Beyond my comprehension or knowledge of God. If you have it all figured out yourself, I'm all ears. Some things are far too big for our tiny brains.
Catholics Take On This Teaching of Justification
8,795 Views |
261 Replies |
Last: 8 days ago by FTACo88-FDT24dad
10andBOUNCE said:
Beyond my comprehension or knowledge of God. If you have it all figured out yourself, I'm all ears. Some things are far too big for our tiny brains.
This isn't the mystery of the Holy Spirit here. I'm asking you to explain how your belief system is eternally coherent with the fall of mankind.
You don't consider God the Father and his plans, purposes, and decrees mysterious in any way?
Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Was God surprised by what unfolded?
10andBOUNCE said:Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Was God surprised by what unfolded?
God is either the author of sin, or He isn't. If He intentionally created Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world, rather that it being a personal failing of their own, then He created evil rather than allowing for it to happen.
Calvin was shown this point blank and he simply refused to admit it.
10andBOUNCE said:Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Was God surprised by what unfolded?
I'll answer yours and you can answer mine. Of course not. If I record the Astros game and Jose Altuve hits a game winning home run, my knowledge of the fact doesn't have anything to do with his swing. You're confusing God's omniscience and his timeless nature as removing free will from Adam and Eve.
In your example. God brought Adam and Eve into paradise, told them not to eat the apple, then made them eat the apple, and then punished them and all of their progeny for eating the apple, then sent his Son as a sacrifice to repair the rift created when he made Adam and Eve disobey him, but the sacrifice was only efficacious for some people, as the others were predestined not to be chosen.
Is God just? Is God merciful?
Do you believe it is just or merciful to create people pre ordained to ECT hell?
And for the record, you have stated before that it was not just.
Do you believe it is just or merciful to create people pre ordained to ECT hell?
And for the record, you have stated before that it was not just.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Was God surprised by what unfolded?
God is either the author of sin, or He isn't. If He intentionally created Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world, rather that it being a personal failing of their own, then He created evil rather than allowing for it to happen.
Calvin was shown this point blank and he simply refused to admit it.
I wish Protestants could view all of this from a Catholic perspective.
33 AD to 16th century: Catholic Church defends teaching from heretics
16th AD to present - Random theologian has new thought that goes against established tradition, creates new sect. Rinse and Repeat ad Infinitum.
Vox Clamantis said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Was God surprised by what unfolded?
God is either the author of sin, or He isn't. If He intentionally created Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world, rather that it being a personal failing of their own, then He created evil rather than allowing for it to happen.
Calvin was shown this point blank and he simply refused to admit it.
I wish Protestants could view all of this from a Catholic perspective.
33 AD to 16th century: Catholic Church defends teaching from heretics
16th AD to present - Random theologian has new thought that goes against established tradition, creates new sect. Rinse and Repeat ad Infinitum.
My all time favorite fact of the reformation is that within 20 years Luther is railing against the anabaptists for trying to convert Lutherans with their own brand new doctrine. Sucks when your playbook gets used against you.
The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Was God surprised by what unfolded?
God is either the author of sin, or He isn't.
The only answer is that He is not
dermdoc said:
Is God just? Is God merciful?
Do you believe it is just or merciful to create people pre ordained to ECT hell?
And for the record, you have stated before that it was not just.
Not every thread needs to circle back to hell
Vox Clamantis said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Was God surprised by what unfolded?
God is either the author of sin, or He isn't. If He intentionally created Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world, rather that it being a personal failing of their own, then He created evil rather than allowing for it to happen.
Calvin was shown this point blank and he simply refused to admit it.
I wish Protestants could view all of this from a Catholic perspective.
33 AD to 16th century: Catholic Church defends teaching from heretics
16th AD to present - Random theologian has new thought that goes against established tradition, creates new sect. Rinse and Repeat ad Infinitum.
You're skipping over a lot of issues within the church there.
Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Yes they were in communion with God and they had the ability to follow the command they were given unlike us.
Adam freely chose to eat of the fruit and disobey God, and likewise God's sovereign hand was over the entire situation. Both of those have to be true, otherwise you don't have a fully sovereign God. Again, I cannot give you the harmony you're seeking. It's beyond me. If you find harmony, you're going to downplay one of the two sides, which I cannot do because it is not found in scripture.
I'm perfectly fine with the tension this leaves us in, and if anything, brings me to feel only more awe for God.
The Banned said:Vox Clamantis said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Was God surprised by what unfolded?
God is either the author of sin, or He isn't. If He intentionally created Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world, rather that it being a personal failing of their own, then He created evil rather than allowing for it to happen.
Calvin was shown this point blank and he simply refused to admit it.
I wish Protestants could view all of this from a Catholic perspective.
33 AD to 16th century: Catholic Church defends teaching from heretics
16th AD to present - Random theologian has new thought that goes against established tradition, creates new sect. Rinse and Repeat ad Infinitum.
My all time favorite fact of the reformation is that within 20 years Luther is railing against the anabaptists for trying to convert Lutherans with their own brand new doctrine. Sucks when your playbook gets used against you.
Got him!
Pierow said:Faithful Ag said:
St. Thomas Aquinas…
No scripture added. Why is that? Was Thomas Aquinas a canonized prophet? Sola Scriptura. I don't trust what any man says. Especially when whatever he says, doesn't have scripture to back up their point. It was a huge sticking point in the reformation. For a reason.
Where does scripture say that valid doctrine must be found in scripture?
10andBOUNCE said:The Banned said:10andBOUNCE said:Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Was God surprised by what unfolded?
God is either the author of sin, or He isn't.
The only answer is that He is not
Awesome. That means every sin I commit is MY choice and God COULD have stopped it, but chose to ALLOW me to make my choice.
The flip side is that God exerts such total control that, since He wanted my sin to happen, He made sure I committed it by His sovereign will.
I know we've gone over this before. This isn't some weird mystery or quandary to solve. God is in total control, and in a perfectly loving way, He unilaterally decided to give us some amount of freedom to choose Him or not. Whatever free will or choice we have exists because He unilaterally decreed it to exist. He could remove it with absolutely zero effort right now if He decided to
10andBOUNCE said:dermdoc said:
Is God just? Is God merciful?
Do you believe it is just or merciful to create people pre ordained to ECT hell?
And for the record, you have stated before that it was not just.
Not every thread needs to circle back to hell
But if ECT hell exists, isn't that the most important topic? What else is more important in your theology? Don't you believe salvation is primarily a way to avoid hell? And that is what election and predestination are all about? You have chided me when I said to present the Gospel as I see it, as a way to more abundant, joyful life. And said that would not make anyone become a Christian and implied that an element of fear was needed.
Seems as if you just don't want to talk about it. Which I understand. Even your theologians avoid talking about the concept of double predestination coupled with ECT hell.
I think the biggest disconnect is that we see salvation differently. I see it as an ontological not judicial process. Justification is followed by sanctification. I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.
I am curious, what do you think the main purpose of the Gospel is? To save us from hell or to establish the Kingdom of God on earth? Now. Jesus talked much more about the latter than the former.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Derm, I greatly appreciate and respect your takes, but I gotta be honest… Ironically, I've never seen someone talk about hell as much as you! Though I guess I'm not well versed in reformed circles so maybe it exists somewhere else too
TeddyAg0422 said:
Derm, I greatly appreciate and respect your takes, but I gotta be honest… Ironically, I've never seen someone talk about hell as much as you! Though I guess I'm not well versed in reformed circles so maybe it exists somewhere else too
I suffered from scrupulosity, an irrational fear of hell, and goes along with my OCD. Suffered from insomnia, depression, etc. Drove me to read and study for years on the subject. I will try to be less "full of hell" in the future. Thanks and point taken,
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
I do appreciate your prior comments about that if it is in fact real we SHOULD be highly motivated to enter into sharing the gospel always.
10andBOUNCE said:
I do appreciate your prior comments about that if it is in fact real we SHOULD be highly motivated to enter into sharing the gospel always.
Thanks. And I love you as a brother in Christ. Because of my scrupulosity the concept of God preordaining people to ECT hell is abhorrent to me. I can not get past it. And when theologians and pastors talk about it so glibly it makes me angry. So it is me and my problem. Will try to keep my comments off of hell.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.
Acts 2:38
Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.
Quote:
He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ
Where is THAT in scripture?
Exodus 34:7
"...keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."
Habakkuk 1:13
You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?
Nahum 1:3
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9
...since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...
"...keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."
Habakkuk 1:13
You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?
Nahum 1:3
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9
...since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.Quote:
He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ
Where is THAT in scripture?
Which part?
Acts 2:38
10andBOUNCE said:
Exodus 34:7
"...keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."
Habakkuk 1:13
You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?
Nahum 1:3
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9
...since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...
None of that stands for the proposition that God is compelled by some exigency of his nature to punish as was stated.
Pierow said:FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.Quote:
He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ
Where is THAT in scripture?
Which part?
I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.
God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him
God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.Quote:
He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ
Where is THAT in scripture?
Which part?
I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.
God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him
God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.
That is my problem also. Goes along with double predestination. Completely changes the character of God.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
10andBOUNCE said:Vox Clamantis said:
Adam and Eve are in communion with God
1. God warns them not to do something (strange if they literally have to do it)
2. They do it
3. They lose communion with God
Were Adam and Eve never actually in Communion with God? They couldn't have been if one of their actions ruptured communion with God.
Why would God tell them not to eat the fruit of the tree if they were predestined to eat the fruit from the tree?
Was God surprised by what unfolded?
Of course not. The question as always is that we differ on the character of God.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.
The idea that the Holy Spirit would work through believers to ensure that only the divinely inspired writings made it into the codex that became the Bible, but then said "hey guys, you're not going to understand a lot of this stuff, but I'm going to let you guys fight over it and splinter because of it" is again loony tunes. You've just made the case for the necessity of the Apostolic Church and the magisterium.
There is nothing just about creating people who bear the punishment of our forefathers with no chance of salvation. God is just in that through free will we can accept the free gift of grace, and overcome the punishment earned by Adam and Eve.
And yes, salvation takes work, because faith demands it. For some reason faith has been reduced to a one time academic acknowledgment of Christ as Savior, rather than a lifetime of doing what he actually told us to do.
There is no way we can ever get to the top of the mountain through our efforts, but Christ expects us to at least try, and he takes us the rest of the way.
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.Quote:
He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ
Where is THAT in scripture?
Which part?
I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.
God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him
God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.
My fallback position is always "what does the scripture tell us?". Scripture tells us that God is unchanging, he does not deny who he is, he is sovereign, he is love, and he has a very high standard. Perfection. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Think of the magnitude of what Jesus did. Why would he have gone through everything he did for us if God is just going to let things slide. He granted grace for sins for a time, but that wasn't the end of it. It had to be atoned for in order for his justice to be done. Christians often think about the punishment he took from the Romans and the crucifixion. But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross. We don't see sin In the way he does. We don't fully comprehend its grotesque nature, its destruction, nor God's complete detest for it. We are completely wretched, and we don't even see it. He does.
How did Christ describe Hell? He talks about it twice as much as he talks about heaven, and he gets very specific. Hell was not made for man. But mankind goes there if they are not in Christ. We've heard it before, unquenchable fire, agony, complete solitude, separated from God, the worm never turns, weeping and gnashing of teeth…doesn't sound pleasant does it? And it is eternal. God is not messing around. If you want chapter and verse, I would be happy to give those to you. It may help you understand the nature of God more.
One thing that we simply cannot do, is make up a god in our own mind. One to suit our own purposes. That would be breaking the second Commandment. It's idolatry.
Acts 2:38
Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.
The idea that the Holy Spirit would work through believers to ensure that only the divinely inspired writings made it into the codex that became the Bible, but then said "hey guys, you're not going to understand a lot of this stuff, but I'm going to let you guys fight over it and splinter because of it" is again loony tunes. You've just made the case for the necessity of the Apostolic Church and the magisterium.
There is nothing just about creating people who bear the punishment of our forefathers with no chance of salvation. God is just in that through free will we can accept the free gift of grace, and overcome the punishment earned by Adam and Eve.
And yes, salvation takes work, because faith demands it. For some reason faith has been reduced to a one time academic acknowledgment of Christ as Savior, rather than a lifetime of doing what he actually told us to do.
There is no way we can ever get to the top of the mountain through our efforts, but Christ expects us to at least try, and he takes us the rest of the way.
Why does he expect us to try? He tells us to be still and know that he is God. His yoke is easy and his burden is light. We rest in the work of Jesus Christ. That's the beauty of it. It's not a 50-50 scenario. He did the work, he gets the credit, he gets the glory. It's not of works lest any man should boast. It would be getting up to heaven, and saying "hey, we did it lord". That is utterly insulting. We don't understand the total depravity of mankind. We have no ability to even come close. He had to come down and take the punishment of God, the father. He accomplished that perfectly. That's what I rest in. That's what I have peace about. The striving is over for me. Just as the apostle Paul said, I live, but not I, but Christ who lives in me. That's salvation in a nutshell.
Every religion on the planet, except for Christianity says that your works will earn your way into heaven. True Christianity says there is no possible way you can earn anything. The work has already been done. To perfection. Praise God!
Acts 2:38
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.Quote:
He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ
Where is THAT in scripture?
Which part?
I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.
God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him
God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.
I have been mulling over this a bit and think that perhaps the two camps are at an impasse as it relates to the justice of God. While I agree that God is not accountable to some standard outside or above Himself, God is perfectly righteous and part of that righteousness is to always act perfectly just. God is not obligated to conform to a standard of justice outside of Himself. God can never be unjust. God is bound by His own promises and decrees - He never contradicts anything in His nature or a word He has spoken.
Part of the infinite goodness and truth you mention is no doubt His perfect justice. It is not merely an attribute but it is who God is to the core. God punishes the unjust because it is righteous and holy. Instead of saying God punishes freely, I believe the correct understanding to be that God shows mercy freely on all his Creatures, to those who call upon the Lord.
Pierow said:FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.Quote:
He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ
Where is THAT in scripture?
Which part?
I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.
God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him
God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.
My fallback position is always "what does the scripture tell us?". Scripture tells us that God is unchanging, he does not deny who he is, he is sovereign, he is love, and he has a very high standard. Perfection. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Think of the magnitude of what Jesus did. Why would he have gone through everything he did for us if God is just going to let things slide. He granted grace for sins for a time, but that wasn't the end of it. It had to be atoned for in order for his justice to be done. Christians often think about the punishment he took from the Romans and the crucifixion. But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross. We don't see sin In the way he does. We don't fully comprehend its grotesque nature, its destruction, nor God's complete detest for it. We are completely wretched, and we don't even see it. He does.
How did Christ describe Hell? He talks about it twice as much as he talks about heaven, and he gets very specific. Hell was not made for man. But mankind goes there if they are not in Christ. We've heard it before, unquenchable fire, agony, complete solitude, separated from God, the worm never turns, weeping and gnashing of teeth…doesn't sound pleasant does it? And it is eternal. God is not messing around. If you want chapter and verse, I would be happy to give those to you. It may help you understand the nature of God more.
One thing that we simply cannot do, is make up a god in our own mind. One to suit our own purposes. That would be breaking the second Commandment. It's idolatry.
.Quote:
But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross.
And THAT perspective turns God into an unjust tyrant and violates the most basic concepts of the Trinity.
10andBOUNCE said:FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:FTACo88-FDT24dad said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:Pierow said:Vox Clamantis said:
The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.
I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?
It's looney tunes
I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.
What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.
Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.
Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**
** your results may vary
As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.
God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.
Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.Quote:
He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ
Where is THAT in scripture?
Which part?
I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.
God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him
God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.
I have been mulling over this a bit and think that perhaps the two camps are at an impasse as it relates to the justice of God. While I agree that God is not accountable to some standard outside or above Himself, God is perfectly righteous and part of that righteousness is to always act perfectly just. God is not obligated to conform to a standard of justice outside of Himself. God can never be unjust. God is bound by His own promises and decrees - He never contradicts anything in His nature or a word He has spoken.
Part of the infinite goodness and truth you mention is no doubt His perfect justice. It is not merely an attribute but it is who God is to the core. God punishes the unjust because it is righteous and holy. Instead of saying God punishes freely, I believe the correct understanding to be that God shows mercy freely on all his Creatures, to those who call upon the Lord.
But of course, PSA has God doing exactly what you say he cannot:
Quote:
God can never be unjust. God is bound by His own promises and decrees - He never contradicts anything in His nature or a word He has spoken.
God allegedly pouring out his wrath on a perfectly innocent victim as though he was the most vile sinner who ever existed while simultaneously pretending that sinners were perfectly justified despite the reality of their complete lack of righteousness violates everything you said in the quoted statements. I don't understand how you cannot see that.
But you also said:
Quote:
Part of the infinite goodness and truth you mention is no doubt His perfect justice. It is not merely an attribute but it is who God is to the core. God punishes the unjust because it is righteous and holy. Instead of saying God punishes freely, I believe the correct understanding to be that God shows mercy freely on all his Creatures, to those who call upon the Lord.
I don't find that as problematic but I also think it needs more elaboration. God does punish sin, but His justice is always ordered toward redemption and holiness, not mere retribution.
God is perfectly just. Sin is real offense against Him and is disorder in the soul. Divine punishment is not arbitrary cruelty; it is the necessary consequence of turning away from infinite Good. As Scripture says: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). This is not God being actively vindictive. It is the intrinsic weight of moral reality. Reject the source of life, and you experience death. God life and death before us and offers each of us the grace sufficient for us to choose life but not every person responds to that grace by choosing life and so they choose death, which is experienced as "God's wrath" but it's really just the outcome of a choice. If you choose a path that is devoid of God's love and mercy then you experience the consequences of that choice.
God permits temporal consequences for sin: illness, broken relationships, social ruin, interior desolation. These often serve as mercy, a wake-up call drawing the soul back to repentance before eternal judgment comes. At death, unrepentant souls face eternal separation from God (hell), [sorry Derm] which is not torture inflicted from outside but the soul's own choice extended infinitely. The damned reject God; God honors that rejection.
Featured Stories
See All
11:20
10h ago
8.6k
The Loochador Podcast: Ags capitalize on opportunities in Week 2
by Billy Liucci
Aggies pick up one spot in the latest AP poll
by Richard Zane
10:23
7h ago
2.2k
Game Highlights: Texas A&M 48, Arizona State 20
by Andrew Wu
Defense leads second-half scoring surge in A&M's 28-point win
by Olin Buchanan
Learned, Loved, Loathed: Texas A&M 48, Arizona State 20
by Olin Buchanan
@coopercuffe
Looch , what were you seeing in fall camp? (Marrow/owens)
in Billy Liucci's TexAgs Premium
88