CrackerJackAg said:

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I'm trying to do better about being less inflammatory and combative on Texags …

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Amen. I'm trying to be less guilty of this as well. I sometimes feel we are behaving much like the pharisees did arguing about the law and failing to serve the people. We would better serve God's kingdom by spending our time and energy in sharing the Good News to individuals in our community, at our work, and in our families who don't know God's love. We won't disqualify ourselves by lack of knowledge but we can disqualify ourselves by a lack of love.



"34 I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are My disciples: if you have love for one another." -John 13:34-35

CrackerJackAg said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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This is a short teaching on Rome's view of justification. Curious Catholics thoughts. Did he get anything wrong?

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7KRlmt9TLD6IVx15asGITP?si=d4KtChsvStqO7UE13uAhBA&utm_source=copy-link

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R.C. Sproul is the literal worst.

Reformed theology spent five centuries arguing against Roman Catholic legalism by inventing an equally novel hyper-juridical legalism of its own.

From the Orthodox perspective the entire Protestant v. Catholic debate is just two sides of the same late-medieval Latin coin.

The protestants correctly sensed Rome had introduced innovations, but their "solution" was to invent an entirely new theological paradigm from scratch pulled straight from their smelly, dark age asses.

I'm trying to do better about being less inflammatory and combative on Texags but come on man you brought up RC Sproul. This isnt on me…

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Me reading this post

Vox Clamantis said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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This is a short teaching on Rome's view of justification. Curious Catholics thoughts. Did he get anything wrong?

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7KRlmt9TLD6IVx15asGITP?si=d4KtChsvStqO7UE13uAhBA&utm_source=copy-link

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R.C. Sproul is the literal worst.

Reformed theology spent five centuries arguing against Roman Catholic legalism by inventing an equally novel hyper-juridical legalism of its own.

From the Orthodox perspective the entire Protestant v. Catholic debate is just two sides of the same late-medieval Latin coin.

The protestants correctly sensed Rome had introduced innovations, but their "solution" was to invent an entirely new theological paradigm from scratch pulled straight from their smelly, dark age asses.

I'm trying to do better about being less inflammatory and combative on Texags but come on man you brought up RC Sproul. This isnt on me…

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Me reading this post

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Sorry… RC Sproul's just brings out the worst.

Vox Clamantis said:

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Pierow said:

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Vox Clamantis said:

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Pierow said:

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Vox Clamantis said:

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Pierow said:

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The Banned said:

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Pierow said:

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The Banned said:

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Pierow said:

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The Banned said:

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You don't even know why you believe those particular books are divinely inspired. If you can't answer that, I could see why the rest seems convoluted to you, and rather simple to the rest of us.

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Nice strawman. It's plain English. It's beautiful, and simple. It's a free gift. Not through works lest any man should boast.

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It's not a strawman. You have yet to explain why you think that God divinely protected these guys. You say 'of course God got His word out" but that still doesn't answer why you think THESE PARTICULAR words are His. Why not the Quron? Why not the BoM?

So let me help you: The men who officially recognized the canon are the men who said they had divine protection through the apostolic tradition, handed down to them through apostolic succession via ordination. The claim of divine protection comes from them. The bible does not say it. You put your trust in their word.

Hopefully you're capable of seeing that. And to be clear, I don't think that a bad thing. I do it too, but it's because I believe Jesus gave them authority to lead His Church into all truth through the Holy Spirit.

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That has no bearing on salvation, how you acquire it, and why it is kept by the believer. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. You either believe it, or not.

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Dude. You say these words are how we can KNOW we have salvation. Whether or not these are the actual words of God have 100% EVERYTHING to do with salvation in that context

You have spent 20 years studying something without having any idea of why you think it is what it is, which explains why you would lob the serious insults you have at Catholics.

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I don't like exercises in naval gazing. I was given the promised gift of, and received, the Holy Spirit. He guides me through all scripture. I trust no man.

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Pope Pierow I claiming to have private revelation from the Holy Spirit. We have one Pope, Protestantism has millions.

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Oddly enough, Pope isn't mentioned in scripture anywhere. Neither is Pontiff, Cardinal, nun, that it has to be based anywhere on a particular piece of property in Rome, or anything else. It appears you take the Bible as secondary. To protestants, it is the only thing. God's word is not man's to embellish.

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Except for the doxology added to the KJV, no? And the books that you removed from the Old Testament. And the books the original Protestant Luther tried to remove from the New Testament. Yes, very sacred to Protestants.

Didn't you mention that the word "trinity" is never mentioned in scripture earlier?

Forget Rome though, can you show me your ancient Protestant Churches in the Holy Land? Why are all these Churches, which have been saying the same Mass over 1000 years before the reformation, all Catholic or Orthodox?

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The books were never omitted. Even the Hebrews didn't have it in their canon. It was added so that the Catholic Church could support some of their beliefs. And again, you're adding to with a doxology.

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Why do we care what the Hebrews had in their canon? The Bereans had it in their canon, the Greek speaking Jews like St. Paul had it in their canon.

You're saying that St Augustine and St Paul considered them Canon, but the old Hebrews didn't, so you're siding with the Jews against the Christians?

Also, how did we add them? The Orthodox, who split 500 years before the Protestants have them in their Bible, so how did we add them?

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I would love to see the evidently proof that the Bareans or and Paul had it in their canon. Given Paul's high position prior to conversion assumes that he read it, but it was not considered scripture by the Hebrews. You know, the ones actually in charge with the keeping of God's word? Justify your anti-biblical Catholic traditions all you like. That's something you're going have to deal with someday before Christ. I'll stick with scripture. The Holy Spirit will guide me.

Faithful Ag said:

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Pierow said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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CWeezy17 said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Is it true that Catholics believe they lose their justification if they commit mortal sin?

Is it true that if that happens, you must be re-justified through the sacrament of penance - genuine confession to a priest who then absolves you and then complete works of satisfaction?

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Terminology is a MAJOR issue here. Your question implies we have the same understanding/meaning/
usage/definition of the word Justification. We do not.

This is exactly what I meant when I said RC Sproul is conflating Justifaction with Catholic teaching on salvation. He is wrong.


ETA: Salvation is not something we possess or can lose because we are not judged until we die. Salvation is a process.

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To me this just sounds like trying to sidestep the question. We can use words differently, but you understand what the point is. Catholics believe if you die in a state of mortal sin you would not go to heaven right away, thus you are not saved at that moment, correct? Use whatever terminology you want.

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Catholics believe that if you die in a state of mortal sin you have chosen to separate yourself from God and have turned away from God, placing your own salvation in jeopardy. What God ultimately decides is for God in His perfect justice and mercy alone to know.

Our eternal judgment is only either Heaven or Hell. There is nothing in between. None of us can know with certainty where we will be while we are still living, but rather that is made known to us at the moment of our death. Any attempt to lay claim to heaven before that day comes for you is presumptuous and leads many to a false sense of security. Live today for God and don't take tomorrow for granted. When tomorrow comes live that day for God too. And so on and so on. Finish the race and persevere to the end with God.

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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CWeezy17 said:

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Faithful Ag said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Is it true that Catholics believe they lose their justification if they commit mortal sin?

Is it true that if that happens, you must be re-justified through the sacrament of penance - genuine confession to a priest who then absolves you and then complete works of satisfaction?

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Terminology is a MAJOR issue here. Your question implies we have the same understanding/meaning/
usage/definition of the word Justification. We do not.

This is exactly what I meant when I said RC Sproul is conflating Justifaction with Catholic teaching on salvation. He is wrong.


ETA: Salvation is not something we possess or can lose because we are not judged until we die. Salvation is a process.

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To me this just sounds like trying to sidestep the question. We can use words differently, but you understand what the point is. Catholics believe if you die in a state of mortal sin you would not go to heaven right away, thus you are not saved at that moment, correct? Use whatever terminology you want.

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Catholics believe that if you die in a state of mortal sin you have chosen to separate yourself from God and have turned away from God, placing your own salvation in jeopardy. What God ultimately decides is for God in His perfect justice and mercy alone to know.

Our eternal judgment is only either Heaven or Hell. There is nothing in between. None of us can know with certainty where we will be while we are still living, but rather that is made known to us at the moment of our death. Any attempt to lay claim to heaven before that day comes for you is presumptuous and leads many to a false sense of security. Live today for God and don't take tomorrow for granted. When tomorrow comes live that day for God too. And so on and so on. Finish the race and persevere to the end with God.

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So Catholics believe judgement occurs at the time of death? And not when Jesus returns?

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At death is your particular judgement.

Judgement day is the final judgement/general judgement.

Everyone not living at the last day goes through both. This counters the idea that there is some kind of soul sleep where the dead aren't currently in heaven yet and are asleep until that day

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Is there any reason why catholic beliefs are so difficult and convoluted? It is actually quite simple.

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.""
John 3:36 NASB1995

It says HAS, not might have, could possibly have, or will have in the future.

""Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
John 5:24 NASB1995

Same here.


"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."
John 6:47 NASB1995

Same here.

"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
John 10:28 NASB1995

Same here.


"The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."
1 John 5:10-11 NASB1995

"God has given". Present tense.

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."
1 John 5:13 NASB1995

"that you may know that you have (present tense) eternal life".

How can someone be given anything eternal, but it proceeds to have an end?

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The verses you quote are PRESENT TENSE meaning the individual is in a current state of belief and relationship with God. If this is what you are saying then we might be able to find some agreement.

On the other hand, if you think that because you prayed the prayer at a junior high summer camp your salvation is eternally secured and cannot be lost or rejected then we are miles apart.

Look at the verses you quoted and their current, present tense. Slow down and read the actual verses…

I will bold what you seem to be glossing over

Quote:

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"He who believesin the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.""
John 3:36 NASB1995


"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
John 5:24 NASB1995


"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."
John 6:47 NASB1995


"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
John 10:28 NASB1995


"The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."
1 John 5:10-11 NASB1995


"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."
1 John 5:13 NASB1995


How can someone be given anything eternal, but it proceeds to have an end?

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The promise is made to those who believe. As in currently believing and not past belief. This is the Catholic teaching.

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Do you believe that Christ will finish the work he started in you? That he will not lose one that the father gives him? That no one can snatch someone out of his hand? Or the father's hand? Those are the words of Jesus. I have tried very hard to understand the Catholic position on this. Why would you want to work for your salvation? Especially since you don't have to.

747Ag said:

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Pierow said:

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Vox Clamantis said:

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Pierow said:

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Vox Clamantis said:

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Pierow said:

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The Banned said:

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Pierow said:

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The Banned said:

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Pierow said:

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The Banned said:

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You don't even know why you believe those particular books are divinely inspired. If you can't answer that, I could see why the rest seems convoluted to you, and rather simple to the rest of us.

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Nice strawman. It's plain English. It's beautiful, and simple. It's a free gift. Not through works lest any man should boast.

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It's not a strawman. You have yet to explain why you think that God divinely protected these guys. You say 'of course God got His word out" but that still doesn't answer why you think THESE PARTICULAR words are His. Why not the Quron? Why not the BoM?

So let me help you: The men who officially recognized the canon are the men who said they had divine protection through the apostolic tradition, handed down to them through apostolic succession via ordination. The claim of divine protection comes from them. The bible does not say it. You put your trust in their word.

Hopefully you're capable of seeing that. And to be clear, I don't think that a bad thing. I do it too, but it's because I believe Jesus gave them authority to lead His Church into all truth through the Holy Spirit.

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That has no bearing on salvation, how you acquire it, and why it is kept by the believer. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. You either believe it, or not.

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Dude. You say these words are how we can KNOW we have salvation. Whether or not these are the actual words of God have 100% EVERYTHING to do with salvation in that context

You have spent 20 years studying something without having any idea of why you think it is what it is, which explains why you would lob the serious insults you have at Catholics.

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I don't like exercises in naval gazing. I was given the promised gift of, and received, the Holy Spirit. He guides me through all scripture. I trust no man.

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Pope Pierow I claiming to have private revelation from the Holy Spirit. We have one Pope, Protestantism has millions.

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Oddly enough, Pope isn't mentioned in scripture anywhere. Neither is Pontiff, Cardinal, nun, that it has to be based anywhere on a particular piece of property in Rome, or anything else. It appears you take the Bible as secondary. To protestants, it is the only thing. God's word is not man's to embellish.

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Except for the doxology added to the KJV, no? And the books that you removed from the Old Testament. And the books the original Protestant Luther tried to remove from the New Testament. Yes, very sacred to Protestants.

Didn't you mention that the word "trinity" is never mentioned in scripture earlier?

Forget Rome though, can you show me your ancient Protestant Churches in the Holy Land? Why are all these Churches, which have been saying the same Mass over 1000 years before the reformation, all Catholic or Orthodox?

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We would all still be either orthodox or Catholic, if they hadn't gone absolutely crazy with adding to the scripture. Don't eat fish on Fridays, rosary beads, selling indulgences, holy water, saying the laity can't marry… and many others.

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Bro...

Fish Fridays... Abstaining from meat. Friday penance is great. Unite yourself to our Blessed Lord and His Holy Passion.

My rosary is a HR-15. A weapon for our times.

Indulgences... Yeah, simony is a sin and the German bishops were way off base with that. And dangit, why is it always the German bishops?

Holy Water... Highly recommend you get some Epiphany water.

Laity here... Been married 24 years. Parents, grandparents, and further and further back... all laity... and get this, they were married as well. Eldest daughter (also laity) is engaged to be married.


In saecula seculorum...

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I apologize. I misspoke. I was trying to post while actually doing work, that never bodes well. I meant clergy. However, I do agree with the wonderful things that the Catholic Church actually teaches. They are against killing babies, and they uphold the Trinity. Those two things are non-negotiable.

And oh yeah, you guys love babies. The more you have the better it is.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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This is a short teaching on Rome's view of justification. Curious Catholics thoughts. Did he get anything wrong?

https://open.spotify.com/episode/7KRlmt9TLD6IVx15asGITP?si=d4KtChsvStqO7UE13uAhBA&utm_source=copy-link

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No, he didn't. But I'm not Catholic, of course.

The Banned said:

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Pierow said:

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Do you believe that Christ will finish the work he started in you? That he will not lose one that the father gives him? That no one can snatch someone out of his hand? Or the father's hand? Those are the words of Jesus. I have tried very hard to understand the Catholic position on this. Why would you want to work for your salvation? Especially since you don't have to.

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The Catholic position is super simple. Those are God's promises about what He is going to do. He never promises we won't personally do something stupid and walk away from Him

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We do stupid things every day. We sin constantly. We are part and parcel of a fallen creation. The scripture says nothing can pry us out of the hand of Jesus, nor separate us from His love. And John says if you walk away, you never were among us. There are those on judgment day that Jesus will say "depart from me, I never knew you". He doesn't say, I once knew you, but you changed. Have you been born again? Without it, Jesus says, you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. You were born of the flesh, as we all were, but we must all be born of the spirit as well. Did you have any work to do in your own physical birth? Of course not. It's the same with being born of the spirit, it is a work of God. Then Jesus takes it further:

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.""
John 6:39-40 NASB1995

He will lose none. Not a single one. We play no part in that other than being the object of his work.

Even Paul is confident:

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
Philippians 1:6 NASB1995

Jesus began the work, and he will perfect it. Again, we play no part in that other than being the object of that work.

Pierow said:

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The Banned said:

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Pierow said:

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Do you believe that Christ will finish the work he started in you? That he will not lose one that the father gives him? That no one can snatch someone out of his hand? Or the father's hand? Those are the words of Jesus. I have tried very hard to understand the Catholic position on this. Why would you want to work for your salvation? Especially since you don't have to.

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The Catholic position is super simple. Those are God's promises about what He is going to do. He never promises we won't personally do something stupid and walk away from Him

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We do stupid things every day. We sin constantly. We are part and parcel of a fallen creation. The scripture says nothing can pry us out of the hand of Jesus, nor separate us from His love. And John says if you walk away, you never were among us. There are those on judgment day that Jesus will say "depart from me, I never knew you". He doesn't say, I once knew you, but you changed. Have you been born again? Without it, Jesus says, you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. You were born of the flesh, as we all were, but we must all be born of the spirit as well. Did you have any work to do in your own physical birth? Of course not. It's the same with being born of the spirit, it is a work of God. Then Jesus takes it further:

"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.""
John 6:39-40 NASB1995

He will lose none. Not a single one. We play no part in that other than being the object of his work.

Even Paul is confident:

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."
Philippians 1:6 NASB1995

Jesus began the work, and he will perfect it. Again, we play no part in that other than being the object of that work.

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Proof texting isn't going to work. There are numerous places in the NT (that we happen think is scripture for some reason) that warn of falling away from the faith. You know this, but you don't bring it up because it doesn't fit your view. In your view, they apostles spent a lot of time and ink warning people for nothing.

No, Jesus won't lose any of us. But unless you're willing to deny true free will (which you do) and make God the creator and impetus for sin (which logic leads your premise to), you have to take those warnings in the NT seriously and realize we can walk away. He didn't "lose" us if it were something He had not control over if He so wished. He "let" us do what we wanted and deny Him

ETA: "never" is often used in the sense of, if something isn't completed, then it essentially was "never" true. For example, "he never had what it took to make it in the NFL". Johnny clearly had what it took, and clearly could have taken a different track in life, but this is still a phrase people use about him. It said about many flameouts. That may not be the way you speak, but language isn't dictated by your personal preferences.