Quote:

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God allegedly pouring out his wrath on a perfectly innocent victim

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This would never happen. No one is innocent except for the spotless Lamb, Christ. Or is that what you are getting at?

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.

I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?

It's looney tunes

---

I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.

---

What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.

Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.

Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**

** your results may vary

---

As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.

God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.

Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.

---

Quote:

---

He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ

---

Where is THAT in scripture?

---

Which part?

---

I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.

God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him

God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.

---

My fallback position is always "what does the scripture tell us?". Scripture tells us that God is unchanging, he does not deny who he is, he is sovereign, he is love, and he has a very high standard. Perfection. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Think of the magnitude of what Jesus did. Why would he have gone through everything he did for us if God is just going to let things slide. He granted grace for sins for a time, but that wasn't the end of it. It had to be atoned for in order for his justice to be done. Christians often think about the punishment he took from the Romans and the crucifixion. But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross. We don't see sin In the way he does. We don't fully comprehend its grotesque nature, its destruction, nor God's complete detest for it. We are completely wretched, and we don't even see it. He does.

How did Christ describe Hell? He talks about it twice as much as he talks about heaven, and he gets very specific. Hell was not made for man. But mankind goes there if they are not in Christ. We've heard it before, unquenchable fire, agony, complete solitude, separated from God, the worm never turns, weeping and gnashing of teeth…doesn't sound pleasant does it? And it is eternal. God is not messing around. If you want chapter and verse, I would be happy to give those to you. It may help you understand the nature of God more.

One thing that we simply cannot do, is make up a god in our own mind. One to suit our own purposes. That would be breaking the second Commandment. It's idolatry.

---

Quote:

---

But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross.

---

.

And THAT perspective turns God into an unjust tyrant and violates the most basic concepts of the Trinity.

---

That's you judging God. That's not a good position to be in.

Pierow said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.

I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?

It's looney tunes

---

I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.

---

What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.

Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.

Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**

** your results may vary

---

As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.

God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.

Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.

---

Quote:

---

He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ

---

Where is THAT in scripture?

---

Which part?

---

I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.

God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him

God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.

---

My fallback position is always "what does the scripture tell us?". Scripture tells us that God is unchanging, he does not deny who he is, he is sovereign, he is love, and he has a very high standard. Perfection. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Think of the magnitude of what Jesus did. Why would he have gone through everything he did for us if God is just going to let things slide. He granted grace for sins for a time, but that wasn't the end of it. It had to be atoned for in order for his justice to be done. Christians often think about the punishment he took from the Romans and the crucifixion. But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross. We don't see sin In the way he does. We don't fully comprehend its grotesque nature, its destruction, nor God's complete detest for it. We are completely wretched, and we don't even see it. He does.

How did Christ describe Hell? He talks about it twice as much as he talks about heaven, and he gets very specific. Hell was not made for man. But mankind goes there if they are not in Christ. We've heard it before, unquenchable fire, agony, complete solitude, separated from God, the worm never turns, weeping and gnashing of teeth…doesn't sound pleasant does it? And it is eternal. God is not messing around. If you want chapter and verse, I would be happy to give those to you. It may help you understand the nature of God more.

One thing that we simply cannot do, is make up a god in our own mind. One to suit our own purposes. That would be breaking the second Commandment. It's idolatry.

---

Quote:

---

But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross.

---

.

And THAT perspective turns God into an unjust tyrant and violates the most basic concepts of the Trinity.

---

That's you judging God. That's not a good position to be in.

---

No one on here does not think God is sovereign. Very weak stuff used by Calvinists. Disappointed. Using the concept of the sovereignty of God to justify their theology.

Vox Clamantis said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.

I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?

It's looney tunes

---

I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.

---

What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.

Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.

Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**

** your results may vary

---

As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.

God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.

Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.

---

Quote:

---

He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ

---

Where is THAT in scripture?

---

Which part?

---

I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.

God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him

God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.

---

My fallback position is always "what does the scripture tell us?". Scripture tells us that God is unchanging, he does not deny who he is, he is sovereign, he is love, and he has a very high standard. Perfection. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Think of the magnitude of what Jesus did. Why would he have gone through everything he did for us if God is just going to let things slide. He granted grace for sins for a time, but that wasn't the end of it. It had to be atoned for in order for his justice to be done. Christians often think about the punishment he took from the Romans and the crucifixion. But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross. We don't see sin In the way he does. We don't fully comprehend its grotesque nature, its destruction, nor God's complete detest for it. We are completely wretched, and we don't even see it. He does.

How did Christ describe Hell? He talks about it twice as much as he talks about heaven, and he gets very specific. Hell was not made for man. But mankind goes there if they are not in Christ. We've heard it before, unquenchable fire, agony, complete solitude, separated from God, the worm never turns, weeping and gnashing of teeth…doesn't sound pleasant does it? And it is eternal. God is not messing around. If you want chapter and verse, I would be happy to give those to you. It may help you understand the nature of God more.

One thing that we simply cannot do, is make up a god in our own mind. One to suit our own purposes. That would be breaking the second Commandment. It's idolatry.

---

Quote:

---

But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross.

---

.

And THAT perspective turns God into an unjust tyrant and violates the most basic concepts of the Trinity.

---

That's you judging God. That's not a good position to be in.

---

It's not judging God, it's judging the 400 year old false God that you've had to construct to fit your belief structure. This false God created humans in his image, put them in paradise, told them not to disobey him, forced them to disobey him, punished them for disobeying him, punished all of their descendants for the original disobeying, sent his son (who was also God) to them, and then tortured him to death in order to repair the rift that he forced Adam and Eve to do, so that in the end a random sample of human beings created in his image would be saved, while others wouldn't, despite any agency in the decision.

Yes, using the gift of reason that God has given us, by virtue of our having souls, I can say that if what I described above is what you worship; it is not the Christian God.

Sounds like how the most virulent anti-Christian atheist would describe God.

I guess you've never looked into the historicity of the Bible. The incredible accuracy of prophecy, Jesus alone fulfilling over 132 specific prophecies. Or that the apostles all died claiming that they saw the risen Christ. All of them chances to deny it and spare their lives. They didn't. All of them died horrific deaths, except for John who was once boiled in oil. The extra biblical information, describing Jesus, primarily by Josephus a Jewish historian. There is no way a human being can come up with a book like this. Not only that, it was written by 41 different men over 1700 years time, on three continents. It all agrees, and it is backed up by archaeology as well. Men for centuries have tried to disprove the Bible. None of them succeeded.

Believe me, I was a virulent atheist Darwinist for half of my life. The Bible is completely true.

---

dermdoc said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.

I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?

It's looney tunes

---

I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.

---

What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.

Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.

Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**

** your results may vary

---

As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.

God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.

Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.

---

Quote:

---

He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ

---

Where is THAT in scripture?

---

Which part?

---

I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.

God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him

God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.

---

My fallback position is always "what does the scripture tell us?". Scripture tells us that God is unchanging, he does not deny who he is, he is sovereign, he is love, and he has a very high standard. Perfection. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Think of the magnitude of what Jesus did. Why would he have gone through everything he did for us if God is just going to let things slide. He granted grace for sins for a time, but that wasn't the end of it. It had to be atoned for in order for his justice to be done. Christians often think about the punishment he took from the Romans and the crucifixion. But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross. We don't see sin In the way he does. We don't fully comprehend its grotesque nature, its destruction, nor God's complete detest for it. We are completely wretched, and we don't even see it. He does.

How did Christ describe Hell? He talks about it twice as much as he talks about heaven, and he gets very specific. Hell was not made for man. But mankind goes there if they are not in Christ. We've heard it before, unquenchable fire, agony, complete solitude, separated from God, the worm never turns, weeping and gnashing of teeth…doesn't sound pleasant does it? And it is eternal. God is not messing around. If you want chapter and verse, I would be happy to give those to you. It may help you understand the nature of God more.

One thing that we simply cannot do, is make up a god in our own mind. One to suit our own purposes. That would be breaking the second Commandment. It's idolatry.

---

Quote:

---

But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross.

---

.

And THAT perspective turns God into an unjust tyrant and violates the most basic concepts of the Trinity.

---

That's you judging God. That's not a good position to be in.

---

No one on here does not think God is sovereign. Very weak stuff used by Calvinists. Disappointed. Using the concept of the sovereignty of God to justify their theology.

---

You can say it all you want but they are just words. Most Christians ultimately are more comfortable with the idea they are free and hold the cards in their own hands.

dermdoc said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.

I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?

It's looney tunes

---

I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.

---

What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.

Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.

Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**

** your results may vary

---

As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.

God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.

Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.

---

Quote:

---

He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ

---

Where is THAT in scripture?

---

Which part?

---

I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.

God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him

God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.

---

My fallback position is always "what does the scripture tell us?". Scripture tells us that God is unchanging, he does not deny who he is, he is sovereign, he is love, and he has a very high standard. Perfection. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Think of the magnitude of what Jesus did. Why would he have gone through everything he did for us if God is just going to let things slide. He granted grace for sins for a time, but that wasn't the end of it. It had to be atoned for in order for his justice to be done. Christians often think about the punishment he took from the Romans and the crucifixion. But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross. We don't see sin In the way he does. We don't fully comprehend its grotesque nature, its destruction, nor God's complete detest for it. We are completely wretched, and we don't even see it. He does.

How did Christ describe Hell? He talks about it twice as much as he talks about heaven, and he gets very specific. Hell was not made for man. But mankind goes there if they are not in Christ. We've heard it before, unquenchable fire, agony, complete solitude, separated from God, the worm never turns, weeping and gnashing of teeth…doesn't sound pleasant does it? And it is eternal. God is not messing around. If you want chapter and verse, I would be happy to give those to you. It may help you understand the nature of God more.

One thing that we simply cannot do, is make up a god in our own mind. One to suit our own purposes. That would be breaking the second Commandment. It's idolatry.

---

Quote:

---

But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross.

---

.

And THAT perspective turns God into an unjust tyrant and violates the most basic concepts of the Trinity.

---

That's you judging God. That's not a good position to be in.

---

No one on here does not think God is sovereign. Very weak stuff used by Calvinists. Disappointed. Using the concept of the sovereignty of God to justify their theology.

---

What do you do with this then Doc?

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."
John 6:44-45 NASB1995

Who does the drawing? Who does the calling? Who gives the Faith?

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

Pierow said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.

I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?

It's looney tunes

---

I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.

---

What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.

Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.

Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**

** your results may vary

---

As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.

God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.

Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.

---

Quote:

---

He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ

---

Where is THAT in scripture?

---

Which part?

---

I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.

God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him

God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.

---

My fallback position is always "what does the scripture tell us?". Scripture tells us that God is unchanging, he does not deny who he is, he is sovereign, he is love, and he has a very high standard. Perfection. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Think of the magnitude of what Jesus did. Why would he have gone through everything he did for us if God is just going to let things slide. He granted grace for sins for a time, but that wasn't the end of it. It had to be atoned for in order for his justice to be done. Christians often think about the punishment he took from the Romans and the crucifixion. But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross. We don't see sin In the way he does. We don't fully comprehend its grotesque nature, its destruction, nor God's complete detest for it. We are completely wretched, and we don't even see it. He does.

How did Christ describe Hell? He talks about it twice as much as he talks about heaven, and he gets very specific. Hell was not made for man. But mankind goes there if they are not in Christ. We've heard it before, unquenchable fire, agony, complete solitude, separated from God, the worm never turns, weeping and gnashing of teeth…doesn't sound pleasant does it? And it is eternal. God is not messing around. If you want chapter and verse, I would be happy to give those to you. It may help you understand the nature of God more.

One thing that we simply cannot do, is make up a god in our own mind. One to suit our own purposes. That would be breaking the second Commandment. It's idolatry.

---

Quote:

---

But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross.

---

.

And THAT perspective turns God into an unjust tyrant and violates the most basic concepts of the Trinity.

---

That's you judging God. That's not a good position to be in.

---

No one on here does not think God is sovereign. Very weak stuff used by Calvinists. Disappointed. Using the concept of the sovereignty of God to justify their theology.

---

What do you do with this then Doc?

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."
John 6:44-45 NASB1995

Who does the drawing? Who does the calling? Who gives the Faith?

---

Every hero of the faith laid out in Scripture was effectually called and drawn. Not one can you look back and credit the creature with obtaining salvation through faith. I'll hang up and listen for one example.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

God allegedly pouring out his wrath on a perfectly innocent victim

---

This would never happen. No one is innocent except for the spotless Lamb, Christ. Or is that what you are getting at?

---

Yes, that's what he's saying - it would be unjust to pour His wrath on the innocent Christ.

But where does the part that Jesus offered Himself for us come into play? What was going on on the cross if not His stepping into our place to receive the punishment we deserved?

Now do this
1 Timothy 2 3-4
2 Peter 3 9
God is sovereign. And desires all to be saved. To be honest, I am very tired of Calvinists thinking they are the only ones who think God is sovereign. Every Christian I know thinks God is sovereign. It is simply a way to justify your theology.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Quote:

---

God allegedly pouring out his wrath on a perfectly innocent victim

---

This would never happen. No one is innocent except for the spotless Lamb, Christ. Or is that what you are getting at?

---

Yes, that's what he's saying - it would be unjust to pour His wrath on the innocent Christ.

But where does the part that Jesus offered Himself for us come into play? What was going on on the cross if not His stepping into our place to receive the punishment we deserved?

---

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

---

Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

Pierow said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.

I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?

It's looney tunes

---

I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.

---

What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.

Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.

Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**

** your results may vary

---

As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.

God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.

Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.

---

Quote:

---

He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ

---

Where is THAT in scripture?

---

Which part?

---

I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.

God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him

God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.

---

My fallback position is always "what does the scripture tell us?". Scripture tells us that God is unchanging, he does not deny who he is, he is sovereign, he is love, and he has a very high standard. Perfection. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Think of the magnitude of what Jesus did. Why would he have gone through everything he did for us if God is just going to let things slide. He granted grace for sins for a time, but that wasn't the end of it. It had to be atoned for in order for his justice to be done. Christians often think about the punishment he took from the Romans and the crucifixion. But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross. We don't see sin In the way he does. We don't fully comprehend its grotesque nature, its destruction, nor God's complete detest for it. We are completely wretched, and we don't even see it. He does.

How did Christ describe Hell? He talks about it twice as much as he talks about heaven, and he gets very specific. Hell was not made for man. But mankind goes there if they are not in Christ. We've heard it before, unquenchable fire, agony, complete solitude, separated from God, the worm never turns, weeping and gnashing of teeth…doesn't sound pleasant does it? And it is eternal. God is not messing around. If you want chapter and verse, I would be happy to give those to you. It may help you understand the nature of God more.

One thing that we simply cannot do, is make up a god in our own mind. One to suit our own purposes. That would be breaking the second Commandment. It's idolatry.

---

Quote:

---

But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross.

---

.

And THAT perspective turns God into an unjust tyrant and violates the most basic concepts of the Trinity.

---

That's you judging God. That's not a good position to be in.

---

No one on here does not think God is sovereign. Very weak stuff used by Calvinists. Disappointed. Using the concept of the sovereignty of God to justify their theology.

---

What do you do with this then Doc?

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."
John 6:44-45 NASB1995

Who does the drawing? Who does the calling? Who gives the Faith?

---

I don't see the word elect in there. Do you?

"God is perfectly just. Sin is real offense against Him and is disorder in the soul. Divine punishment is not arbitrary cruelty; it is the necessary consequence of turning away from infinite Good. As Scripture says: "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). This is not God being actively vindictive. It is the intrinsic weight of moral reality. Reject the source of life, and you experience death. God life and death before us and offers each of us the grace sufficient for us to choose life but not every person responds to that grace by choosing life and so they choose death, which is experienced as "God's wrath" but it's really just the outcome of a choice. If you choose a path that is devoid of God's love and mercy then you experience the consequences of that choice."

The difference between yall and us is you think only some will choose death, that though He offers grace to all it's only sufficient for some, and we think everyone will choose death without the Holy Spirit intervening and that His grace is sufficient for all who receive it. He gives some of us mercy when we all choose death, by our choice might I add.

You're telling me that when we are like this:
Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

We just all of sudden said, "Meh, I'm tired of that, I'll obey God now."?

No, I don't think so, because it goes on to say it wasn't us but God:
Ephesians 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved

Sounds like God was the one doing the choosing, and unless the "us" means all, then it's only some of us.

Your way seems like you're throwing God a bone, giving Him an out, a helping hand. Can't put the "blame" on Him, He gave us a choice.

Don't you see the beauty and love in Him bestowing grace and mercy on us verses sitting back and hoping we decide to finally listen and obey?

(I messed up the coding on this one, please excuse my formatting debacle)

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

---

Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

---

No you don't. Do you believe he maintains the faith he has given you?

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

---

Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

---

No you don't. Do you believe he maintains the faith he has given you?

---

Of course. And every Christian I know believes that. His faith can not fail.

We are all Christians. There is no difference. There is no y'all and us.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

---

Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

---

No you don't. Do you believe he maintains the faith he has given you?

---

Of course. And every Christian I know believes that. His faith can not fail.

---

Every Christian does not believe in the perseverance of the saints.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

---

Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

---

No you don't. Do you believe he maintains the faith he has given you?

---

Of course. And every Christian I know believes that. His faith can not fail.

---

Every Christian does not believe in the perseverance of the saints.

---

Why are you trying to be devisive? Do you believe that if they don't believe that they are damned? And if not, why does it bother you?

dermdoc said:

---

Pierow said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

Pierow said:

---

Vox Clamantis said:

---

The fact that there are a sizable group of people who believe that God created Adam and Eve and forced them into disobeying him, thereby flooding the world with sin, contrary to his original plan and necessitating that his Son, die for a random sample who have some sort of get out of jail free car to go to heaven, is a caricature of the Christian faith.

I can't imagine how small the Calvinist Christ is, who would create everyone with an icon of himself in their soul, knowing them before they were formed in the womb, have the Holy Spirit sent down upon them so that they might make believers of all nations……for nothing. What sort of Good shepherd watches a sheep go away and says "I actually always knew he was supposed to go away" ?

It's looney tunes

---

I don't want to worship a God who I can completely understand or know exactly how he does things. But I will pay attention to him in what he says. And he says we are predestined. If you don't like that, that's on you.

---

What does your wants have to do with it? God sent his Son, who was also God, in our form, to live among us so that we would be able to know the unknowable.

Your sig is Acts 2.:38 every single thing listed in that verse is extra, window dressing, make believe. None of it efficacious in the least.

Why repent, why baptize, heck why EVANGELIZE? Hey guys, I've got to let you know about Christ and the amazing gift of salvation that he might have given you. No, this knowledge actually doesn't do anything for you if you're already saved, and only stands to tortured you if you crapped out, but I'm supposed to do it for some reason. Remember God is Love**

** your results may vary

---

As for my wants, I was simply addressing the question posed to me about the complex portions of scripture. Parts that we will not understand until we are face-to-face with Jesus. And I am OK with that.

God is love. He is also just. He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ. We evangelize because we are commanded to do so. If you would like, I could just post Acts chapter 2 in its entirety.

Christianity is the only religion in the entire world that says you cannot work your way into heaven. Your works are absolutely no help. One must be born again. Born of water and of the Spirit.

---

Quote:

---

He must punish all sin, and sinners who have not put their trust in faith in Jesus Christ

---

Where is THAT in scripture?

---

Which part?

---

I am mostly focused on the part that presumes that God is compelled to punish all sin. You might not have intended this, but as written it seems to say that God's nature demands that he punish all sin. While I certainly agree that sin is incompatible with a God who is love, that is not the same thing as saying that God's nature forces or compels him to do anything.

God is not compelled by an exigency of His nature to punish sin. Divine justice flows freely from God's will, not as a necessity imposed upon Him

God's nature is infinite goodness, truth, and being. His justice is an attribute, a perfection, but not a constraint. God does not punish because some force exterior to His will compels Him, nor because His nature mechanically demands it as a reaction. Rather, God punishes freely, as an act of His will that flows perfectly from His nature.

---

My fallback position is always "what does the scripture tell us?". Scripture tells us that God is unchanging, he does not deny who he is, he is sovereign, he is love, and he has a very high standard. Perfection. We are also told that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. Think of the magnitude of what Jesus did. Why would he have gone through everything he did for us if God is just going to let things slide. He granted grace for sins for a time, but that wasn't the end of it. It had to be atoned for in order for his justice to be done. Christians often think about the punishment he took from the Romans and the crucifixion. But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross. We don't see sin In the way he does. We don't fully comprehend its grotesque nature, its destruction, nor God's complete detest for it. We are completely wretched, and we don't even see it. He does.

How did Christ describe Hell? He talks about it twice as much as he talks about heaven, and he gets very specific. Hell was not made for man. But mankind goes there if they are not in Christ. We've heard it before, unquenchable fire, agony, complete solitude, separated from God, the worm never turns, weeping and gnashing of teeth…doesn't sound pleasant does it? And it is eternal. God is not messing around. If you want chapter and verse, I would be happy to give those to you. It may help you understand the nature of God more.

One thing that we simply cannot do, is make up a god in our own mind. One to suit our own purposes. That would be breaking the second Commandment. It's idolatry.

---

Quote:

---

But that wasn't anything compared to what God the father actually did to him on that cross.

---

.

And THAT perspective turns God into an unjust tyrant and violates the most basic concepts of the Trinity.

---

That's you judging God. That's not a good position to be in.

---

No one on here does not think God is sovereign. Very weak stuff used by Calvinists. Disappointed. Using the concept of the sovereignty of God to justify their theology.

---

What do you do with this then Doc?

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."
John 6:44-45 NASB1995

Who does the drawing? Who does the calling? Who gives the Faith?

---

I don't see the word elect in there. Do you?

---

"Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."
Romans 8:33-34 NASB1995


"For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."
Jude 1:4 NASB1995

LONG BEFOREHAND MARKED OUT FOR THIS CONDEMNATION.

"for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.""
Romans 9:11-13 NASB1995

"What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."
Romans 9:14-16 NASB1995

"And the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses."
Exodus 9:12 NASB1995


I don't know who turned you so hard against Calvinism. What part of TULIP do you disagree with the most?

Do you not agree that mankind is totally depraved? Do you believe those that are dead in their trespasses can make a "decision" for Christ? That they are able to or desire to seek him?

Unconditional election? Which is basically predestination, (or double predestination if you are RC Sproul and John MacArthur).

Limited atonement? Do you believe that Jesus died for the unfaithful as well as the faithful? He paid for the sins of unrepentant people? Are you a universalist?

Irresistible Grace? Do you believe that if God calls someone, they have the ability to resist?

Perseverance of the saints? Do you believe that Jesus will save those that he promised to save? That he will finish the work he started?

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

---

Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

---

No you don't. Do you believe he maintains the faith he has given you?

---

Of course. And every Christian I know believes that. His faith can not fail.

---

Every Christian does not believe in the perseverance of the saints.

---

Why are you trying to be devisive? Do you believe that if they don't believe that they are damned? And if not, why does it bother you?

---

Doc, usually if they believe they can lose their salvation, they try to work for it. So it is important.

Pierow said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

---

Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

---

No you don't. Do you believe he maintains the faith he has given you?

---

Of course. And every Christian I know believes that. His faith can not fail.

---

Every Christian does not believe in the perseverance of the saints.

---

Why are you trying to be devisive? Do you believe that if they don't believe that they are damned? And if not, why does it bother you?

---

Doc, usually if they believe they can lose their salvation, they try to work for it. So it is important.

---

So that is a damnable offense.?

dermdoc said:

---

Pierow said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

---

Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

---

No you don't. Do you believe he maintains the faith he has given you?

---

Of course. And every Christian I know believes that. His faith can not fail.

---

Every Christian does not believe in the perseverance of the saints.

---

Why are you trying to be devisive? Do you believe that if they don't believe that they are damned? And if not, why does it bother you?

---

Doc, usually if they believe they can lose their salvation, they try to work for it. So it is important.

---

So that is a damnable offense.?

---

Works righteousness? Of course. We are saved by Grace through Faith. Not Works. We can't get to heaven and say "Lord, we did it. Thanks for all your help".

Pierow said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Pierow said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

---

Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

---

No you don't. Do you believe he maintains the faith he has given you?

---

Of course. And every Christian I know believes that. His faith can not fail.

---

Every Christian does not believe in the perseverance of the saints.

---

Why are you trying to be devisive? Do you believe that if they don't believe that they are damned? And if not, why does it bother you?

---

Doc, usually if they believe they can lose their salvation, they try to work for it. So it is important.

---

So that is a damnable offense.?

---

Works righteousness? Of course. We are saved by Grace through Faith. Not Works. We can't get to heaven and say "Lord, we did it. Thanks for all your help".

---

Faith takes work. Faith without works is dead.

Our God is the God of the living and not the Dead, therefore yes, you need works to have faith.

Does a person who doesn't believe in Christ yet does amazing works get into heaven? No

Does that give a person license who does believe in Christ not do works? No

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

---

Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

---

No you don't. Do you believe he maintains the faith he has given you?

---

Of course. And every Christian I know believes that. His faith can not fail.

---

Every Christian does not believe in the perseverance of the saints.

---

Why are you trying to be devisive? Do you believe that if they don't believe that they are damned? And if not, why does it bother you?

---

No, this is not being divisive. And no, if someone doesn't believe the "P" in TULIP that will not damn them.

But we obviously have radically different views on what God's sovereignty is, because that is ultimately what a reformed person would believe when you boil it all down - God is sovereign over all.

Still waiting for one example of a hero of the faith in the Bible who chose God without God first initiating it.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The difference between yall and us is you think only some will choose death, that though He offers grace to all it's only sufficient for some, and we think everyone will choose death without the Holy Spirit intervening and that His grace is sufficient for all who receive it. He gives some of us mercy when we all choose death, by our choice might I add.

---

In addition there must be the idea that Christ will ultimately have died in vain for many since not all will choose Him, in that scenario. I don't believe that is an acceptable characterization of the blood spilled by the Messiah. Unless of course you believe in universal reconciliation

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

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The difference between yall and us is you think only some will choose death, that though He offers grace to all it's only sufficient for some, and we think everyone will choose death without the Holy Spirit intervening and that His grace is sufficient for all who receive it. He gives some of us mercy when we all choose death, by our choice might I add.

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In addition there must be the idea that Christ will ultimately have died in vain for many since not all will choose Him, in that scenario. I don't believe that is an acceptable characterization of the blood spilled by the Messiah. Unless of course you believe in universal reconciliation

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Ok, please explain how you arrived at this calculus.

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In addition there must be the idea that Christ will ultimately have died in vain for many since not all will choose Him, in that scenario.

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Christ obviously was perfect and innocent displayed by his life as the God man. But as Peter says, "Christ bore our sins in his body." He is the perfect sacrifice and suffered our punishment for our sins. God was not punishing Him for any of His own transgressions. This is the great exchange of our sin bore on Christ and His righteousness (which is alien to us naturally) given to us. This does nothing but bring us to our knees in complete and utter gratitude.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The difference between yall and us is you think only some will choose death, that though He offers grace to all it's only sufficient for some, and we think everyone will choose death without the Holy Spirit intervening and that His grace is sufficient for all who receive it. He gives some of us mercy when we all choose death, by our choice might I add.

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In addition there must be the idea that Christ will ultimately have died in vain for many since not all will choose Him, in that scenario. I don't believe that is an acceptable characterization of the blood spilled by the Messiah. Unless of course you believe in universal reconciliation

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Ok, please explain how you arrived at this calculus.

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In addition there must be the idea that Christ will ultimately have died in vain for many since not all will choose Him, in that scenario.

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I don't know why it wouldn't be so. What happens when you go out of your way to sacrifice something and help someone or perhaps offer a gift you saved up for years to buy. You give them the gift and they stare you in the face and throw it away. I'd say all of that toil and sacrifice was done in vain. How would it not be?

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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God created everything, owns everything, and maintains everything every moment of every day.

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Agree. And so does every other Christian I know,

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No you don't. Do you believe he maintains the faith he has given you?

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Of course. And every Christian I know believes that. His faith can not fail.

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Every Christian does not believe in the perseverance of the saints.

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Why are you trying to be devisive? Do you believe that if they don't believe that they are damned? And if not, why does it bother you?

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No, this is not being divisive. And no, if someone doesn't believe the "P" in TULIP that will not damn them.

But we obviously have radically different views on what God's sovereignty is, because that is ultimately what a reformed person would believe when you boil it all down - God is sovereign over all.

Still waiting for one example of a hero of the faith in the Bible who chose God without God first initiating it.

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You do understand that Christians who are not reformed believe God is sovereign over all too? You don't have to be a bully or tyrant to be sovereign. Christ is a wonderful example of that. And the Jews wanted a bully God. Sovereignty is not the question and never has been. And frankly it is kind of disingenuous to use. It is, and always has been, about God's character.
I think "sinners in the hands of an angry God" is fear based, bad theology. God is not angry with us. If so, why did He send His Son?
My view is that the character of God is revealed by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. God Incarnate on earth. A free gift to all.

And edited to add, sure God chose special people. To do special things for Him. Has nothing to do with salvation for ordinary Christians. Was Paul the only Christian saved in the NT? Of course not. But he was chosen by God to be the messenger to the Gentiles.

10andBOUNCE said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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The difference between yall and us is you think only some will choose death, that though He offers grace to all it's only sufficient for some, and we think everyone will choose death without the Holy Spirit intervening and that His grace is sufficient for all who receive it. He gives some of us mercy when we all choose death, by our choice might I add.

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In addition there must be the idea that Christ will ultimately have died in vain for many since not all will choose Him, in that scenario. I don't believe that is an acceptable characterization of the blood spilled by the Messiah. Unless of course you believe in universal reconciliation

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Ok, please explain how you arrived at this calculus.

Quote:

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In addition there must be the idea that Christ will ultimately have died in vain for many since not all will choose Him, in that scenario.

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I don't know why it wouldn't be so. What happens when you go out of your way to sacrifice something and help someone or perhaps offer a gift you saved up for years to buy. You give them the gift and they stare you in the face and throw it away. I'd say all of that toil and sacrifice was done in vain. How would it not be?

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Would they be throwing the gift away by their own free will? Or were they predestined to throw away the gift?