Jun 14, 10:24 AM EDT

Baptists to Weigh Public-School Exit Plan

By TIM WHITMIRE
Associated Press Writer

GREENSBORO, N.C. (AP) -- As concerns persist about how classrooms are handling subjects such as homosexuality and "intelligent design," some members of the nation's largest Protestant denomination want the Southern Baptist Convention to consider creating an exit strategy from public schools.

A committee at the Southern Baptists' annual gathering was scheduled to report Wednesday on a resolution that would urge the denomination to form a strategy for removing Southern Baptist children from public schools in favor of home schooling or education at private schools.

The group takes up the issue a day after it elected a new president, Frank Page. The 53-year-old pastor at First Baptist Church in Taylors, S.C., was supported primarily by younger pastors and others who felt marginalized by an older generation that led a conservative takeover of the church in the 1970s and 1980s.

Delegates at last year's annual meeting passed a resolution urging parents and churches to "to exercise their rights to investigate diligently the curricula, textbooks, and programs in our community schools."



"We are commanded biblically to train our children in the nurture of the Lord," said Roger Moran of Troy, Mo., who sits on the executive committee and offered the proposal with Texas author Bruce Shortt. "The public schools are no longer allowed ... to even acknowledge the God of the Bible."

Moran, who owns a company that makes construction supplies, is a father of nine children, ages 18 months to 18 years. All have been home-schooled or attended Christian schools, he said.

"Everything that I believe as a Bible-believing Christian is not allowed to be taught in the public schools," he said.

The proposal from Moran and Shortt, author of "The Harsh Truth About Public Schools," complains that curricula teaching that "the homosexual lifestyle is acceptable" are being implemented in public schools. It also criticizes a federal court ruling last year that banned the teaching of "intelligent design" - the notion that life is so complex it must have been created by a higher intelligence - in a Pennsylvania school system.

"Things aren't getting any better in the public schools," Moran said. "They're getting worse."

A similar resolution offered two years ago at the annual meeting did not pass. Past resolutions have affirmed support for home schooling and Christian schools, but the convention has never formally renounced resolutions affirming public education that were passed before the conservative takeover of the denomination.

wow. I attend a southern baptist church and i attended public school all my life. I made it out pretty good. I am on the fence with this one, as my wife and i have a 3 month old son.

gmf-

I dont think anyone is saying that if you are in the public school system, you will fail, or are going to be spiritually corupt.

They are noticing however, that the public school system is increasingly becoming anti-Christian....and think something should be done. As a Christian, I agree.

http://www.welchreport.com/bnews2.cfm?rank_cho=2294

Today's public schools are not the public schools that I attended, for sure.

I'm racking my brain to figure out how to NOT put my 2YO in a public school, especially middle and high school.

I'm still a college student, so I haven't fully experienced the real world yet but I think I've gotten a pretty good taste. Wouldn't it be a good idea to keep christian children in public schools so that when they are exposed to this kind of point of view they can learn how to handle it? In the real world, they will be exposed to all kinds of things- every kind of belief, every kind of prejudice. Isn't learning how to deal with this variety part of the "other education" that can be gained from attending public school?

I'm still quite a few years off from having children, but as of now, even as a Christian, I absolutely plan on having my kids attend public school. Again, I know I don't have the real world and parenting experience that some of you have, but this is just what I think.

Wow it is so amazing that public schools are considered a failure just because they don't teach Garbage like Intelligent Design as science and Racism/Bigotry toward people just because they don't fit into your perfect vision.

Just about every private school is religious based so it would be damn near impossible for me to send my children to a non public school that didn't require them to believe in some nonsense religion to attend. Yet being a product of public school I am glad I had the wide and diverse population of students and classes to choose from. I had honors classes, ROTC and participated in academic activities that few private schools offer. Yes I see that many public schools have problems but there are so many students attending public schools that turn out ok what other choice would you offer to those who can't afford private education.

Public schools are not anti-christian, most schools in San Antonio are attended by catholic and protestants so that is silly. They just ask that prayer not be forced on students. They can still pray and read bibles so the vision of public schools banning religion is silly.

Why do people think that if kids prayed in school that all the problems of teen sex, drugs, gang activity and poor studying would disappear? That is naive and shows a complete lack of understanding of what our society is like.

MechE - Your premise is false. My kids experience all of these things in private school as well. The big difference is that God is present to help them overcome the difficulties, whereas in public school God is anathema. And who wants to sacrifice their kids so that public schools can be saved, or better, or more fully funded? My kids come first, not the public schools.

Frankenstein - You are wise to think about that. Trust God, and He will surely show you a way to afford it.

while i agree that the curriculum in public schools is getting beyond sketchy, i think parents really do need to remember that simply placing your kids in a private school doesnt save them from the problems.

i went to public school, and i think i turned out fine, based on what my parents did at home. I know many people who's private school experience pushed them away from religion, and it was at least partly due to their parents thinking that they were being adequately educated at school, so they didnt get it at home.

its a tough one.

Do you really think that your kids are exposed to as wide a variety of people in a Christian private school than other kids in a regular public school? I find it very hard to believe that absolutely everything that a public school offers can be found in a private school. But maybe I'm wrong.

Before God was kicked out of the public schools in America, after being allowed in from the time of Jamestown (1607) to the 1960's, the biggest worry in public schools was juvenile delinquency, dropouts, spitwads, and the occasional cheater. Now, we have Columbine...

Mech-

I went to a large private christian school.

We still had suicides, drug addicts, alchoholics, etc, etc.

I'd venture to say that some of the problems were even worse, because of the money a lot of these kids had at their disposal.

But I also agree with 73.....there was a strong influence of God, that properly taught people how to cope, and deal with this type of influence.

texasag73

That story you use is an urban legend that for so long has been used without anyone ever doubting whether it was even true. It is naive to think that school violence is a recent issue, there have always been gangs and fights in schools. Heck there are stories of violence in the 19th century that resulted in teachers being attacked and killed by students.

It is nice to think about our past and what a wonderful rosy vision we tend to recall yet we seem to ignore the Jim Crow laws, segregation, unequal opportunities for the poor as well as the myth that prayer in school somehow made it a perfect and joyous place for all.

The one issue I will agree with is that many where better educated in the use of grammar and literature. It seems we are dumbing down our student body and it is a shame because education is the key to success in our world today.

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Here is an article about this myth....

http://fcis.oise.utoronto.ca/~daniel_sch/assignment1/1982davis.html

T. Cullen Davis constructs the school lists, giving life to one of the most popular urban myths of 20th century education


The history of education, as the history of many other fields, is full of urban myths. An urban myth is a story or a presumed fact that is often quoted and believed as true by many people but it is totally or largely fictitious.

Sometimes it is not easy to distinguish an urban myth from a true historical event. Here we call the attention of educators to a popular urban myth in the history of twentieth century education. It is the one that compares the school problems of the past and of today. The common belief is that schools in the first part of the 20th century had to deal with simple problems, such as talking, chewing gum, running in the halls, wearing improper clothing, making noise, not putting paper in wastebaskets or getting out of turn in line. The schools of the latter part of the twentieth century, instead, had to address more serious issues, like rape, robbery, assault, theft, drug abuse, arson, bombings, murder, suicide or alcohol abuse. We have heard this story so many times that we take it for granted, and it has become one of our unquestioned assumptions about schooling.

Is it true that schools of the past faced only trivial troubles, while present schools face much more significant problems? Is there any clear evidence or any serious research behind these comparisons? Is there any way to know if this was good research or an urban myth? These were not easy questions to answer, at least until Barry O'Neill, a professor of political sciences at the University of California, Los Angeles, decided to trace this comparison, which now seems natural, to its original source.

After some research, O'Neill was able to trail this comparison to the year 1982, and managed to find its original author. The creator of the comparison was identified as T. Cullen Davis of Fort Worth, a born-again Christian who devised the lists as a fundamentalist attack on public schools. When O'Neill asked him how he had arrived at his items, Cullen Davis admitted that he had not done from a scientific survey. O'Neill pursued the questioning one step further and asked Cullen Davis how he knew the top offenses in the schools in the past. "I was there," was Davis' reply. Not surprisingly, O'Neill then asked how he knew the current school problems. Davis' answered: "I read the newspapers."

Although this comparative list of school problems was not based on any research or even on a basic survey, O'Neill points out that many social, educational and political leaders (including senators, mayors, state education officials, journalists, university professors and deans) accepted the lists as factual. Moreover, O' Neill adds, during the late eighties and early nineties the lists became the most quoted "results" of educational research, and possibly the most influential.

On March 6, 1994, O'Neill shared his findings about the dubious truth backing the 'two lists of problems' in a short but interesting article published in The New York Times Magazine (pages 46-49) entitled 'The History of a Hoax'. After eliciting the facts, O'Neill makes the following comment about the lists and the intentions of those behind them:

In their nostalgic contrast of then and now, the school lists constitute jeremiad. On their face they are criticizing schools but their real target, like the jeremiad, is society in general. They place drugs, pregnancy, rape or suicide as problems in the public schools. But is a typical school more hazardous or immoral than its surrounding area? Blaming the schools is illogical, but is rhetorically right, since responsibility for schools falls on all Americans (p. 47).

Then, towards the end of the piece, O'Neill notes that the spread of the school lists proves that jeremiads are not in decline, and concludes with the following words of warning for educational policy-makers:

The lists are not facts but a fundamental expression of attitudes and emotions. They overlook the successes of American public education, its great expansion since 1900 and its high quality despite taxpayer resistance. The lists' broad sweep ignores that some public schools are devastated by violence and substance abuse and others hardly touched at all. They should not guide our choices on education policy.

Here is a page with a link to the full 1994 article The History of a Hoax by O'Neill in The New York Times Magazine.


Sources:

O'Neill, Barry (1994). The History of a Hoax. New York Times Magazine Section, March 6, 1994, pp. 46-49.

Personal communications with Barry O'Neill, April 2003.


[This message has been edited by Losman (edited 6/14/2006 10:00p).]

David Barton does a great job presenting the statistics of crime, teenage pregnancy, drop out rates, etc etc etc since prayer was removed from public schools.

It is surprising how worse things have gotten.

I honestly dont know how you can look at the education system from the 40's and 50's, and not see that things have gotten drastically worse since 1962

.....and T Cullen Davis might have made up statistics, but that doesn't mean things aren't worse.

I guess I'm on the fence on this one.

I don't like the way public schools are teaching sex education and all the politically correct curriculum with regards to alternative lifestyles.

However, the thought that my kid would be subjected to a lesson on intelligent design in a science class ticks me off as well.

In a perfect world I guess I'd home school.

What happened to good old writing, reading, and arithmetic? Why does all this political garbage have to be inserted into my child's education.

[This message has been edited by Johnny_Five (edited 6/14/2006 10:39p).]

There is absolutely no need for young children to be exposed to all of the negative, anti-christian, anti-authority, anti-respect attitude that society exhibits today. When you have children, I'd encourage you to train them, teach them the truth, and then send them off to battle. We don't send our military to fight without training, why would we send our children.

I don't agree that a person has to learn to "deal with" all of the things they might be exposed to in public school. In real life, you don't associate only with people your on age. In real life, you avoid bad situations. You don't embrace them so you can learn how to deal with it.

I reluctantly started homeschooling my children about 6 years ago. After several years of doing it, there is absolutely no way they would ever go to public school and probably not private school.

Besides avoiding all of the negative influences, there is absolutely no greater blessing than the relationship we as a family have developed. I would encourage everyone to do whatever they can to put themselves in a position where they can spend more time with their children. God has given these children to you for a short period of time. Be a good steward. Teach them to love the Lord and to
glorify Him.

Unbelievable. The way some of you categorize public schools you would think you were describing one of the "fine" establishments lining Richmond in Houston or NW Highway in Dallas.

If you want your little girl in to be taught all about sex with a banana and a condom from a teacher who can't even teach your kid how to read properly, then go for it.

My wife and I homeschool our children. It was born out of several things. I grew up in a small town and went to public school. She went to a private school in Houston. We were both uncomfortable with putting our children in a public school in Houston, where we live.

Both of us, as were probably many of you being TAMU graduates/students, were bored with school being taught to the class average when we learned the lessons quickly.

We have friends whose children have learning problems. They homeschool b/c the classes were unable to adapt to their child.

The religious aspect does play a part in our decision. We have friends whose children know many more curse words (and other things) than we did at that age. Our friends are shocked at the questions that are asked of them by their children b/c of what they heard at school. Why should you put your children in that situation if you don't have to?

We are not anti-public school. My mom is a third grade teacher back in my small hometown. We just don't feel public school is the best place for our children. To each his own, but each person should make that decision from a knowledgeable and educated position.

Yes, we should all take our children out of public schools. Afterall, they might be persecuted or have to learn to strand up for their faith. Also, we need to remove as much light as possible from the public schools, less other kids actually be influenced by Christian children.

Also, we need to get those few Christian teachers in public schools out, and get them into private schools, teaching. Afterall, they need to learn to live on 65% of what was already a crappy salary.

And we need to quit our jobs, afterall most of us work for the ungodly, anti-Christ, secular world, and form crappy, Christian companies that do inferior work for more money, but think that it's OK because our believer brothers will forgive our shoddy business practices.

Next, we should remove ourselves from the temptations of the world, and retreat into, dare I say it, a monestary where we can conspipate, I mean consentrate and meditate on the evil in the world.

Anybody checked out what the NEA agenda is lately? Why should I expose my kids to teachers who believe just the opposite of what the Church teaches?

"Homosexuality is not the only social issue that the NEA leadership has taken a radical, absolute stand on. The NEA has supported socialized medicine, statehood for Washington D.C., gays in the military, and abortion rights"

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/nea.html

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Yes, we should all take our children out of public schools. Afterall, they might be persecuted or have to learn to strand up for their faith.

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In elementary school? How strong was your faith at that time? If your 9 year old is exposed to pornography, how are you going to get that innocence back? Once they have a firm foundation, then if you believe public school is where God's wants your children, more power to you. But, it is naive, in my opinion, to send out inmature christian children with the idea that they will learn to defend their faith.

quote:

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Also, we need to remove as much light as possible from the public schools, less other kids actually be influenced by Christian children.

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Like above, if you children are mature in their faith and feel this is what you should do, then I would agree. But, understand who is influencing whom.

quote:

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Also, we need to get those few Christian teachers in public schools out, and get them into private schools, teaching. Afterall, they need to learn to live on 65% of what was already a crappy salary.

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Completely different issue. Not children.

quote:

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And we need to quit our jobs, afterall most of us work for the ungodly, anti-Christ, secular world, and form crappy, Christian companies that do inferior work for more money, but think that it's OK because our believer brothers will forgive our shoddy business practices.

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I agree with your sarcasm here. We should be good witnesses in our profession, and I think christians have a long way to go here.

[This message has been edited by Patriarch (edited 6/15/2006 8:52a).]

We started homeschooling for a lot of the same reasons and with the same view as levelag. My words are a little less guarded after midnight.

quote:

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Yes, we should all take our children out of public schools. Afterall, they might be persecuted or have to learn to strand up for their faith. Also, we need to remove as much light as possible from the public schools, less other kids actually be influenced by Christian children.

Also, we need to get those few Christian teachers in public schools out, and get them into private schools, teaching. Afterall, they need to learn to live on 65% of what was already a crappy salary.

And we need to quit our jobs, afterall most of us work for the ungodly, anti-Christ, secular world, and form crappy, Christian companies that do inferior work for more money, but think that it's OK because our believer brothers will forgive our shoddy business practices.

Next, we should remove ourselves from the temptations of the world, and retreat into, dare I say it, a monestary where we can conspipate, I mean consentrate and meditate on the evil in the world.

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I realize that was tounge and cheek (or at least I think it was...)

What does the Bible say about sin?....Flee from it.

I think taking kids out of public school and putting them in private school teaches them to be judgmental and pharisaical, looking down on the lowly sinner in "[sneer]public school[/sneer]." (The phrase "public school" should also be accompanied by a rolling eyes and/or lowered hushed tones).

Is that how you want your kids to turn out? Well, then send them to private "christian" school!

I just have one more thing to add, the problem with sin doesn't originate from the outside, it's a heart problem. I would personally rather raise a child who is exposed to "sin" and struggles with it than raise a child who has no idea of the sin within their own heart!

But then my kids are exposed to sin on a daily basis in my own home. I guess I need to send them off to live w/sinless people!

[This message has been edited by Mrs. Lovelight (edited 6/15/2006 9:25a).]

You're saying it's a 'heart' issue, which doesnt originate from the outside, so they're immune to it in the Public school. But if you send them to a Private school, they won't be immune to it, and will become judgemental?

Nice Reasoning. And fwiw-I'd rather work on my children not being judgemental, than a multitude of other things tempting them.


I dont think the point of the Baptists was to remove all Christians from Public school and segregate them.
They simply identified a problem, and want to take actions to fix it.




[This message has been edited by aggrad99 (edited 6/15/2006 10:13a).]

Amen 73 and the SBC!!

(Sidenote: IMHO, the SBC and The Catholic Church are the only 2 left that stand up and call it like it should be....We have different thoughts on the path to Salvation, but we can stand side-by-side and shoulder-to-shoulder on the Moral issues of the day!!)

I too saw this article this morning and my kids are in parochial school and will continue to be even if I take a second job and we continue to drive used the cars the rest of our lives!! IT IS CALLED SACRIFICE!!

We do without many things to afford the extra $1000+ plus per month tuition, but in return I am upholding one of my most Sacred duties as a Father.....I am giving my kids the tools to get to Heaven!!

The Father asks us to be stewards of their Salvation and what better way to Supplement what I and my wife do at home, and what the Church does on Sunday’s, than to put them into an additional 40 hrs/week of continued Christ-Centered Environment, and a very accelerated secular educational environment. And, if worse comes to worse (where no Catholic, or Non-Catholic Christian School for that matter, School is available) then, we have already decided I would quit my job, my wife would go to work, and I would home school (my wife would not have the patience for a full day of teaching, where I would keep order). But, we would also have to downsize in housing by purchasing a much smaller home that we currently have as her earning potential, where we live, is not as great as mine (although we do not live extravagantly partially because of our faith and b/c of my kids school cost).....

Bottom-Line: What ever it would take and whatever sacrifice to keep Christ in front of them nearly every waking moment of their lives is what we will do!

99:

No, our Lord did not ask us or command us to run or flee from sin or sinners, BUT, My Lord also did not ask my 7 year old girl and 11 year old boy to be The Light unto the World until they could COMPREHEND the world....I figure as with most things, that will happen around the age of 18.......Until then, what use or good could comes out of exposing them to the Secular CRAP that has inundated virtually all of public, secular schooling???

I just wish my own Catholic Church and her American Bishops had the courage of some of these SBC Leaders....God Bless them and May God give our Bishops to have the backbone and courage to do the same.



"And the Gates of Hell Shall Not Prevail Against It...."

texag_89

Mech - I don't need to stand in a fire to know that its hot. I don't need to be shot to know not to play with guns. Your idea that Christians are better after being exposed to sin uses faulty logic. The Bible is very clear on how we are to respond to sin - FLEE! Do not pass go, do not collect $200. FLEE! End of story.

If I as a parent know that my child has a less chance of being exposed to sin somewhere other than the public school, then I owe it to them to try and put in them in that place. But there is a huge difference between fleeing sin and abandoning sinners. We are to insulate ourselves from sin - not isolate (from the Purpose Driven Life).

so if you flee everytime you encounter sin how do you reach out to non believers and do what God tells you to do. Go to all nations and preach His word. i dont think you can do that if you flee all the time. thats the problem with mainstream religion these days. that dont operate in the real world. if you surround yourself by only christians then you will never help Gods army grow which is your duty. get out of your comfort zone and grow some.

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What does the Bible say about sin?....Flee from it.

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Then you should quit your job and run to the hills, but be sure they are Christian hills lest you be naturally corrupted.

Be in the world, but not off the world. One must balance that scripture with the one you quoted.

I couldn't go to a mall, store, or ever watch TV or see a movie because all are full of sin.
Shoot, even this forum can get somewhat sinful at times; I certainly hope you go to anothe site when that happens.

just a question but how do you flee from yourself. or are you perfect

brad-

My logical reasoning is not in any way faulty. You have failed to grasp the point I was trying to make. By being exposed to sin, Christians are able to witness to others. If you want to flee from sin, then I suggest you move to the moon or something. In this world, especially as an adult, every single one of us is exposed to sin everyday. I agree with TLR on this one. Go ahead and help your children flee if you want, and good luck to them fleeing when they get out into the real world.