Faith alone

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The Banned
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1:06p, 12/12/24
Stated this is the other thread, but I know not everyone has time to go through 10 pages of that back and forth.

Based on a number of conversations with some of the Calvinist/reformed folks on here, as well as personal interactions,, it's got me thinking that if "faith alone" is true, they have probably reached the most literal conclusion of what that means.

So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?
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10andBOUNCE
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1:11p, 12/12/24
AG
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dermdoc
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In reply to The Banned • 1:12p, 12/12/24
AG
The Banned said:
Stated this is the other thread, but I know not everyone has time to go through 10 pages of that back and forth.

Based on a number of conversations with some of the Calvinist/reformed folks on here, as well as personal interactions,, it's got me thinking that if "faith alone" is true, they have probably reached the most literal conclusion of what that means.

So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?
I personally believe it is faith alone. We are regenerated and produce fruit. When yoir heart is changed, you synergistically work with the Holy Spirit to become more Christlike. Sanctification/theosis.

I am not going to judge anyone on what I perceive as a lack of works or fruit. Or what kind of works or fruits that is.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Martin Q. Blank
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1:12p, 12/12/24
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It's clear that faith is a condition of obtaining eternal life, but it is not a work.
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The Banned
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 1:16p, 12/12/24
Martin Q. Blank said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It's clear that faith is a condition of obtaining eternal life, but it is not a work.


But is it a choice?
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dermdoc
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1:16p, 12/12/24
AG
Work is a four letter word for some believers.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to The Banned • 1:20p, 12/12/24
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It's clear that faith is a condition of obtaining eternal life, but it is not a work.
But is it a choice?
Of course, we don't begrudgingly believe in God against our will. Not sure what that has to do with your OP anyway.
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The Banned
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In reply to dermdoc • 1:20p, 12/12/24
But you believe that God will eventually win over our free will correct? So in the end, we don't really have a choice in our salvation?

To compare it to Calvinism, it's a double predestination, but one in which both groups (believers and non-believers) end up in heaven. God is gonna make them have faith, dang it!

*Winky face to ease the slight of comparing your faith to a theology you don't like*
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10andBOUNCE
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1:25p, 12/12/24
AG
The OP is a frequent question that a Calvinist would ask of an Arminian who would not affirm a works based salvation.

If the burden is upon man to ultimately believe the gospel and follow Christ without God's intervention, then it is the work of man to obtain salvation.
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The Banned
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 1:25p, 12/12/24
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It's clear that faith is a condition of obtaining eternal life, but it is not a work.
But is it a choice?
Of course, we don't begrudgingly believe in God against our will. Not sure what that has to do with your OP anyway.


The OP is if we have to choose to have faith, why isn't this a work? Choosing is an action. What is a work if not an action?
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The Banned
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 1:27p, 12/12/24
10andBOUNCE said:
The OP is a frequent question that a Calvinist would ask of an Arminian who would not affirm a works based salvation.

If the burden is upon man to ultimately believe the gospel and follow Christ without God's intervention, then it is a work of man to obtain salvation.


I think you'll have to clarify God's intervention here
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to The Banned • 1:30p, 12/12/24
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It's clear that faith is a condition of obtaining eternal life, but it is not a work.
But is it a choice?
Of course, we don't begrudgingly believe in God against our will. Not sure what that has to do with your OP anyway.
The OP is if we have to choose to have faith, why isn't this a work? Choosing is an action. What is a work if not an action?
Faith is resting, believing, trusting. It requires no work on my part.
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10andBOUNCE
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In reply to The Banned • 1:32p, 12/12/24
AG
The Banned said:
10andBOUNCE said:
The OP is a frequent question that a Calvinist would ask of an Arminian who would not affirm a works based salvation.

If the burden is upon man to ultimately believe the gospel and follow Christ without God's intervention, then it is a work of man to obtain salvation.


I think you'll have to clarify God's intervention here
Regeneration would be the term.

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

https://learn.ligonier.org/devotionals/regeneration-start?srsltid=AfmBOorSfKT28ZcKefAorlN27-nNu3nPuNryZr7rY29s3XeoTfVWst8F
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The Banned
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 1:38p, 12/12/24
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It's clear that faith is a condition of obtaining eternal life, but it is not a work.
But is it a choice?
Of course, we don't begrudgingly believe in God against our will. Not sure what that has to do with your OP anyway.
The OP is if we have to choose to have faith, why isn't this a work? Choosing is an action. What is a work if not an action?
Faith is resting, believing, trusting. It requires no work on my part.


Believing and trusting are an action of the will, right? We don't just "have" trust. We need to assent to it, don't we? It requires some sort of action on our end.
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dermdoc
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In reply to The Banned • 1:39p, 12/12/24
AG
The Banned said:
But you believe that God will eventually win over our free will correct? So in the end, we don't really have a choice in our salvation?

To compare it to Calvinism, it's a double predestination, but one in which both groups (believers and non-believers) end up in heaven. God is gonna make them have faith, dang it!

*Winky face to ease the slight of comparing your faith to a theology you don't like*
As you know, I have thought through this for years.

First of all, I believe double predestination is an abomination and besmirches God's character under the new covenant and revelation of Jesus Christ.

I believe in free will. Scripture is clear that God desires to save all men (which is another revelation of His character) and that God is love (yet another revelation of His character).

So basically it comes down to does God allow man free will to completely reject him? That would be the ultimate love part of His character and is what CS Lewis believed. That the only people in hell are those who choose to be.

And I am okay with that.

But then on the other side you have God's sovereignty and desire to save all men. And the question is does God over ride free will?

I actually go back and forth on this thought and am okay with either.
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The Banned
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In reply to dermdoc • 1:43p, 12/12/24
dermdoc said:
The Banned said:
But you believe that God will eventually win over our free will correct? So in the end, we don't really have a choice in our salvation?

To compare it to Calvinism, it's a double predestination, but one in which both groups (believers and non-believers) end up in heaven. God is gonna make them have faith, dang it!

*Winky face to ease the slight of comparing your faith to a theology you don't like*
As you know, I have thought through this for years.

First of all, I believe double predestination is an abomination and besmirches God's character under the new covenant and revelation of Jesus Christ.

I believe in free will. Scripture is clear that God desires to save all men (which is another revelation of His character) and that God is love (yet another revelation of His character).

So basically it comes down to does God allow man free will to completely reject him? That would be the ultimate love part of His character and is what CS Lewis believed. That the only people in hell are those who choose to be.

And I am okay with that.

But then on the other side you have God's sovereignty and desire to save all men. And the question is does God over ride free will?

I actually go back and forth on this thought and am okay with either.


Gotcha. I thought you were fully in the second camp.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to The Banned • 1:45p, 12/12/24
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It's clear that faith is a condition of obtaining eternal life, but it is not a work.
But is it a choice?
Of course, we don't begrudgingly believe in God against our will. Not sure what that has to do with your OP anyway.
The OP is if we have to choose to have faith, why isn't this a work? Choosing is an action. What is a work if not an action?
Faith is resting, believing, trusting. It requires no work on my part.


Believing and trusting are an action of the will, right? We don't just "have" trust. We need to assent to it, don't we? It requires some sort of action on our end.
Maybe (I don't know enough about philosophy to say whether it's an action of the will or not), but that still doesn't make it a work in the common use of the word like providing charity to someone.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 1:47p, 12/12/24
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It's clear that faith is a condition of obtaining eternal life, but it is not a work.
But is it a choice?
Of course, we don't begrudgingly believe in God against our will. Not sure what that has to do with your OP anyway.
The OP is if we have to choose to have faith, why isn't this a work? Choosing is an action. What is a work if not an action?
Faith is resting, believing, trusting. It requires no work on my part.


Believing and trusting are an action of the will, right? We don't just "have" trust. We need to assent to it, don't we? It requires some sort of action on our end.
Maybe (I don't know enough about philosophy to say whether it's an action of the will or not), but that still doesn't make it a work in the common use of the word like providing charity to someone.
Would it matter if it was? Is not the result the same? Sometimes I think we argue just to argue. It does not take away from God's sovereignty, in my opinion, if we have free will. In fact, I think it enhances God's sovereignty and also shows love which Scripture says God is.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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10andBOUNCE
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1:47p, 12/12/24
AG
"Oh! if God were to put my salvation in my hands, I should be lost in ten minutes; but my salvation is not there-it is in Christ's hands."
- Charles Spurgeon
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dermdoc
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In reply to 10andBOUNCE • 1:49p, 12/12/24
AG
10andBOUNCE said:
"Oh! if God were to put my salvation in my hands, I should be lost in ten minutes; but my salvation is not there-it is in Christ's hands."
- Charles Spurgeon
I have no problem with him or anyone else believing that. I just do not believe work is a four letter expletive.
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The Banned
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:03p, 12/12/24
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
The Banned said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

It's clear that faith is a condition of obtaining eternal life, but it is not a work.
But is it a choice?
Of course, we don't begrudgingly believe in God against our will. Not sure what that has to do with your OP anyway.
The OP is if we have to choose to have faith, why isn't this a work? Choosing is an action. What is a work if not an action?
Faith is resting, believing, trusting. It requires no work on my part.


Believing and trusting are an action of the will, right? We don't just "have" trust. We need to assent to it, don't we? It requires some sort of action on our end.
Maybe (I don't know enough about philosophy to say whether it's an action of the will or not), but that still doesn't make it a work in the common use of the word like providing charity to someone.


I appreciate the feedback. Do you believe in once saved always saved?
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to The Banned • 2:10p, 12/12/24
I believe there is an objective salvation of a person which begins with them being justified before God, sanctified in this world, and glorified in the next. That we may ever trust that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Subjectively, we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and make our calling and election sure, because there is a threat of falling away and not entering God's rest.
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The Banned
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:19p, 12/12/24
Martin Q. Blank said:
I believe there is an objective salvation of a person which begins with them being justified before God, sanctified in this world, and glorified in the next. That we may ever trust that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Subjectively, we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and make our calling and election sure, because there is a threat of falling away and not entering God's rest.


You're one of very few Protestants that I've heard of believing of falling away. Do you mind if I ask what denomination you ascribe to?
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Zobel
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2:24p, 12/12/24
AG
pitting faith / faithfulness against work / action is just a complete mess...a nonsensical intellectual exercise to split the two apart, angels dancing on a pinhead. no practical value, no pastoral value, no evangelical value.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Zobel • 2:37p, 12/12/24
I think it's useful in that righteousness springs from faith. There have been many efforts to accomplish it by other ways, but they won't attain it.

Rom. 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone
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The Banned
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In reply to Zobel • 2:38p, 12/12/24
Zobel said:
pitting faith / faithfulness against work / action is just a complete mess...a nonsensical intellectual exercise to split the two apart, angels dancing on a pinhead. no practical value, no pastoral value, no evangelical value.


I would agree with that inside of the traditional faiths. But when running into the different takes on "faith alone" primarily driving to monergism, it's worth the intellectual exercise, in my opinion.

ETA: I believe this question is leading to the rise of reformed doctrine, which is why I ask it.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 2:41p, 12/12/24
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
I believe there is an objective salvation of a person which begins with them being justified before God, sanctified in this world, and glorified in the next. That we may ever trust that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Subjectively, we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and make our calling and election sure, because there is a threat of falling away and not entering God's rest.
I agree.
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Zobel
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 3:16p, 12/12/24
AG
even verses like that get misunderstood. St Paul is talking about keeping the law as an end, meaning being a jew, not the torah as such. thats why he says its good to keep the torah, and affirms the torah. but 'works of the law' and 'good works' aren't the same thing. one is not salvific, the other is.

the thing to me is that there isn't a single major christian tradition that teaches works apart from faithfulness to christ saves ... because it's contradicted in the scriptures and pelagianism was declared a heresy.

so what good is it dividing over it?
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Zobel • 3:28p, 12/12/24
Because we are prone to pursue it ourselves outside of faith. We need to be reminded that it springs from faith and attempting by other ways is futile.

I missed the previous verse.
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone.
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The Banned
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In reply to Zobel • 3:42p, 12/12/24
Zobel said:
even verses like that get misunderstood. St Paul is talking about keeping the law as an end, meaning being a jew, not the torah as such. thats why he says its good to keep the torah, and affirms the torah. but 'works of the law' and 'good works' aren't the same thing. one is not salvific, the other is.

the thing to me is that there isn't a single major christian tradition that teaches works apart from faithfulness to christ saves ... because it's contradicted in the scriptures and pelagianism was declared a heresy.

so what good is it dividing over it?


With all due respect, I think it's much easier to say that as an EO. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you've received as many accusations of trying to work your way to salvation that the average Catholic has. The idea of faith alone was the pivotal point of the reformation, which is why things like total depravity, limited free will, etc exist today. I admit that I don't know EO history as well as I should, but I don't think the reformation was really an issue for y'all.
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dermdoc
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In reply to The Banned • 3:45p, 12/12/24
AG
The Banned said:
Zobel said:
even verses like that get misunderstood. St Paul is talking about keeping the law as an end, meaning being a jew, not the torah as such. thats why he says its good to keep the torah, and affirms the torah. but 'works of the law' and 'good works' aren't the same thing. one is not salvific, the other is.

the thing to me is that there isn't a single major christian tradition that teaches works apart from faithfulness to christ saves ... because it's contradicted in the scriptures and pelagianism was declared a heresy.

so what good is it dividing over it?


With all due respect, I think it's much easier to say that as an EO. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt you've received as many accusations of trying to work your way to salvation that the average Catholic has. The idea of faith alone was the pivotal point of the reformation, which is why things like total depravity, limited free will, etc exist today. I admit that I don't know EO history as well as I should, but I don't think the reformation was really an issue for y'all.
I am not Catholic. But I have read enough to know they do not advocate a works based salvation. I think there is a ton of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge. I know growing up in the Baptist church I was taught Catholics believed in a works based salvation. And that is still being taught today. Which is why the word "work" has become a four letter expletive in many Evangelical and Protestant circles.

I believe that is totally incorrect. I was shocked when at a funeral for a devout Catholic doc buddy of ours, the Evangelical docs questioned his salvation. Sorry, but I got pissed off. How wrong and how arrogant.

And even if you wrongly believe that, a funeral is no place to bring it up. I am still mad. And these are friends of mine. Could not believe it.
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Zobel
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 3:59p, 12/12/24
AG
i think that assumes the false dichotomy. we're prone to pursue righteousness outside of faith? how does that even make sense? if we're talking about christians, we're talking about people who are faithful to the messiah. so what righteousness could they possibly be pursuing other than that of Jesus?

the point St Paul is making in that verse is they were pursuing righteousness by following the torah as Jews, as if being a Jew made you righteous. that's the same thing he tells St Peter - a man is not made righteous by keeping the Torah but by faithfulness to the messiah, because by keeping the torah no man will be made righteous.

the argument is never "good works aren't salvific". clearly they are - that's what we're judged by in every parable, every epistle - we will be judged for what we have done. not what we have intellectually assented to.

the argument St paul makes over and over is that keeping the torah in and of itself isn't salvific. or in other words, being jewish in and of itself isn't salvific.

the dichotomy in the scriptures is whether you need to be jewish or not to be saved. not whether you need to do good works or not. because the scriptures absolutely come down on the side of yes, you need to do good works to be saved. but there is no concept of good works apart from faithfulness - they are the stuff faithfulness is made from, they are the tangible reality.

again - in the end every christian sect i know of agrees that good works and faithfulness are fundamentally and essentially linked.

if we disconnect them you end up with this strange idea that you can faith real hard and not do anything and be saved - that's not a thing, and i don't think any christian group teaches that. i don't even know what that would look like?

likewise the matching other half idea that you work real hard in a way that isn't faithful to the messiah you can be saved. one example of why this is wrong is keeping the torah without faithfulness. that's also not a thing, no christian group believes that.

but who would argue against working hard in faithfulness? that is commanded to us, everyone agrees. so.... why argue about it? go be faithful. that's what the christian life is.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Zobel • 4:10p, 12/12/24
AG
Zobel said:
i think that assumes the false dichotomy. we're prone to pursue righteousness outside of faith? how does that even make sense? if we're talking about christians, we're talking about people who are faithful to the messiah. so what righteousness could they possibly be pursuing other than that of Jesus?

the point St Paul is making in that verse is they were pursuing righteousness by following the torah as Jews, as if being a Jew made you righteous. that's the same thing he tells St Peter - a man is not made righteous by keeping the Torah but by faithfulness to the messiah, because by keeping the torah no man will be made righteous.

the argument is never "good works aren't salvific". clearly they are - that's what we're judged by in every parable, every epistle - we will be judged for what we have done. not what we have intellectually assented to.

the argument St paul makes over and over is that keeping the torah in and of itself isn't salvific. or in other words, being jewish in and of itself isn't salvific.

the dichotomy in the scriptures is whether you need to be jewish or not to be saved. not whether you need to do good works or not. because the scriptures absolutely come down on the side of yes, you need to do good works to be saved. but there is no concept of good works apart from faithfulness - they are the stuff faithfulness is made from, they are the tangible reality.

again - in the end every christian sect i know of agrees that good works and faithfulness are fundamentally and essentially linked.

if we disconnect them you end up with this strange idea that you can faith real hard and not do anything and be saved - that's not a thing, and i don't think any christian group teaches that. i don't even know what that would look like?

likewise the matching other half idea that you work real hard in a way that isn't faithful to the messiah you can be saved. one example of why this is wrong is keeping the torah without faithfulness. that's also not a thing, no christian group believes that.

but who would argue against working hard in faithfulness? that is commanded to us, everyone agrees. so.... why argue about it? go be faithful. that's what the christian life is.
Agree. I really do not understand the thought process. I have had discussions with Evangelical/Calvinist friends and seriously nothing can be a "work". In fact, it is anathema to even mention works.

It is bizarre to me and I was raised in the Baptist church.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to Zobel • 4:17p, 12/12/24
Zobel said:
i think that assumes the false dichotomy. we're prone to pursue righteousness outside of faith? how does that even make sense? if we're talking about christians, we're talking about people who are faithful to the messiah. so what righteousness could they possibly be pursuing other than that of Jesus?
One outside of Jesus. We're not perfect and need reminding of the object of our faith and the source of good works.
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the point St Paul is making in that verse is they were pursuing righteousness by following the torah as Jews, as if being a Jew made you righteous. that's the same thing he tells St Peter - a man is not made righteous by keeping the Torah but by faithfulness to the messiah, because by keeping the torah no man will be made righteous.
Two great case studies. But there are other devices we make up to pursue righteousness outside of faith.
Quote:
the argument is never "good works aren't salvific". clearly they are - that's what we're judged by in every parable, every epistle - we will be judged for what we have done. not what we have intellectually assented to.
Intellecutal assent is not the only aspect of faith.
Quote:
again - in the end every christian sect i know of agrees that good works and faithfulness are fundamentally and essentially linked.
Again, it's great we can all agree. That doesn't make us perfect. I always need reminding that faith in Christ is the means to pursue righteousness. Not myself. Christ is the one who can and will accomplish my salvation.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 4:20p, 12/12/24
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
Zobel said:
i think that assumes the false dichotomy. we're prone to pursue righteousness outside of faith? how does that even make sense? if we're talking about christians, we're talking about people who are faithful to the messiah. so what righteousness could they possibly be pursuing other than that of Jesus?
One outside of Jesus. We're not perfect and need reminding of the object of our faith and the source of good works.
Quote:
the point St Paul is making in that verse is they were pursuing righteousness by following the torah as Jews, as if being a Jew made you righteous. that's the same thing he tells St Peter - a man is not made righteous by keeping the Torah but by faithfulness to the messiah, because by keeping the torah no man will be made righteous.
Two great case studies. But there are other devices we make up to pursue righteousness outside of faith.
Quote:
the argument is never "good works aren't salvific". clearly they are - that's what we're judged by in every parable, every epistle - we will be judged for what we have done. not what we have intellectually assented to.
Intellecutal assent is not the only aspect of faith.
Quote:
again - in the end every christian sect i know of agrees that good works and faithfulness are fundamentally and essentially linked.
Again, it's great we can all agree. That doesn't make us perfect. I always need reminding that faith in Christ is the means to pursue righteousness. Not myself. Christ is the one who can and will accomplish my salvation.
Agree. Great to focus on unifying thoughts rather than divisive ones.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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