The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Maybe the question isn't "is faith a work?" but instead "is faith a meritorious work?"

Faith is something we "do" but it does not merit a reward. - John Calvin

Jesus is the only one who has done any salvific work.

Titus 3: 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Yes, we must believe, but faith isn't a meritorious work, it's a condition. We must have faith to be saved. Faith is the conduit through which we receive God's blessings; salvation being chief among them. If you don't have this conduit, you don't receive the blessings.

Ephesians 2:9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

---

If faith is something we "do" why can't we stop doing it in a once saved, always saved framework?

---

Faith is a sufficient condition for justification, that is present by the gifting of God through regeneration.

---

But why can't we lose faith?

---

Because we are a new creation. Because the work is done. Because scripture says (I believe) that we cannot. Why did God decide for this to be the way it is? Because it must be the way in which it brings Him the most glory.

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

But you believe that God will eventually win over our free will correct? So in the end, we don't really have a choice in our salvation?

To compare it to Calvinism, it's a double predestination, but one in which both groups (believers and non-believers) end up in heaven. God is gonna make them have faith, dang it!

*Winky face to ease the slight of comparing your faith to a theology you don't like*

---

As you know, I have thought through this for years.

First of all, I believe double predestination is an abomination and besmirches God's character under the new covenant and revelation of Jesus Christ.

I believe in free will. Scripture is clear that God desires to save all men (which is another revelation of His character) and that God is love (yet another revelation of His character).

So basically it comes down to does God allow man free will to completely reject him? That would be the ultimate love part of His character and is what CS Lewis believed. That the only people in hell are those who choose to be.

And I am okay with that.

But then on the other side you have God's sovereignty and desire to save all men. And the question is does God over ride free will?

I actually go back and forth on this thought and am okay with either.

---

What do you think of John 6:44 in light of this discussion?

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44, RSV-CE)

---

John 12:32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people unto myself.

This verse again shows universal atonement. The question is whether God allows man with free will to refuse God's grace. Or not.

---

Indeed. For me, there is a distinction between drawing and "dragging against someone's free will." Like you, I don't think God violates our free will because God wants us to love him authentically. As a Catholic I believe the initial grace of justification is 100% a movement by God towardds us and a completely free gift that we have nothing to do with; but thereafter we are in a relationship with God and must do our part to grow in that relationship by freely cooperating with God's grace and letting it transform us as he pours his grace into our hearts. But I also believe with Augustine that when when God rewards our merits, He is crowning His own gifts to us. This aligns with Philippians 2:12-13, which emphasizes that it is God who works in us to will and to act according to His purpose. The Council of Trent also affirmed that our justification and good works are entirely by God's grace, not by our own merit (Romans 11:6). Thus, our cooperation with grace is itself a gift from God.

Zobel said:

---

one is in the bible, the other isnt

---

I agree. We just happen to disagree on which one.

Zobel said:

---

yes, we have qualities worthy of reward or punishment based on what we do

---

To say you deserve something, but not earn it is confusing. In fact, the second definition of "earn" in the OED is "to deserve well or ill."

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

But you believe that God will eventually win over our free will correct? So in the end, we don't really have a choice in our salvation?

To compare it to Calvinism, it's a double predestination, but one in which both groups (believers and non-believers) end up in heaven. God is gonna make them have faith, dang it!

*Winky face to ease the slight of comparing your faith to a theology you don't like*

---

As you know, I have thought through this for years.

First of all, I believe double predestination is an abomination and besmirches God's character under the new covenant and revelation of Jesus Christ.

I believe in free will. Scripture is clear that God desires to save all men (which is another revelation of His character) and that God is love (yet another revelation of His character).

So basically it comes down to does God allow man free will to completely reject him? That would be the ultimate love part of His character and is what CS Lewis believed. That the only people in hell are those who choose to be.

And I am okay with that.

But then on the other side you have God's sovereignty and desire to save all men. And the question is does God over ride free will?

I actually go back and forth on this thought and am okay with either.

---

What do you think of John 6:44 in light of this discussion?

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44, RSV-CE)

---

John 12:32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people unto myself.

This verse again shows universal atonement. The question is whether God allows man with free will to refuse God's grace. Or not.

---

Indeed. For me, there is a distinction between drawing and "dragging against someone's free will." Like you, I don't think God violates our free will because God wants us to love him authentically. As a Catholic I believe the initial grace of justification is 100% a movement by God towardds us and a completely free gift that we have nothing to do with; but thereafter we are in a relationship with God and must do our part to grow in that relationship by freely cooperating with God's grace and letting it transform us as he pours his grace into our hearts. But I also believe with Augustine that when when God rewards our merits, He is crowning His own gifts to us. This aligns with Philippians 2:12-13, which emphasizes that it is God who works in us to will and to act according to His purpose. The Council of Trent also affirmed that our justification and good works are entirely by God's grace, not by our own merit (Romans 11:6). Thus, our cooperation with grace is itself a gift from God.

---

This is why Protestants view Catholics as preaching a false gospel, because they view justification as a process, one in which requires works of man. I believe you are trying to say that though it requires works of man, it is only because of God that man can do those works.

well, i mean this is an objective fact. one is in the scriptures and the other isnt. synergism is, monergism is not.

im sorry you're confused.

Zobel said:

---

well, i mean this is an objective fact. one is in the scriptures and the other isnt. synergism is, monergism is not.

---

Guess we can agree to disagree.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Maybe the question isn't "is faith a work?" but instead "is faith a meritorious work?"

Faith is something we "do" but it does not merit a reward. - John Calvin

Jesus is the only one who has done any salvific work.

Titus 3: 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Yes, we must believe, but faith isn't a meritorious work, it's a condition. We must have faith to be saved. Faith is the conduit through which we receive God's blessings; salvation being chief among them. If you don't have this conduit, you don't receive the blessings.

Ephesians 2:9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

---

If faith is something we "do" why can't we stop doing it in a once saved, always saved framework?

---

Faith is a sufficient condition for justification, that is present by the gifting of God through regeneration.

---

But why can't we lose faith?

---

Because we are a new creation. Because the work is done. Because scripture says (I believe) that we cannot. Why did God decide for this to be the way it is? Because it must be the way in which it brings Him the most glory.

---

And you ascribe to Calvinism or reformed doctrine, correct?

i mean, sure. we can agree to disagree about a great many things, but the word synergism is in the bible, the word monergism is not. and some of the places that the word synergism and its variants show up are directly applicable to this question. for example,

"Was not Abraham our father made righteous by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was working with (literally: synergei) his works, and by his works, his faith was perfected."

The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Maybe the question isn't "is faith a work?" but instead "is faith a meritorious work?"

Faith is something we "do" but it does not merit a reward. - John Calvin

Jesus is the only one who has done any salvific work.

Titus 3: 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Yes, we must believe, but faith isn't a meritorious work, it's a condition. We must have faith to be saved. Faith is the conduit through which we receive God's blessings; salvation being chief among them. If you don't have this conduit, you don't receive the blessings.

Ephesians 2:9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

---

If faith is something we "do" why can't we stop doing it in a once saved, always saved framework?

---

Faith is a sufficient condition for justification, that is present by the gifting of God through regeneration.

---

But why can't we lose faith?

---

Because we are a new creation. Because the work is done. Because scripture says (I believe) that we cannot. Why did God decide for this to be the way it is? Because it must be the way in which it brings Him the most glory.

---

And you ascribe to Calvinism or reformed doctrine, correct?

---

Is it that obvious?

Zobel said:

---

im sorry you're confused.

---

I didn't say I was confused. But I can see how many Catholics are. And Protestants about what Catholics believe.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Maybe the question isn't "is faith a work?" but instead "is faith a meritorious work?"

Faith is something we "do" but it does not merit a reward. - John Calvin

Jesus is the only one who has done any salvific work.

Titus 3: 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Yes, we must believe, but faith isn't a meritorious work, it's a condition. We must have faith to be saved. Faith is the conduit through which we receive God's blessings; salvation being chief among them. If you don't have this conduit, you don't receive the blessings.

Ephesians 2:9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

---

If faith is something we "do" why can't we stop doing it in a once saved, always saved framework?

---

Faith is a sufficient condition for justification, that is present by the gifting of God through regeneration.

---

But why can't we lose faith?

---

Because we are a new creation. Because the work is done. Because scripture says (I believe) that we cannot. Why did God decide for this to be the way it is? Because it must be the way in which it brings Him the most glory.

---

And you ascribe to Calvinism or reformed doctrine, correct?

---

Is it that obvious?

---

Than I'll bow out of a back and forth in this particular thread. I think you've taken faith alone as literally as possible and believe that Luther likely would have gotten there too with a few more years on this earth.

I will reserve any rebuttals against this formula of faith alone at another time.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Zobel said:

---

you can fall off the horse both ways. just like the question about free will.

people who engage end up in all sorts of opposite errors, leading to absurd contradictions or requiring illogical presuppositions (faith is something we do and is required for salvation but doesn't save us - ????) or pedantic categories (work vs meritorious work).

waste. of. time.

---

It comes down to defining our words. What do we mean when we talk about "works" in relation to salvation.

In reality, faith is a gift, not a work, given to us by God.

---

You win. I am drinking coffee watching Christmas Story with my grand kids.

Merry Christmas!

---

That is a win!

Can I send you this mug to enjoy your coffee in?

---

Believe it or not, I already have that mug. My daughter gave it to me one Christmas.

Notice it does not say totally depraved.

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

Zobel said:

---

yes, we have qualities worthy of reward or punishment based on what we do

---

To say you deserve something, but not earn it is confusing. In fact, the second definition of "earn" in the OED is "to deserve well or ill."

---

Do we earn hell?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

But you believe that God will eventually win over our free will correct? So in the end, we don't really have a choice in our salvation?

To compare it to Calvinism, it's a double predestination, but one in which both groups (believers and non-believers) end up in heaven. God is gonna make them have faith, dang it!

*Winky face to ease the slight of comparing your faith to a theology you don't like*

---

As you know, I have thought through this for years.

First of all, I believe double predestination is an abomination and besmirches God's character under the new covenant and revelation of Jesus Christ.

I believe in free will. Scripture is clear that God desires to save all men (which is another revelation of His character) and that God is love (yet another revelation of His character).

So basically it comes down to does God allow man free will to completely reject him? That would be the ultimate love part of His character and is what CS Lewis believed. That the only people in hell are those who choose to be.

And I am okay with that.

But then on the other side you have God's sovereignty and desire to save all men. And the question is does God over ride free will?

I actually go back and forth on this thought and am okay with either.

---

What do you think of John 6:44 in light of this discussion?

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44, RSV-CE)

---

John 12:32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people unto myself.

This verse again shows universal atonement. The question is whether God allows man with free will to refuse God's grace. Or not.

---

Indeed. For me, there is a distinction between drawing and "dragging against someone's free will." Like you, I don't think God violates our free will because God wants us to love him authentically. As a Catholic I believe the initial grace of justification is 100% a movement by God towardds us and a completely free gift that we have nothing to do with; but thereafter we are in a relationship with God and must do our part to grow in that relationship by freely cooperating with God's grace and letting it transform us as he pours his grace into our hearts. But I also believe with Augustine that when when God rewards our merits, He is crowning His own gifts to us. This aligns with Philippians 2:12-13, which emphasizes that it is God who works in us to will and to act according to His purpose. The Council of Trent also affirmed that our justification and good works are entirely by God's grace, not by our own merit (Romans 11:6). Thus, our cooperation with grace is itself a gift from God.

---

This is why Protestants view Catholics as preaching a false gospel, because they view justification as a process, one in which requires works of man. I believe you are trying to say that though it requires works of man, it is only because of God that man can do those works.

---

With all due respect, that is not how I understand what he posted. He said God initiated grace towards us and we respond (justification) then work synergistically with Holy Spirit to produce fruit (sanctification/theosis).

How does that differ with your beliefs?

Zobel said:

---

i mean, sure. we can agree to disagree about a great many things, but the word synergism is in the bible, the word monergism is not. and the places that the word synergism and its variants are all directly applicable to this question. for example,

"Was not Abraham our father made righteous by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was working with (literally: synergei) his works, and by his works, his faith was perfected."

---

We are declared righteous at justification but we are not righteous. Once justified the process of sanctification begins by which we grow in righteousness.

Paul had Genesis 15 in view, justifying Abraham by faith alone, before he did any works. James has Genesis 22 in view, in which Abraham obeys God, proving the real faith that he had.

Faith alone justifies but it will also produce works of obedience in which we grow in righteousness.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Zobel said:

---

i mean, sure. we can agree to disagree about a great many things, but the word synergism is in the bible, the word monergism is not. and the places that the word synergism and its variants are all directly applicable to this question. for example,

"Was not Abraham our father made righteous by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was working with (literally: synergei) his works, and by his works, his faith was perfected."

---

We are declared righteous at justification but we are not righteous. Once justified the process of sanctification begins by which we grow in righteousness.

Paul had Genesis 15 in view, justifying Abraham by faith alone, before he did any works. James has Genesis 22 in view, in which Abraham obeys God, proving the real faith that he had.

Faith alone justifies but it will also produce works of obedience in which we grow in righteousness.

---

Sounds like synergism to me. And I am okay with that.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Zobel said:

---

i mean, sure. we can agree to disagree about a great many things, but the word synergism is in the bible, the word monergism is not. and the places that the word synergism and its variants are all directly applicable to this question. for example,

"Was not Abraham our father made righteous by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was working with (literally: synergei) his works, and by his works, his faith was perfected."

---

We are declared righteous at justification but we are not righteous. Once justified the process of sanctification begins by which we grow in righteousness.

Paul had Genesis 15 in view, justifying Abraham by faith alone, before he did any works. James has Genesis 22 in view, in which Abraham obeys God, proving the real faith that he had.

Faith alone justifies but it will also produce works of obedience in which we grow in righteousness.

---

Sounds like synergism to me. And I am okay with that.

---

Not when the change God wrought on you overcame your free will and there's really nothing you could do to walk away from it.

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Zobel said:

---

i mean, sure. we can agree to disagree about a great many things, but the word synergism is in the bible, the word monergism is not. and the places that the word synergism and its variants are all directly applicable to this question. for example,

"Was not Abraham our father made righteous by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was working with (literally: synergei) his works, and by his works, his faith was perfected."

---

We are declared righteous at justification but we are not righteous. Once justified the process of sanctification begins by which we grow in righteousness.

Paul had Genesis 15 in view, justifying Abraham by faith alone, before he did any works. James has Genesis 22 in view, in which Abraham obeys God, proving the real faith that he had.

Faith alone justifies but it will also produce works of obedience in which we grow in righteousness.

---

Sounds like synergism to me. And I am okay with that.

---

Not when the change God wrought on you overcame your free will and there's really nothing you could do to walk away from it.

---

How can anybody but God and that person know that? And how can humans judge another person for what kind of works or how many works a person does?

I have observed an awful lot of judging of other Christians in my 69 years.

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Zobel said:

---

i mean, sure. we can agree to disagree about a great many things, but the word synergism is in the bible, the word monergism is not. and the places that the word synergism and its variants are all directly applicable to this question. for example,

"Was not Abraham our father made righteous by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was working with (literally: synergei) his works, and by his works, his faith was perfected."

---

We are declared righteous at justification but we are not righteous. Once justified the process of sanctification begins by which we grow in righteousness.

Paul had Genesis 15 in view, justifying Abraham by faith alone, before he did any works. James has Genesis 22 in view, in which Abraham obeys God, proving the real faith that he had.

Faith alone justifies but it will also produce works of obedience in which we grow in righteousness.

---

Sounds like synergism to me. And I am okay with that.

---

Not when the change God wrought on you overcame your free will and there's really nothing you could do to walk away from it.

---

How can anybody but God and that person know that?

---

A question that Howdy answered on the other thread: some people have false assurance. They're are simply wrong in their belief that they are saved.

But I really don't want to make this about all different tenants of Calvinism/reformed doctrine. I want to stick to the deep dive into what I believe is the ultimate end of believing in faith alone.

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Zobel said:

---

i mean, sure. we can agree to disagree about a great many things, but the word synergism is in the bible, the word monergism is not. and the places that the word synergism and its variants are all directly applicable to this question. for example,

"Was not Abraham our father made righteous by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith was working with (literally: synergei) his works, and by his works, his faith was perfected."

---

We are declared righteous at justification but we are not righteous. Once justified the process of sanctification begins by which we grow in righteousness.

Paul had Genesis 15 in view, justifying Abraham by faith alone, before he did any works. James has Genesis 22 in view, in which Abraham obeys God, proving the real faith that he had.

Faith alone justifies but it will also produce works of obedience in which we grow in righteousness.

---

Sounds like synergism to me. And I am okay with that.

---

Not when the change God wrought on you overcame your free will and there's really nothing you could do to walk away from it.

---

How can anybody but God and that person know that?

---

A question that Howdy answered on the other thread: some people have false assurance. They're are simply wrong in their belief that they are saved.

But I really don't want to make this about all different tenants of Calvinism/reformed doctrine. I want to stick to the deep dive into what I believe is the ultimate end of believing in faith alone.

---

Gotcha. I was just going to ask how one knows they have "true" vs "false" assurance.
In deference to you, I will bite my tongue.

Quote:

---

We are declared righteous at justification but we are not righteous.

---

the problem is "declared righteous" is not in the scriptures. there's no "declared". it's not there, it's a theological gloss. there's just righteousness or justification.

the whole thing is laboring under a framework that is not in the scriptures.

justified and righteous are the same word - there's only one. Its the same word.

righteousness is a condition of being, it's being set in order. we retain this sense of the word in our word processing - justification. if you're in good relationship with God, man, the creation, you are justified.

Quote:

---

Faith alone justifies but it will also produce works of obedience in which we grow in righteousness.

---

you see how this is a contradiction? you can write this sentence all of these ways:

Faith alone makes us righteous but it will also produce works of obedience in which we grow in righteousness.
Faith alone makes us righteous but it will also produce works of obedience in which we grow in justification.
Faith alone justifies but it will also produce works of obedience in which we grow in justification.

it's the same word.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

The Banned said:

---

But you believe that God will eventually win over our free will correct? So in the end, we don't really have a choice in our salvation?

To compare it to Calvinism, it's a double predestination, but one in which both groups (believers and non-believers) end up in heaven. God is gonna make them have faith, dang it!

*Winky face to ease the slight of comparing your faith to a theology you don't like*

---

As you know, I have thought through this for years.

First of all, I believe double predestination is an abomination and besmirches God's character under the new covenant and revelation of Jesus Christ.

I believe in free will. Scripture is clear that God desires to save all men (which is another revelation of His character) and that God is love (yet another revelation of His character).

So basically it comes down to does God allow man free will to completely reject him? That would be the ultimate love part of His character and is what CS Lewis believed. That the only people in hell are those who choose to be.

And I am okay with that.

But then on the other side you have God's sovereignty and desire to save all men. And the question is does God over ride free will?

I actually go back and forth on this thought and am okay with either.

---

What do you think of John 6:44 in light of this discussion?

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44, RSV-CE)

---

John 12:32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people unto myself.

This verse again shows universal atonement. The question is whether God allows man with free will to refuse God's grace. Or not.

---

Indeed. For me, there is a distinction between drawing and "dragging against someone's free will." Like you, I don't think God violates our free will because God wants us to love him authentically. As a Catholic I believe the initial grace of justification is 100% a movement by God towardds us and a completely free gift that we have nothing to do with; but thereafter we are in a relationship with God and must do our part to grow in that relationship by freely cooperating with God's grace and letting it transform us as he pours his grace into our hearts. But I also believe with Augustine that when when God rewards our merits, He is crowning His own gifts to us. This aligns with Philippians 2:12-13, which emphasizes that it is God who works in us to will and to act according to His purpose. The Council of Trent also affirmed that our justification and good works are entirely by God's grace, not by our own merit (Romans 11:6). Thus, our cooperation with grace is itself a gift from God.

---

This is why Protestants view Catholics as preaching a false gospel, because they view justification as a process, one in which requires works of man. I believe you are trying to say that though it requires works of man, it is only because of God that man can do those works.

---

With all due respect, that is not how I understand what he posted. He said God initiated grace towards us and we respond (justification) then work synergistically with Holy Spirit to produce fruit (sanctification/theosis).

How does that differ with your beliefs?

What you wrote would not, but that's not how I interpreted their comment, namely due to the words "INITIAL grace of justification" which to me implies justification is a process and not a one-time, momentary event.

---

one aspect to the whole "works" thing I think is overlooked is a missing of the Body of Christ, animated by His Spirit, and what that actually means. when we are part of the body of Christ, we are animated by His Spirit the same way that our physical body is animated, made alive, by our spirit.

when our body does something, who does it? us. we are an ensouled body, an animated body, a body made alive by our life. there's no distinction between our body and our self - likewise we who are many are one Body, made alive by one Spirit. when we do the work of the Spirit it is our work, yes, but it is truly the Spirit that works in us, and the works we do are truly Good because they are His works! who could say that the good works of God are not salvific?

faithfulness and works are like body and soul. one makes the other alive, the other actualizes and makes real the former. and our works made alive by the Spirit are the works of God. His Spirit wills, He works, we work with Him, as His Body, animated by Him, and the works are His.

The Greek word translated justification as in Romans 3:28 means:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

yes, I too have strong's. the point remains.

https://images.app.goo.gl/CCzrompxLrxfEmLj9

https://images.app.goo.gl/6W5zk4mFd18iTpgKA

Martin Q. Blank said:

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The Banned said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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The Banned said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It's clear that faith is a condition of obtaining eternal life, but it is not a work.

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But is it a choice?

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Of course, we don't begrudgingly believe in God against our will. Not sure what that has to do with your OP anyway.

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The OP is if we have to choose to have faith, why isn't this a work? Choosing is an action. What is a work if not an action?

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Faith is resting, believing, trusting. It requires no work on my part.

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I believe faith is a great deal more than 'believing'. Intellectual assent doesn't quite cut it. The demons believe in Christ's divinity as the Son of God. If faith is resting then what of all the things we are called to do? To me faith encompasses all of us in our mind, heart, soul and thus our action. Practicing our faith absolutely requires work on my part, every day. Otherwise, what prevents one from believing in Christ but then just continuing to live in sin and not doing what is commanded? And if we work every day with the help of the Holy Spirit to fight temptation and follow his commandments, is that because we are on auto pilot and have no more free will?

Salvation is a gift that we can never merit. We accept it through our faith, which is participatory. Faith without works is dead. James 2:14 sets it up: "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works?

I don't mean to complicate the original question, but...
If it is faith alone, i.e. "I accept Christ as my Lord and Savior", where exactly does baptism fit in to that equation for salvation?

I would explain it this way, if two people agree to be friends, then they are friends. However, if following that agreement, one of the individuals in acts in a poor manner toward the other then he was not likely honest when he agreed to the friendship. If following the agreement, on works in a manner to strengthen that friendship, then he was likely true to the agreement made.

A relationship with Christ is different in that He always wants to be my friend. Grace is predicated on the opportunity that I get a chance to meet him (i.e. I don't live in an isolated Amazon tribe). If I agree to be His friend (i.e. Accept Him as my Lord and Savior), that is enough up until a moment arises that I must make the choice whether to act in a way that pleases or displeases Him. Doing "works" that are against His nature is evidence that our relationship was made in bad faith by me. Doing "works" that work toward building His kingdom on Earth demonstrate obedience and genuineness to our relationship. Doing "works" that bring only glory to me are meaningless to my relationship with Him. And you best get baptized the first opportunity you get.

"21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [s]miracles?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness." (Matt 7:21-23)

Not 100% familiar with your background. Are you pointing to the possibility of losing your faith when you say "make an agreement in bad faith" or that you were never actually saved?

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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dermdoc said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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But you believe that God will eventually win over our free will correct? So in the end, we don't really have a choice in our salvation?

To compare it to Calvinism, it's a double predestination, but one in which both groups (believers and non-believers) end up in heaven. God is gonna make them have faith, dang it!

*Winky face to ease the slight of comparing your faith to a theology you don't like*

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As you know, I have thought through this for years.

First of all, I believe double predestination is an abomination and besmirches God's character under the new covenant and revelation of Jesus Christ.

I believe in free will. Scripture is clear that God desires to save all men (which is another revelation of His character) and that God is love (yet another revelation of His character).

So basically it comes down to does God allow man free will to completely reject him? That would be the ultimate love part of His character and is what CS Lewis believed. That the only people in hell are those who choose to be.

And I am okay with that.

But then on the other side you have God's sovereignty and desire to save all men. And the question is does God over ride free will?

I actually go back and forth on this thought and am okay with either.

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What do you think of John 6:44 in light of this discussion?

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44, RSV-CE)

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John 12:32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people unto myself.

This verse again shows universal atonement. The question is whether God allows man with free will to refuse God's grace. Or not.

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Indeed. For me, there is a distinction between drawing and "dragging against someone's free will." Like you, I don't think God violates our free will because God wants us to love him authentically. As a Catholic I believe the initial grace of justification is 100% a movement by God towardds us and a completely free gift that we have nothing to do with; but thereafter we are in a relationship with God and must do our part to grow in that relationship by freely cooperating with God's grace and letting it transform us as he pours his grace into our hearts. But I also believe with Augustine that when when God rewards our merits, He is crowning His own gifts to us. This aligns with Philippians 2:12-13, which emphasizes that it is God who works in us to will and to act according to His purpose. The Council of Trent also affirmed that our justification and good works are entirely by God's grace, not by our own merit (Romans 11:6). Thus, our cooperation with grace is itself a gift from God.

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This is why Protestants view Catholics as preaching a false gospel, because they view justification as a process, one in which requires works of man. I believe you are trying to say that though it requires works of man, it is only because of God that man can do those works.

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With all due respect, that is not how I understand what he posted. He said God initiated grace towards us and we respond (justification) then work synergistically with Holy Spirit to produce fruit (sanctification/theosis).

How does that differ with your beliefs?

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Thank you for saying this.

The Banned said:

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Not 100% familiar with your background. Are you pointing to the possibility of losing your faith when you say "make an agreement in bad faith" or that you were never actually saved?

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My background? I'm a sinner trying to be the best Chrisian I can be via the teachings of Christ.

The arguement I am making is that the question of faith and works is a poorly forumlated question. I believe the two things to be inseprable.

"15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits." -Matt 7:15-20

First and foremost, Christ is judge. I don't pretend to know what is in someone's heart. However, I do understand that a fig tree makes figs and not thistles. As such, if you make a statement of faith claiming to be a fig tree and thisles pop out of your butt, you were never fig tree. Your statement wasn't genuine. If you make a statement of being a follow of Christ and you actually internalize what that means, you will produce good fruit, good works. The works don't "earn" your salvation, the "works" are evidence you are what you say you are just as a fig on a branch would identify that branch as one of a fig tree.

FIDO95 said:

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The Banned said:

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Not 100% familiar with your background. Are you pointing to the possibility of losing your faith when you say "make an agreement in bad faith" or that you were never actually saved?

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My background? I'm a sinner trying to be the best Chrisian I can be via the teachings of Christ.

The arguement I am making is that the question of faith and works is a poorly forumlated question. I believe the two things to be inseprable.

"15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits." -Matt 7:15-20

First and foremost, Christ is judge. I don't pretend to know what is in someone's heart. However, I do understand that a fig tree makes figs and not thistles. As such, if you make a statement of faith claiming to be a fig tree and thisles pop out of your butt, you were never fig tree. Your statement wasn't genuine. If you make a statement of being a follow of Christ and you actually internalize what that means, you will produce good fruit, good works. The works don't "earn" your salvation, the "works" are evidence you are what you say you are just as a fig on a branch would identify that branch as one of a fig tree.

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Doing my best to understand you so I don't misrepresent your view. Are you suggesting that it is the person who is responsible for responding to God's call on their heart and that they are in full control of accepting or rejecting that call?

First and foremost, I don't get offended very easily. Feel free to critize anything I write. I find I'm not always entirely clear in what I type and the exercise forces me to write better. Secondly, I enjoy bouncing ideas back and forth with individuals hoping to deepen their understanding as it forces me to deepen my own. The converstions based on an idea of sharing views (as opposed to those seeking only to convert another individual to their own rigid view) tend to help both parties involved.

Of course, the problem with doing that on the internet is that sometimes what we read or write isn't exactly what an author was trying to say and/or what I might be trying to relay. As such, I was under the understanding that the OP was a quesion of if "faith alone" was adequate for salvation and that was the point I was trying to address.

Veering from that, the question in regards to God's call (do you equate this to Grace?) is an entirely different matter. Answering that would first require us to have the same definition of "God's call". I would suggest the simple definitions as someone who recieves God's grace/call is one who is exposed to the Good News. We can't control that anymore then we can decide where in the world we are born, to what family, and in what culture. As such, the fact that I was born here and to a Christian family are examples of God's gift of grace in my life. While the gift of God's grace is something I can not control, I can control whether I accept that gift or not.