Mostly Peaceful said:

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The question remains, why do some believe and others don't?

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dermdoc said:

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Why would a loving God create billions of people who had no chance to escape Hell?

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Quote:

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What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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Why would a loving God create billions of people who had no chance to escape Hell?

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So this is another interesting question for another day that I don't think ever gets enough attention in any religious circles. Basically questions of why man was created. In the end God did it all for his glory and who are we to question with our finite brains what brings God the most glory? While I agree with this sentiment, I think it is often not scratching the itch of mine; maybe I am wrong for even wanting more of an answer than that. Likely we are not supposed to know these greater purposes of God. But a question I wrestle with none the less.

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

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To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.

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10andBOUNCE said:

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From a reformed perspective, we believe God leaving us to our own devices and forcing us to choose which door we want to enter all on our own would be unmerciful since we believe we no longer have the moral ability to choose God after the fall of man. So God in his grace and love causes a new spiritual birth within his elect when we ourselves are incapable.

We ALL deserve wrath based on our original sin condition and inability for righteousness without his intervening. Anything less than ALL receiving wrath is mercy.

(Obviously we disagree)

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

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To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.

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So, what forms our desires?

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

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To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.

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So, what forms our desires?

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I get that, but I am talking about the period BEFORE you choose Christ. If we are all born with the ability to pursue/desire God on our own, why is it that some actually follow Christ and others do not.

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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From a reformed perspective, we believe God leaving us to our own devices and forcing us to choose which door we want to enter all on our own would be unmerciful since we believe we no longer have the moral ability to choose God after the fall of man. So God in his grace and love causes a new spiritual birth within his elect when we ourselves are incapable.

We ALL deserve wrath based on our original sin condition and inability for righteousness without his intervening. Anything less than ALL receiving wrath is mercy.

(Obviously we disagree)

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Otherwise, how is God just, merciful, loving, etc. as listed in Scripture?

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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From a reformed perspective, we believe God leaving us to our own devices and forcing us to choose which door we want to enter all on our own would be unmerciful since we believe we no longer have the moral ability to choose God after the fall of man. So God in his grace and love causes a new spiritual birth within his elect when we ourselves are incapable.

We ALL deserve wrath based on our original sin condition and inability for righteousness without his intervening. Anything less than ALL receiving wrath is mercy.

(Obviously we disagree)

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Otherwise, how is God just, merciful, loving, etc. as listed in Scripture?

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If we all deserve his eternal punishment from the onset due to our sin nature, us receiving it is purely justice. It is not un-loving to punish an offender who is guilty. Because he does in fact change the hearts of some, he is merciful and loving.

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

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To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.

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So, what forms our desires?

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I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like.

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I get that, but I am talking about the period BEFORE you choose Christ. If we are all born with the ability to pursue/desire God on our own, why is it that some actually follow Christ and others do not.

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Because they have free will and choose to.

And can you please address the character of the Calvinist God who creates people doomed to eternal torment?

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

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To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.

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So, what forms our desires?

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I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like.

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I agree with you here 100%. Where we disagree is why we choose Jesus. I believe it is because He chose me according to His sovereign will alone. And if I understand your view correctly, you believe in Jesus because you choose to.

I don't believe that just because God chooses who He saves, it must mean that He chooses who goes to hell. Admittedly, I have no clue how it all works. If I had the maximally perfect mind of God though, I bet I would.

Lastly, I am truly sorry for the bad experiences you have had with reformed/calvinist believers. I have the utmost respect for you and consider us brothers. And I'm very grateful for these conversations.

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I get that, but I am talking about the period BEFORE you choose Christ. If we are all born with the ability to pursue/desire God on our own, why is it that some actually follow Christ and others do not.

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Because they have free will and choose to.

And can you please address the character of the Calvinist God who creates people doomed to eternal torment?

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I mean, God created Adam and Eve. Beyond that, people and their free will kind of populated the earth.

Regardless of if it is man or God choosing, there are still people that will be in eternal torment.

Shouldn't a loving God just intervene on the behalf of all his creation? Wouldn't that be MORE loving?

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Agilaw said:

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Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I get that, but I am talking about the period BEFORE you choose Christ. If we are all born with the ability to pursue/desire God on our own, why is it that some actually follow Christ and others do not.

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Because they have free will and choose to.

And can you please address the character of the Calvinist God who creates people doomed to eternal torment?

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I mean, God created Adam and Eve. Beyond that, people and their free will kind of populated the earth.

Regardless of if it is man or God choosing, there are still people that will be in eternal torment.

Shouldn't a loving God just intervene on the behalf of all his creation? Wouldn't that be MORE loving?

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But because He loves us, He gave us free will to accept or reject Him.

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Agilaw said:

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Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Agilaw said:

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Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?

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John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:64-66
"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

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Agilaw said:

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I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers.

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly.


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me.

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Agilaw said:

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Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?

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From the reformed perspective, we believe these teachings date back to the very beginning of Biblical history through Jesus and then the Apostles. This wasn't invented by Augustine and acted on by Luther and codified by Calvin.

Again, I am sure we disagree with that ability to trace the doctrines of grace back that far, but this is what we hold to be true.

Probably why I am not a huge fan of being called a "Calvinist" - he didn't invent the doctrine. It has always been there.

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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Agilaw said:

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I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers.

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly.


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me.

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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Agilaw said:

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I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers.

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly.


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me.

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Fair enough,

We have discussed the attributes of God as stated in Scripture.

How do you view the character of an entity who creates humans for ultimate eternal torture? With them having no choice?

Is that just, merciful, and loving in your opinion?

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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Agilaw said:

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I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers.

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly.


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me.

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Fair enough,

We have discussed the attributes of God as stated in Scripture.

How do you view the character of an entity who creates humans for ultimate eternal torture? With them having no choice?

Is that just, merciful, and loving in your opinion?

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I don't believe God creates humans for ultimate eternal torture. I think this is where the main disconnect is. And I completely understand because this was my natural response to the idea of unconditional election.

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Agilaw said:

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Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?

---

From the reformed perspective, we believe these teachings date back to the very beginning of Biblical history through Jesus and then the Apostles. This wasn't invented by Augustine and acted on by Luther and codified by Calvin.

Again, I am sure we disagree with that ability to trace the doctrines of grace back that far, but this is what we hold to be true.

Probably why I am not a huge fan of being called a "Calvinist" - he didn't invent the doctrine. It has always been there.

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Why do/did the vast majority of church fathers and past/present theologians disagree the theology that Calvin "codified"?

Are they heretics? Are they not of the elect? And if they are of the elect l why do they believe differently? Why do you need preaching of the Word if there is unconditional election? It has already been divinely decided, correct?

Because this is a huge deal.

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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Agilaw said:

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I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers.

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly.


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me.

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Fair enough,

We have discussed the attributes of God as stated in Scripture.

How do you view the character of an entity who creates humans for ultimate eternal torture? With them having no choice?

Is that just, merciful, and loving in your opinion?

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I don't believe God creates humans for ultimate eternal torture. I think this is where the main disconnect is. And I completely understand because this was my natural response to the idea of unconditional election.

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Then what happens to the ones God passes over? And did He create them? What other destiny do they have through no choice of their own?

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