kurt vonnegut said:

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Severian the Torturer said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Lets say you work in Oil and Gas and I'm an envirowacko. Should I be able to go to your place of work and blow whistles in your face? Should I be able to park my car in front of your driveway so you can't get to work? Should I be able to follow you to lunch and scream profanities in your face?

If I do all those things and you respond by punching me in the face, am I partially responsible?

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Renee Good wasn't punched, she was shot in the face. If you do this and I call the police and they come by and shoot you in the face, are they justified?

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If they thought they were being run over? Yes

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Oh, maybe I haven't seen all the angles. I saw Good yelling at some ICE agents and try to drive off. I didn't see her attempt to murder anyone.

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How much leeway do we give federal law enforcement to defend their life if they think they're in danger?

I truly do not understand what universe these people live in where they think that provoking confrontation with ICE is a good decision.

Can they just leave ICE the hell alone? Like they've done every year before Trump became President for a second term?

Severian the Torturer said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Oh, maybe I haven't seen all the angles. I saw Good yelling at some ICE agents and try to drive off. I didn't see her attempt to murder anyone.

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How much leeway do we give federal law enforcement to defend their life if they think they're in danger?

I truly do not understand what universe these people live in where they think that provoking confrontation with ICE is a good decision.

Can they just leave ICE the hell alone? Like they've done every year before Trump became President for a second term?

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I want to make sure I understand you. A lot of American citizens are concerned and upset about the actions of some government authorities and are using their First Amendment rights to protest and speak out and you can't comprehend a universe where this is good and you feel they should just leave the government authorities the hell alone? So, we should all be good citizens and sit down and shut the **** up, right?

This isn't about violent protesters. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of videos on line of ICE agents abusing protesters who are not a threat. Pushing them, pepper spraying them, threatening them. There is a video of an ICE SUV driving into a protester and then the agents hop out and pepper spray him on the ground. There is a video of a 1 year old that got pepper sprayed. There is a video of ICE harassing and arresting a 75 year old woman from Africa who is a citizen, legal, and who has been in the country for 30+ years. They are all there in the public domain for anyone who actually gives a *****

I think the vast majority of law enforcement is good. And I think you cheapen everything those good officers stand for when you blindly back every one of the questionable actions.

You will turn my post into a post about how I hate law enforcement, because that fits your narrative. I don't hate law enforcement. I don't hate ICE. What they do is important. But, they should still be accountable. And right now, the right has no interest in holding them accountable because they've been consumed by their hatred and dehumanization of illegal immigrants and of the left.

But, you did ask a good question . . . how much leeway to we give law enforcement to use deadly force? Should an officer use deadly force if their life is in imminent danger? Sure. If another officer's life is in immediate danger? Yup. If someone else's life is in danger. You betcha. When an ornery woman drives by them and might maybe clip them? Nope. . .

And what about after they've used deadly force? Should an office stand around while a woman bleeds out and deny her medical assistance from a nearby doctor even though she had a pulse for 8 minutes after being shot? Like. . . . What the literal **** are we talking about here? She wasn't trying to murder ICE officers. She made a rash move with her car which was a bad decision. And she was shot and killed. And her killer stood by this woman and not only let her die, but actively denied her medical care. And now a child has no mother.

trespuertas, i'm sorry you are angry. I'm ****ing angry too.

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And right now, the right has no interest in holding them accountable because they've been consumed by their hatred and dehumanization of illegal immigrants and of the left.

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And right now, the left has no interest in giving ICE the benefit of the doubt because they've been consumed by their hatred and dehumanization of agents calling them gestapo and Nazis.

You have a million ways of speaking out. You have social media. You can go peacefully protest in areas where they ate not operating.

Why is this so hard for you to admit? THEY PURPOSEFULLY PUTTING THEMSELVES IN HARMS WAY BECAUSE THEY WANT **** LIKE THIS TO HAPPEN.

You lost the election. Try again next time. Don't interfere with law enforcement doing their jobs.

The state has a monopoly on force. Challenging that monopoly leads to increased use of force by the state and by citizens against perceived criminals, wrongdoing law enforcement, and each other, in a vicious cycle.

When you say "I don't trust the state to uphold the law / punish law enforcement" you are saying "the compact is broken and the state has no monopoly on violence". Which leads to widespread violence until a new order can be imposed.

Silent For Too Long said:

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And right now, the right has no interest in holding them accountable because they've been consumed by their hatred and dehumanization of illegal immigrants and of the left.

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And right now, the left has no interest in giving ICE the benefit of the doubt because they've been consumed by their hatred and dehumanization of agents calling them gestapo and Nazis.

You have a million ways of speaking out. You have social media. You can go peacefully protest in areas where they ate not operating.

Why is this so hard for you to admit? THEY PURPOSEFULLY PUTTING THEMSELVES IN HARMS WAY BECAUSE THEY WANT **** LIKE THIS TO HAPPEN.

You lost the election. Try again next time. Don't interfere with law enforcement doing their jobs.

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Yes, the left does have a problem with overgeneralizations against law enforcement.

A law abiding citizen should be permitted to peacefully protest anytime and anywhere up unto such action crosses the limit of their First Amendment right and into harassment or intervening in law enforcement. PERIOD.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that some people some people wish to protest what they see as inappropriate use of force by law enforcement. What is a concerned citizen supposed to do? Just 'stay the hell away' and send out comments on their Insta account? If these protestors were protesting something you care about, you would be 100% defending them.

I wish to stand up for the peaceful protestor getting maced for no good reason. You wish to stand up for the law enforcement officer that is safely and correctly doing their job. In that respect, we are both correct. The difference is that I acknowledge that some protestors cross a line and should receive proportionate punishment - like a fine or night in jail. And you can't even watch a video of a group of agents tackle a law abiding citizen, shoot him in the back in the streets like a dog and say 'Hmmm, maybe they shouldn't be doing that.".

I am happy to link some videos for your review, but I have to ask. . . When you see videos of ICE agents verbally abusing protestors, shoving them down, pepper spraying them, does any of that bother you? I understand that are upset that ICE agents being called mean names gets you fired up. But, an ICE agent pepper spraying someone who has done nothing wrong? Does it move the needle for you at all? Or are we cool with it because they are liberals?

schmendeler said:

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I've been sent video from the end of the ICE raid at the Zipps on 32nd and Shea.

It shows protesters -- on the sidewalk, impeding no one -- getting drive-by maced by an ICE agent from a truck as it rolls away down the road.

Hard to see how such tactics are justifiable. pic.twitter.com/dZYDCdO2mg

— Zach Buchanan (@ZHBuchanan) January 27, 2026

Acceptable?

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Absolutely, looks like they threw something at one of the cars and were converging on the trucks until sprayed.

Severian the Torturer said:

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schmendeler said:

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I've been sent video from the end of the ICE raid at the Zipps on 32nd and Shea.

It shows protesters -- on the sidewalk, impeding no one -- getting drive-by maced by an ICE agent from a truck as it rolls away down the road.

Hard to see how such tactics are justifiable. pic.twitter.com/dZYDCdO2mg

— Zach Buchanan (@ZHBuchanan) January 27, 2026

Acceptable?

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Absolutely, looks like they threw something at one of the cars and were converging on the trucks until sprayed.

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Fascinating

schmendeler said:

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Severian the Torturer said:

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schmendeler said:

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I've been sent video from the end of the ICE raid at the Zipps on 32nd and Shea.

It shows protesters -- on the sidewalk, impeding no one -- getting drive-by maced by an ICE agent from a truck as it rolls away down the road.

Hard to see how such tactics are justifiable. pic.twitter.com/dZYDCdO2mg

— Zach Buchanan (@ZHBuchanan) January 27, 2026

Acceptable?

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Absolutely, looks like they threw something at one of the cars and were converging on the trucks until sprayed.

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Fascinating

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Life is not nearly so hard as leftists make it out to be. Don't throw stuff at law enforcement. Some libs getting seasoned ranks fairly low on my "outrage meter".

If these are the gestapo like tactics that ICE is being accused of, it really casts the gestapo in a different light

Aggrad08 said:

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Just for consistency the capital police should have been using live rounds on Jan 6 for anyone carrying a bat or stick or even swing fists started swinging rather than riot shields correct?

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Dude if we want to go for a standard that all protestors who attack law enforcement get shot, I'm game for it, including Jan 6.

Sadly, it makes more sense to see the current US as an amalgamation of two different states. We've got the Red US and the Blue US. Minnesota is clearly the Blue US, and the federal government is in the hands of Red US. When the Red US sends armed officers into the Blue US, it's the same as Israel sending armed officers into Palestine or China sending armed officers into Uyghur. It's basically occupied territory. The populace doesn't want them there, and they are willing to protest and obstruct. The local and state government doesn't want them there and refuses to collaborate. The "occupying" officers are basically foreigners being brought in to enforce laws the locals don't want. So what we see is pretty much par for the course for situations like this. A lot of hostility and violence. Right now it's only going in one direction, but I expect that to change very soon if things continue. It's just the pattern.

Just in case anyone cares, when Blue USA controls the federal government the situation is the same regarding Red USA. The situation has been escalating with every transition of power since the turn of the century

schmendeler said:

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Except red states were some of the biggest beneficiaries of fed govt assistance under Biden through the spending bills that were passed. And there were no massive incursions of armed agents and national guard into red states.

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I distinctly remember large number of federal agents being brought to all number of Red USA everytime police killed a minority civilian. I also remember the federal government refusing to activate any guards or police force when widespread rioting was causing major damage in Red USA. The two sides of the USA have been in a cold war for decades. It's just getting out of control now

ramblin_ag02 said:

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schmendeler said:

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Except red states were some of the biggest beneficiaries of fed govt assistance under Biden through the spending bills that were passed. And there were no massive incursions of armed agents and national guard into red states.

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I distinctly remember large number of federal agents being brought to all number of Red USA everytime police killed a minority civilian. I also remember the federal government refusing to activate any guards or police force when widespread rioting was causing major damage in Red USA. The two sides of the USA have been in a cold war for decades. It's just getting out of control now

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I'm biased, but it's the left. It's always left. They don't know how to not push the envelope. Everything is a manufactured flashpoint to foment sweeping social change.

The President gets shot and the right changes their Facebook profile for a week

Charlie Kirk gets assassinated and donations to TPUSA go up

A fent head trying to use counterfeit money expires while being arrested and autonomous zones are erected and billions of dollars of property damage ensue.

Obama deports illegals and everyone cooperates

Trump tries to deport illegals and the Minnesota PD brings hot cocoa and donuts to the protestors setting up autonomous zones and calling swarms down on ICE

I'm curious what incidents you're referring to because portions of your statement just don't make sense. I would not expect the federal government to be activating the National Guard to aid in policing efforts. If that decision is made it comes from the state government, or at least that's the way it is supposed to work. As an example, after the killing of George Floyd about 75,000 members of the National Guard were activated in 32 states per the orders of the governors of those states (LINK). It was not a situation in which the federal government was putting federal officers into states that either didn't ask for them or actively didn't want them.

What is your example of a riot "causing major damage in Red USA" you mention?

On Kenosha, the governor had already approved calling up the Guard for support before the shooting happened (LINK). Again, that decision was made by the governor and not the federal government.

schmendeler said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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schmendeler said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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schmendeler said:

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Except red states were some of the biggest beneficiaries of fed govt assistance under Biden through the spending bills that were passed. And there were no massive incursions of armed agents and national guard into red states.

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I distinctly remember large number of federal agents being brought to all number of Red USA everytime police killed a minority civilian. I also remember the federal government refusing to activate any guards or police force when widespread rioting was causing major damage in Red USA. The two sides of the USA have been in a cold war for decades. It's just getting out of control now

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Got some specific examples for "widespread rioting causing major damage in red USA" during Biden's administration?

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See Kenosha, Wisconsin and the whole Kyle Rittenhouse situation. It was big news for a while. There were riots in Augusta following a police shooting there.

But this is a tangent. I'm not here to attack or defend Red or Blue USA. Merely stating that we basically have two countries trying to fit into one space, and each uses the national government to enforce their unwanted will on the other

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The Kenosha incident occurred in August 2020 while Trump was president. I've googled Augusta police shooting riots and nothing comes back.

I'm glad you're not trying to attack or defend red or blue. But when you say things like both sides are doing the same thing and escalating, there should be examples.

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I actually agree with you guys, when we have a Dem president, there is no rioting because the left machine stops agitating.

You'll notice now, the left is pro 2nd amendment and calling for limited government and emphasizing states rights. They do not have any real principles other than "cause chaos, tear down existing structures to create a void that we can fill"

They are fantastic at adapting their current gameplay to whatever gets the most yardage.

Don't buy that one at all.

List of Incidents of Civil Unrest in the United States

Some memorable ones in here during Democratic presidencies. Including Occupy protests, Ferguson, Oakland 2014, Baltimore 2015, Cop City protests, etc.

Severian the Torturer said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Just for consistency the capital police should have been using live rounds on Jan 6 for anyone carrying a bat or stick or even swing fists started swinging rather than riot shields correct?

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Dude if we want to go for a standard that all protestors who attack law enforcement get shot, I'm game for it, including Jan 6.

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If you want to be consistent with bootlicking I'm actually more ok with that. It's much of the same people who would have lost their minds at excessive force for a "peaceful" protest on January 6 saying "good shoot" here.


many countries seem to do policing way better than we do all around.

Aggrad08 said:

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Severian the Torturer said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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Just for consistency the capital police should have been using live rounds on Jan 6 for anyone carrying a bat or stick or even swing fists started swinging rather than riot shields correct?

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Dude if we want to go for a standard that all protestors who attack law enforcement get shot, I'm game for it, including Jan 6.

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If you want to be consistent with bootlicking I'm actually more ok with that. It's much of the same people who would have lost their minds at excessive force for a "peaceful" protest on January 6 saying "good shoot" here.


many countries seem to do policing way better than we do all around.

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The accusation of bootlicking is such a weird thing from the left. I don't like disorder, I don't like chaos, assaulting law enforcement for doing their job is stupid if they're exercising a legitimate function of their job.

I live in Abu Dhabi, there are almost no police anywhere. There is also almost no crime anywhere. They have zero illegal immigration issues and life is paradise.

Sinagpore is also paradise, they have very little crime there as well.

Figure out what the two things have in common as opposed to disorder and chaos.

Rocag said:

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Don't buy that one at all.

List of Incidents of Civil Unrest in the United States

Some memorable ones in here during Democratic presidencies. Including Occupy protests, Ferguson, Oakland 2014, Baltimore 2015, Cop City protests, etc.

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Those are all very limited, but yes manufactured outrage to enact sweeping social changes.

When Daniel Shaver gets killed we shrug and say "wow what an idiot cop", we don't burn down the city around us.

That's one of the things that separates the Jan 6 idiocy from what the left does.

The Jan 6 tards had a beef against the government, and they attacked the center of government power. The left will destroy their city when they have a beef against anyone.

"Oh look a cop shot Mike Brown, better steal Nikes and burn down the adjacent Jason's Deli"

Did Sappie ag ever answer why Biden opened the borders to criminals and illegals? All of this chaos now is because of Biden and the left it had not have let the door wide open none of this would be happening.


No one on the left seems to acknowledge that.

Aggrad08 said:

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The implication that you must excuse an excessive use of force that most the first world finds completely unnecessary in order to "promote order" is total nonsense. It is a disorder from the start to have a police force that operates equips and has a militaristic attitude to begin with. There was a time when US police operated and were equipped much the same.

The no knock raid attitude swat equipped police is a choice.

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Light punishments do nothing but incentivize more criminal/chaotic behavior.

Take the well-known incident in Singapore decades ago where a young man was caned for tagging.

Some people say "that's an absurd punishment for a small act of property damage", and I would say "that's why you have graffiti everywhere". It's extremely easy to not get caned for vandalism, don't spray paint stuff that's not yours.

A harsh punishment isn't sadistic, it's a strong statement that "you really don't want to do this". The instant execution of drug dealers wouldn't arise from some antisocial desire to see people killed, but rather to disincentivize drug dealing by putting your finger on the scale in the cost/benefit analysis.

The militarization of police is a whole 'nother bag of worms; no we don't need armored personnel carriers or SWAT teams armed with fully auto weapons all the time, but you might need them every now and again. That doesn't mean that you use a hammer every time you need as scalpel, but sometimes you do need a hammer. This is more of an issue with the military industrial complex and bloated municipal budgets giving rise to the "punisher" mentality.