Free Will & Salvation

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10andBOUNCE
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Carrying this over from another thread since I am genuinely curious the position that many (if not most Christians) hold. As some know, I hold the Augustinian/Reformed view of God's monergistic role in salvation. I am just trying to understand the other side of the coin, in good faith

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?
dermdoc
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Scripture is clear that God desires all men to be saved. And all men are not saved. Therefore man via his free will can reject the Gospel.

I personally believe that God through His Holy Spirit, woos all men. Some accept, some reject. Without free will, how could God truly love mankind? And Scripture clearly states that God is love.

I also believe that God is sovereign and all knowing and therefore knows who will accept the gospel and those who will not.

But He does not force anyone to do anything unconditionally. And I believe He weeps when anyone rejects His free gift of grace.

My main problem with monergism is what it does to the character of God as revealed through Jesus Christ.

Why would a loving God create billions of people who had no chance to escape Hell? What would be the purpose of that? Just for the hell of it? To "receive glory" from torturing people eternally He created? Think about the depravity of that. Creating people just to eternally torture them. Eternally.

What would that say about God's character? It would make him into the most horrible monster of all time. Worse than Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, etc.

And God could be like that as He is sovereign and can do as He pleases. I do not believe that is His character as based on His revealed character by Jesus and the entirety of Scripture.

And honestly, no one will change their mind on this. And you can parse Scriptural support for monergism. I believe that people become Reformed/calvinist first and then read all Scripture through that lens. And even add word like "all kinds of men" rather than what the Scripture plainly says "all men".

I am very leery also of any group, that in my life experiences, believe they are the only "real" Christians.
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Mostly Peaceful
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The question remains, why do some believe and others don't?
dermdoc
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Mostly Peaceful said:

The question remains, why do some believe and others don't?
Because they have free will and choose to.

Why would a good, loving God create billions of people with their only destiny is eternal torture? What is the character of the Calvinist God?

Say you had a king who ruled over a million people. He arbitrarily chooses 100k people and tortures (fortunately he can not do it for eternity) the rest until they die. And they had no choice in their fate.

Would you consider that king just, good, merciful, and loving? And are those attributes of Gid as described in Scripture? I posted a topic on God's attributes that is still on the front page. Read that and try to apply that to the Calvinist God.
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10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

Why would a loving God create billions of people who had no chance to escape Hell?
So this is another interesting question for another day that I don't think ever gets enough attention in any religious circles. Basically questions of why man was created. In the end God did it all for his glory and who are we to question with our finite brains what brings God the most glory? While I agree with this sentiment, I think it is often not scratching the itch of mine; maybe I am wrong for even wanting more of an answer than that. Likely we are not supposed to know these greater purposes of God. But a question I wrestle with none the less.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?
I'm definitely in the synergist camp. I would dispute your unspoken assumption that conscious, purposeful belief in the Gospel is what merits salvation.

There is a good and long discussion about this on the "Pope says all religions lead to God" thread down the page. To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability. The time point that this is determined is the time leading up to death.
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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

Why would a loving God create billions of people who had no chance to escape Hell?
So this is another interesting question for another day that I don't think ever gets enough attention in any religious circles. Basically questions of why man was created. In the end God did it all for his glory and who are we to question with our finite brains what brings God the most glory? While I agree with this sentiment, I think it is often not scratching the itch of mine; maybe I am wrong for even wanting more of an answer than that. Likely we are not supposed to know these greater purposes of God. But a question I wrestle with none the less.
And my friend, that bothers me a lot. We are different. And that is why Calvinism theology of double predestination bothers me and not you. I could not have had children if I thought there was a chance they were already damned to eternal torment which is the logical endpoint of double predestination.

But we are all brothers in Christ even though some of my Calvinist acquaintances do not really consider me one.

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10andBOUNCE
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From a reformed perspective, we believe God leaving us to our own devices and forcing us to choose which door we want to enter all on our own would be unmerciful since we believe we no longer have the moral ability to choose God after the fall of man. So God in his grace and love causes a new spiritual birth within his elect when we ourselves are incapable.

We ALL deserve wrath based on our original sin condition and inability for righteousness without his intervening. Anything less than ALL receiving wrath is mercy.

(Obviously we disagree)
10andBOUNCE
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?
To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.
So, what forms our desires?
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

From a reformed perspective, we believe God leaving us to our own devices and forcing us to choose which door we want to enter all on our own would be unmerciful since we believe we no longer have the moral ability to choose God after the fall of man. So God in his grace and love causes a new spiritual birth within his elect when we ourselves are incapable.

We ALL deserve wrath based on our original sin condition and inability for righteousness without his intervening. Anything less than ALL receiving wrath is mercy.

(Obviously we disagree)
Do you agree Scripture states God desires all men to be saved?

And with all due respect, I know the Reformed view all too well. And yes we disagree.

I agree that we all deserve God's wrath due to our sin. I believe God gives all men a chance via there free will to accept or reject Him. Otherwise, how is God just, merciful, loving, etc. as listed in Scripture?
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ramblin_ag02
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10andBOUNCE said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?
To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.
So, what forms our desires?
That depends on what you mean. We all have inherent desires to love God and act in ways pleasing to Him. We also all have inherent desires to sin and act in ways contrary to God. Then we each have a limited free will granted by God to choose between the two.

The ability to do good, the ability to do evil, and the ability to choose between them are basic assumptions of any system that carries moral consequences. And Christianity is a system that carries the gravest moral consequences
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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?
To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.
So, what forms our desires?
I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like.
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dermdoc
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So if Calvinism is correct, do you agree God's character would be the same as the king in the analogy I presented?

And if so, how is that consistent with the attributes of God as described in Scripture that I posted?

Do you think God is just, merciful, and loving if He creates people pre ordained to eternal torment for His glory and pleasure?
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10andBOUNCE
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I get that, but I am talking about the period BEFORE you choose Christ. If we are all born with the ability to pursue/desire God on our own, why is it that some actually follow Christ and others do not.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

I get that, but I am talking about the period BEFORE you choose Christ. If we are all born with the ability to pursue/desire God on our own, why is it that some actually follow Christ and others do not.
Because they have free will and choose to.

And can you please address the character of the Calvinist God who creates people doomed to eternal torment?
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10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

From a reformed perspective, we believe God leaving us to our own devices and forcing us to choose which door we want to enter all on our own would be unmerciful since we believe we no longer have the moral ability to choose God after the fall of man. So God in his grace and love causes a new spiritual birth within his elect when we ourselves are incapable.

We ALL deserve wrath based on our original sin condition and inability for righteousness without his intervening. Anything less than ALL receiving wrath is mercy.

(Obviously we disagree)
Otherwise, how is God just, merciful, loving, etc. as listed in Scripture?
If we all deserve his eternal punishment from the onset due to our sin nature, us receiving it is purely justice. It is not un-loving to punish an offender who is guilty. Because he does in fact change the hearts of some, he is merciful and loving.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

From a reformed perspective, we believe God leaving us to our own devices and forcing us to choose which door we want to enter all on our own would be unmerciful since we believe we no longer have the moral ability to choose God after the fall of man. So God in his grace and love causes a new spiritual birth within his elect when we ourselves are incapable.

We ALL deserve wrath based on our original sin condition and inability for righteousness without his intervening. Anything less than ALL receiving wrath is mercy.

(Obviously we disagree)
Otherwise, how is God just, merciful, loving, etc. as listed in Scripture?
If we all deserve his eternal punishment from the onset due to our sin nature, us receiving it is purely justice. It is not un-loving to punish an offender who is guilty. Because he does in fact change the hearts of some, he is merciful and loving.
But why does He create people that have no chance and pre ordained to eternal torment? What would you say about His character?

And does not a guilty offender chooses to break the law?

It is very Hilteresque. The Aryans are the elect and everybody else is created to be tortured. Eternally. With zero chance.

I do not believe that is justice, mercy, or love.
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Mostly Peaceful
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?
To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.
So, what forms our desires?
I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like.
I agree with you here 100%. Where we disagree is why we choose Jesus. I believe it is because He chose me according to His sovereign will alone. And if I understand your view correctly, you believe in Jesus because you choose to.

I don't believe that just because God chooses who He saves, it must mean that He chooses who goes to hell. Admittedly, I have no clue how it all works. If I had the maximally perfect mind of God though, I bet I would.

Lastly, I am truly sorry for the bad experiences you have had with reformed/calvinist believers. I have the utmost respect for you and consider us brothers. And I'm very grateful for these conversations.
10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

I get that, but I am talking about the period BEFORE you choose Christ. If we are all born with the ability to pursue/desire God on our own, why is it that some actually follow Christ and others do not.
Because they have free will and choose to.

And can you please address the character of the Calvinist God who creates people doomed to eternal torment?
I mean, God created Adam and Eve. Beyond that, people and their free will kind of populated the earth.

Regardless of if it is man or God choosing, there are still people that will be in eternal torment.

Shouldn't a loving God just intervene on the behalf of all his creation? Wouldn't that be MORE loving?
Agilaw
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I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"? Answer is usually - Yes. How lucky is your family to have won the "Chosen" lottery? Are most of your friends "chosen"?...

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?

If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?

dermdoc
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Mostly Peaceful said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?
To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.
So, what forms our desires?
I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like.
I agree with you here 100%. Where we disagree is why we choose Jesus. I believe it is because He chose me according to His sovereign will alone. And if I understand your view correctly, you believe in Jesus because you choose to.

I don't believe that just because God chooses who He saves, it must mean that He chooses who goes to hell. Admittedly, I have no clue how it all works. If I had the maximally perfect mind of God though, I bet I would.

Lastly, I am truly sorry for the bad experiences you have had with reformed/calvinist believers. I have the utmost respect for you and consider us brothers. And I'm very grateful for these conversations.

Thanks and your response shows grace that I appreciate. And like you, I admit I do not know how it all works. My experience is that Reformed/calvinists do believe they know how it all works exactly. And are intolerant of any other views.

I was raised Baptist. And Calvinist theology is not anything like traditional Baptist beliefs. And I treasure those beliefs and think Calvinists should stay out of Baptist seminaries, pastoring, and leadership.
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dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

I get that, but I am talking about the period BEFORE you choose Christ. If we are all born with the ability to pursue/desire God on our own, why is it that some actually follow Christ and others do not.
Because they have free will and choose to.

And can you please address the character of the Calvinist God who creates people doomed to eternal torment?
I mean, God created Adam and Eve. Beyond that, people and their free will kind of populated the earth.

Regardless of if it is man or God choosing, there are still people that will be in eternal torment.

Shouldn't a loving God just intervene on the behalf of all his creation? Wouldn't that be MORE loving?
Yes it would. And I believe He does intervene and make Himself known to all people. That is clearly stated in Scripture. But because He loves us, He gave us free will to accept or reject Him. So people choose hell.

And that would be truly just.
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10andBOUNCE
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Agilaw said:

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:64-66
"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
10andBOUNCE
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dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

I get that, but I am talking about the period BEFORE you choose Christ. If we are all born with the ability to pursue/desire God on our own, why is it that some actually follow Christ and others do not.
Because they have free will and choose to.

And can you please address the character of the Calvinist God who creates people doomed to eternal torment?
I mean, God created Adam and Eve. Beyond that, people and their free will kind of populated the earth.

Regardless of if it is man or God choosing, there are still people that will be in eternal torment.

Shouldn't a loving God just intervene on the behalf of all his creation? Wouldn't that be MORE loving?
But because He loves us, He gave us free will to accept or reject Him.
Would it be more loving if I let my son use his free will and choose to go up close to the rattlesnake I have warned him of over and over again? Or would it be more loving if I drug him backwards away from it no matter what?
10andBOUNCE
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Agilaw said:

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
From the reformed perspective, we believe these teachings date back to the very beginning of Biblical history through Jesus and then the Apostles. This wasn't invented by Augustine and acted on by Luther and codified by Calvin.

Again, I am sure we disagree with that ability to trace the doctrines of grace back that far, but this is what we hold to be true.

Probably why I am not a huge fan of being called a "Calvinist" - he didn't invent the doctrine. It has always been there.
dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

Agilaw said:

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:64-66
"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
I believe God draws all men and they choose to accept or reject Him. And I believe that interpretation is compatible when put in context with other Scripture.

And I stated that God knows who will believe and who will not. But He does not force any behavior.

Do you believe Scripture clearly states that God desires all men to be saved?

1 Timothy 2 3-4

2 Peter 3 9
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Mostly Peaceful
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Agilaw said:

I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers.

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly.


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me.


dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

Agilaw said:

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
From the reformed perspective, we believe these teachings date back to the very beginning of Biblical history through Jesus and then the Apostles. This wasn't invented by Augustine and acted on by Luther and codified by Calvin.

Again, I am sure we disagree with that ability to trace the doctrines of grace back that far, but this is what we hold to be true.

Probably why I am not a huge fan of being called a "Calvinist" - he didn't invent the doctrine. It has always been there.
Why do/did the vast majority of church fathers and past/present theologians disagree the theology that Calvin "codified"?

Are they heretics? Are they not of the elect? And if they are of the elect l why do they believe differently? Why do you need preaching of the Word if there is unconditional election? It has already been divinely decided, correct?

Because this is a huge deal.
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jrico2727
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They say if you love someone you'll let them go free, and see if they return to you.

Who loves more than God?
dermdoc
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Mostly Peaceful said:

Agilaw said:

I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers.

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly.


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me.



Fair enough,

We have discussed the attributes of God as stated in Scripture.

How do you view the character of an entity who creates humans for ultimate eternal torture? With them having no choice?

Is that just, merciful, and loving in your opinion?

And I actually lost any Reformed/Calvinist leanings after reading the Bible through numerous times. Do you believe Paul wrote 1 Timothy?
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Mostly Peaceful
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dermdoc said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

Agilaw said:

I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers.

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly.


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me.



Fair enough,

We have discussed the attributes of God as stated in Scripture.

How do you view the character of an entity who creates humans for ultimate eternal torture? With them having no choice?

Is that just, merciful, and loving in your opinion?
I don't believe God creates humans for ultimate eternal torture. I think this is where the main disconnect is. And I completely understand because this was my natural response to the idea of unconditional election.
dermdoc
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AG
Mostly Peaceful said:

dermdoc said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

Agilaw said:

I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers.

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly.


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me.



Fair enough,

We have discussed the attributes of God as stated in Scripture.

How do you view the character of an entity who creates humans for ultimate eternal torture? With them having no choice?

Is that just, merciful, and loving in your opinion?
I don't believe God creates humans for ultimate eternal torture. I think this is where the main disconnect is. And I completely understand because this was my natural response to the idea of unconditional election.
Then what happens to the ones God passes over? And did He create them? What other destiny do they have through no choice of their own?

Are you saying you do not believe in double pre destination? And I rejoice if you do not.
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10andBOUNCE
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AG
dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

Agilaw said:

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
From the reformed perspective, we believe these teachings date back to the very beginning of Biblical history through Jesus and then the Apostles. This wasn't invented by Augustine and acted on by Luther and codified by Calvin.

Again, I am sure we disagree with that ability to trace the doctrines of grace back that far, but this is what we hold to be true.

Probably why I am not a huge fan of being called a "Calvinist" - he didn't invent the doctrine. It has always been there.
Why do/did the vast majority of church fathers and past/present theologians disagree the theology that Calvin "codified"?

Are they heretics? Are they not of the elect? And if they are of the elect l why do they believe differently? Why do you need preaching of the Word if there is unconditional election? It has already been divinely decided, correct?

Because this is a huge deal.
Define vast majority.

And why does majority really have to do with it? The majority of people on this planet don't profess to be Christian. Since the majority is anti Christian is that not proof that we have it all wrong? Majority rules?
Again...
John 6:64-66
"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.


The puritans were largely reformed as they came to the new world. Many of the ivy league schools we know today all started as seminaries and to my knowledge leaned reformed (crazy to even consider these modern day ivy league schools were completely different upon inception).

Liberalism within the church eventually crept in and with the idea of salvation being more inclusive than what the reformed view speaks to with the hints of more than one way to God (see latest Pope incident) and that truth was not REALLY truth.
Mostly Peaceful
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dermdoc said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

dermdoc said:

Mostly Peaceful said:

Agilaw said:

I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers.

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly.


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me.



Fair enough,

We have discussed the attributes of God as stated in Scripture.

How do you view the character of an entity who creates humans for ultimate eternal torture? With them having no choice?

Is that just, merciful, and loving in your opinion?
I don't believe God creates humans for ultimate eternal torture. I think this is where the main disconnect is. And I completely understand because this was my natural response to the idea of unconditional election.
Then what happens to the ones God passes over? And did He create them? What other destiny do they have through no choice of their own?
Again, I have no idea how it works. Do you not believe it is possible that God could have a perfectly just plan for salvation that our finite minds cannot comprehend?

There is the view that God's election is based on foreseen faith, meaning that in eternity past, God chose those whom He knew would respond positively to His invitation. While I don't agree with this interpretation, it does offer a scenario my temporal mind can understand where God chooses who He saves without violating my sense of justice. Not that my sense of justice matters.

I have a hard time understanding why God commanded the Israelites to kill all the Canaanite women and children. But I don't doubt He was just in doing so.
Agilaw
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AG
I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers. Don't you really mean they haven't yet discovered that they are actually already saved?

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly. Matthew 7 - enter through the narrow gate (is He telling the people to do something they can't really do because they aren't chosen? Along the lines of being told to repent when you can't really repent because you haven't been chosen?


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. No need for that to happen as it has no effect on the hearer as the hearer can't take action - they are already saved. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I agree with you on this one - salvations seem to happen where the Gospel is being preached - because people can choose to respond to the Gospel message. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. Very few individuals in those countries have won the chosen lottery don't you think? I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time. The whole of the scriptures scream a God who wants people to be saved and be holy - not you are so lucky that I chose you and I have not chose others and condemned them to an eternity apart from Me and there is nothing you or they can do about it.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me. I won't repost Derm's responses to this one.
 
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