercise designed to use the justice system, FISA and other activities to gather evidence for impeachment?

When you have a moment, watch this short clip of Evelyn Farkas and ask yourself what she is obliquely referring to.


ThunderCougarFalconBird
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Wildcat said:

I don't question the authenticity of the bulk of the documents shared on this thread. But I also don't see them being reported or discussed on any of the news outlets I regularly view (CNN, NPR). It is as if these things simply don't exist. Should you and the others direct a young, ambitious reporter to this thread?
I'll post links when I have a moment. There is credible fuel for the fire that at least CNN is on the payroll and is basically running sponsored content for the Democrats.
Quote:

You ask a great question. Why did the NYT publish that OpEd?. My leftist friends immediately took it as more evidence of "bad Trump", something they already knew. It has me scratching my head. Does it not play right into the hand of Trump, who has been claiming "deep state conspiracy" since before inauguration? Is the plug on the swamp actually about to be pulled? What game are they playing?
This is exactly the right question to ask.

Here's my guess: As I've stated elsewhere, the media can't control Trump like they can other Republicans because he is amoral and the voters voted for him in that condition. So my best guess is that (1) the OpEd was written by the NYT editorial board (with heavy contributions/consultation from Democrat strategists and consultants) in an attempt to alienate Trump voters by trying to convince him that those close to him think he's crazy.

The timing during the Kavenaugh confirmation hearings seems to make sense.
Agnzona
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This is all just more proof that the federal government needs to be disassembled as we know it. Think tanks need to start working on proposals how that would actually work.
Wildcat
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I've seen that clip before. It's unclear what she is insinuating. She really wanted to talk more, but became growingly careful as that minute progressed. The phrase "if the Trump staff knew how what we knew what we knew " is key.

It may not mean it, but it sure sounds like an admission that they knew what they were doing was illegal. If you want to believe that Obama was listening-in on Trump campaign communications, a clip like that will certainly raise eyebrows.
benchmark
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TurkeyBaconLeg said:

This was interesting info about Nellie Ohr and her sudden HAM Radio License that she got..
What was Nellie Ohr's security status while employed at Fusion GPS?
aggiehawg
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Agnzona said:

This is all just more proof that the federal government needs to be disassembled as we know it. Think tanks need to start working on proposals how that would actually work.
No. Think tanks need to be disbanded. That's where these dumb bureaucrats come from in the first place. Think tanks are the source of this insanity in this instance. Great gig though. Get paid millions to sit around gazing at your own navel all day.
FriscoKid
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Quote:

I don't question the authenticity of the bulk of the documents shared on this thread. But I also don't see them being reported or discussed on any of the news outlets I regularly view (CNN, NPR). It is as if these things simply don't exist. Should you and the others direct a young, ambitious reporter to this thread?

You can't be serious. It's been this way for decades and it's even worse now. The main stream media is functioning like state run media in the way it covers the news. They don't care about reporting the news. They are pushing an agenda and have been for a long time.
Secolobo
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FriscoKid said:

Quote:

I don't question the authenticity of the bulk of the documents shared on this thread. But I also don't see them being reported or discussed on any of the news outlets I regularly view (CNN, NPR). It is as if these things simply don't exist. Should you and the others direct a young, ambitious reporter to this thread?

You can't be serious. It's been this way for decades and it's even worse now. The main stream media is functioning like state run media in the way it covers the news. They don't care about reporting the news. They are pushing an agenda and have been for a long time.
....proven by their non-existent ratings. The are in it to push an agenda, not make a profit.
Can I go to sleep Looch?
aggiehawg
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Wildcat said:

I've seen that clip before. It's unclear what she is insinuating. She really wanted to talk more, but became growingly careful as that minute progressed. The phrase "if the Trump staff knew how what we knew what we knew " is key.

It may not mean it, but it sure sounds like an admission that they knew what they were doing was illegal. If you want to believe that Obama was listening-in on Trump campaign communications, a clip like that will certainly raise eyebrows.
Agree. My personal belief is that she means FISA warrants and unmasking requests under 702, a/k/a "to and from" and "about" queries.

Many people do not fully understand how Title I FISA warrants work. Everything and I mean EVERYTHING is subject to being searched, both going forward and going backwards in time. And everyone in contact with Page are subject to further search of their communications and then people in contact with them under the two hop system. That's a ton of info being gathered on American citizens without a valid Article III court approved warrant.

Her statement about sources or methods being burned and then adding in that we have excellent intel on Russia, suggested that they had Russian sources for the collusion allegations. Yet, not a drop of that evidence has ever been disclosed. (By that I mean she was gilding the lily.) Which leads me back to the FISA warrants.

I use the plural for warrants because I have serious doubts that Page was the only one. Definitely Manafort and likely Michael Cohen is my suspicion.
drcrinum
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Trump is amoral? And that's why I voted for him? And that makes me what????

aggiehawg
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drcrinum said:

Trump is amoral? And that's why I voted for him? And that makes me what????


A pragmatist. As lousy of a candidate as Trump was he was still better than Hillary.

The evils of two lessers, if you will.
drcrinum
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Trump was a lousy candidate? Egad! He was the only bright light in the room IMO.
sam callahan
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Smells like stale popcorn in here.

(not a troll. Just a commentary on the power our overlords hold over us and the likelihood of it ever being reigned in)
benchmark
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Wildcat said:

I've seen that clip before. It's unclear what she is insinuating. She really wanted to talk more, but became growingly careful as that minute progressed. The phrase "if the Trump staff knew how what we knew what we knew " is key.

It may not mean it, but it sure sounds like an admission that they knew what they were doing was illegal. If you want to believe that Obama was listening-in on Trump campaign communications, a clip like that will certainly raise eyebrows.
That clip in full context .... "If the Trump folks found out how we knew what we knew about the Trump staff dealing with Russians they would try to compromise those sources and methods - meaning we would no longer have access to that intelligence"

Hmmm, and will those sources and methods be compromised if the FISA docs are declassified and found to be partisan at best and illegal at worse?
sam callahan
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Smells like stale popcorn in here.

(not a troll. Just a commentary on the power our overlords hold over us and the likelihood of it ever being reigned in)
aggiehawg
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drcrinum said:

Trump was a lousy candidate? Egad! He was the only bright light in the room IMO.
He was completely out of the norm was my meaning. Married three times, serial adulterer, Playboy, Manhattanite glitterati member.

But then the South Carolina primary happened and Trump was winning the counties that had gone for Huckabee in the previous election. That was a "Whoa!" moment for me. What is happening here?
Houston Lee
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benchmark said:

TurkeyBaconLeg said:

This was interesting info about Nellie Ohr and her sudden HAM Radio License that she got..
What was Nellie Ohr's security status while employed at Fusion GPS?
I believe she still was able to access the FBI/NSA database of FISA data and mine it for dirt. Later, Adm Rogers took away the access that contractors could use to get this data because he saw that about 85% of the access to this data did not follow the rules.
aggiehawg
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benchmark said:

Wildcat said:

I've seen that clip before. It's unclear what she is insinuating. She really wanted to talk more, but became growingly careful as that minute progressed. The phrase "if the Trump staff knew how what we knew what we knew " is key.

It may not mean it, but it sure sounds like an admission that they knew what they were doing was illegal. If you want to believe that Obama was listening-in on Trump campaign communications, a clip like that will certainly raise eyebrows.
That clip in full context .... "If the Trump folks found out how we knew what we knew about the Trump staff dealing with Russians they would try to compromise those sources and methods - meaning we would no longer have access to that intelligence"

Hmmm, and will those sources and methods be compromised if the FISA docs are declassified and found to be partisan at best and illegal at worse?
And who is the "we"?? The intelligence community of the United States? Or the Obama/Hillary ankle-biting cabal hell bent on impeaching Trump?
texagbeliever
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aggiehawg said:

drcrinum said:

Trump is amoral? And that's why I voted for him? And that makes me what????


A pragmatist. As lousy of a candidate as Trump was he was still better than Hillary.

The evils of two lessers, if you will.


I have come around to the idea that trump wasnt a lousy candidate. Trump was an indictment on conservatism in America with politicians who pander. The conservatives have floundered policy wise because they have elected pandering politicians who know what it takes to get elected, stay elected and can then do what is best for them.

Trump has many traits I dont find admirable but he has one that I think is an absolute must. He takes pride in being successful with his job and his job is to serve as President of the United States of America. Not as a black crusader, not as a world peace unicorn but as a man in charge of bettering Americans.
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