AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Quote:

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What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

---

To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.

---

So, what forms our desires?

---

I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like.

---

This is pretty well the definition of pelagianism though?

---

Not as I understand it. But I could be wrong.

Pelagianism believes that original sin did not leave us with a sin nature. And that we obtained salvation by our works. It was our responsibility, not God's grace.

I believe original sin gave us a sin nature that can only be reconciled by God's grace through our faith which is a conscious decision we make via our free will. At that point, we are filled with the Holy Spirit and are born again. Our hearts are changed and we work together with the Holy Spirit to become more Christ like.

Works and fruits are a natural by product of this transformation. But we are not saved by our works. We are saved by grace and putting our faith in Jesus.

This may be a useful analogy.

A father has five children. They venture into a lake and are drowning. He has five life preservers and the ability to save them all.

In Calvinist/Reformed theology, the father (God), would choose to only save two and pass the other three by, letting them drown. And somehow that is to the father's glory.

In Arminian/all other theology, the father throws life preservers to all five and they choose whether to use them or not. The father is still sovereign but has a completely different character than the first example. And I believe that character is much more like the character revealed by Jesus.

We are so blessed to have God reveal His character through the Incarnation.

---

Sort of.

Pelagianism essentially argued that Adams fall into sin affected us in some capacity, but it did not affect our will in the sense that we could choose to not sin.

Said differently, Pelagius believed we could, of our own free will chose to do good or right.

That's where your statement gets dangerously close to his.

You said "I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like."

This reads as we, of our own free nature, outside of God, choose Him, and then at that point the Holy Spirit comes into us. This presupposes some sort of goodness outside of God that we have that allows us to make right decision on our own.

Pelagius probably would have agreed with you.

---

I posted a link describing pelagianism. From my reading, it is not what you say it is. It specifically says he did not believe in a sin nature. It said he believed we could obtain our salvation through works.

I vehemently disagree with both of those.

I specifically stated we are saved by grace through our faith. All I said is that we have free will to accept or reject the Gospel. And then we are transformed by the Holy Spirit, born again.

I guess you think it is pelagianism if I say humans make a choice. Like that is a work. From my reading, that is nothing like pelagianism.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with you. Or maybe I am not communicating well.

---

What you've tried to describe later is very different than what you said earlier. That's a good thing.

Man doesn't choose God. Man only rejects God.

Put it this way since you're a doctor.

How often does someone come in who has no symptoms come to you and say, "I'm very sick, and I need you to heal me?"Never. Augustine responded to Pelagius saying a healthy person doesn't need a doctor."

Likewise, a sick person only knows he's sick because of the symptoms he has. In our reality, those symptoms are the Law that God put into our hearts before our birth so we would be drawn to Him.

--------

The point is we don't choose because we'd never choose. We are slaves to sin. Children of wrath.

God chose us. All of us. That choice was made before our birth. Salvation is monergistic. We are saved because of God alone. In a legal sense (relating to Scripture), we are before the judge, and clearly guilty and yet the judge says Jesus will take our punishment. Do you claim you made that choice? Of course not. However, if you do stand up and say, No I don't want him to take my punishment, I'll take it myself, then you've actually made a choice.

This is why we should say our salvation is only the work of God, yet our damnation is entirely our choice.

Sorry to be harsh with you earlier, but we have to get away from this notion that we choose our salvation. We don't.

---

I am going to respond since this was directed to me. I have stated I am a synergist, not a monergist. We disagree which is okay with me.

You basically called me a proponent of pelagianism which I vehemently disagree with. You also mischaracterized what pelagianism is by definition. My link shows this.

Synergism is not pelagianism.And I do not think I have been inconsistent in my view. If you think so, sorry.

Have a great Saturday!

dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

---

To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.

---

So, what forms our desires?

---

I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like.

---

This is pretty well the definition of pelagianism though?

---

Not as I understand it. But I could be wrong.

Pelagianism believes that original sin did not leave us with a sin nature. And that we obtained salvation by our works. It was our responsibility, not God's grace.

I believe original sin gave us a sin nature that can only be reconciled by God's grace through our faith which is a conscious decision we make via our free will. At that point, we are filled with the Holy Spirit and are born again. Our hearts are changed and we work together with the Holy Spirit to become more Christ like.

Works and fruits are a natural by product of this transformation. But we are not saved by our works. We are saved by grace and putting our faith in Jesus.

This may be a useful analogy.

A father has five children. They venture into a lake and are drowning. He has five life preservers and the ability to save them all.

In Calvinist/Reformed theology, the father (God), would choose to only save two and pass the other three by, letting them drown. And somehow that is to the father's glory.

In Arminian/all other theology, the father throws life preservers to all five and they choose whether to use them or not. The father is still sovereign but has a completely different character than the first example. And I believe that character is much more like the character revealed by Jesus.

We are so blessed to have God reveal His character through the Incarnation.

---

Sort of.

Pelagianism essentially argued that Adams fall into sin affected us in some capacity, but it did not affect our will in the sense that we could choose to not sin.

Said differently, Pelagius believed we could, of our own free will chose to do good or right.

That's where your statement gets dangerously close to his.

You said "I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like."

This reads as we, of our own free nature, outside of God, choose Him, and then at that point the Holy Spirit comes into us. This presupposes some sort of goodness outside of God that we have that allows us to make right decision on our own.

Pelagius probably would have agreed with you.

---

I posted a link describing pelagianism. From my reading, it is not what you say it is. It specifically says he did not believe in a sin nature. It said he believed we could obtain our salvation through works.

I vehemently disagree with both of those.

I specifically stated we are saved by grace through our faith. All I said is that we have free will to accept or reject the Gospel. And then we are transformed by the Holy Spirit, born again.

I guess you think it is pelagianism if I say humans make a choice. Like that is a work. From my reading, that is nothing like pelagianism.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with you. Or maybe I am not communicating well.

---

What you've tried to describe later is very different than what you said earlier. That's a good thing.

Man doesn't choose God. Man only rejects God.

Put it this way since you're a doctor.

How often does someone come in who has no symptoms come to you and say, "I'm very sick, and I need you to heal me?"Never. Augustine responded to Pelagius saying a healthy person doesn't need a doctor."

Likewise, a sick person only knows he's sick because of the symptoms he has. In our reality, those symptoms are the Law that God put into our hearts before our birth so we would be drawn to Him.

--------

The point is we don't choose because we'd never choose. We are slaves to sin. Children of wrath.

God chose us. All of us. That choice was made before our birth. Salvation is monergistic. We are saved because of God alone. In a legal sense (relating to Scripture), we are before the judge, and clearly guilty and yet the judge says Jesus will take our punishment. Do you claim you made that choice? Of course not. However, if you do stand up and say, No I don't want him to take my punishment, I'll take it myself, then you've actually made a choice.

This is why we should say our salvation is only the work of God, yet our damnation is entirely our choice.

Sorry to be harsh with you earlier, but we have to get away from this notion that we choose our salvation. We don't.

---

I am going to respond since this was directed to me. I have stated I am a synergist, not a monergist. We disagree which is okay with me.

You basically called me a proponent of pelagianism which I vehemently disagree with. You also mischaracterized what pelagianism is by definition. My link shows this.

Synergism is not pelagianism.

Have a great Saturday!

---

I have not mischaracterized pelagianism.

Your initial statement was incorrect and it was challenged. That you changed your wording is good. But the correction was necessary.

AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

---

To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.

---

So, what forms our desires?

---

I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like.

---

This is pretty well the definition of pelagianism though?

---

Not as I understand it. But I could be wrong.

Pelagianism believes that original sin did not leave us with a sin nature. And that we obtained salvation by our works. It was our responsibility, not God's grace.

I believe original sin gave us a sin nature that can only be reconciled by God's grace through our faith which is a conscious decision we make via our free will. At that point, we are filled with the Holy Spirit and are born again. Our hearts are changed and we work together with the Holy Spirit to become more Christ like.

Works and fruits are a natural by product of this transformation. But we are not saved by our works. We are saved by grace and putting our faith in Jesus.

This may be a useful analogy.

A father has five children. They venture into a lake and are drowning. He has five life preservers and the ability to save them all.

In Calvinist/Reformed theology, the father (God), would choose to only save two and pass the other three by, letting them drown. And somehow that is to the father's glory.

In Arminian/all other theology, the father throws life preservers to all five and they choose whether to use them or not. The father is still sovereign but has a completely different character than the first example. And I believe that character is much more like the character revealed by Jesus.

We are so blessed to have God reveal His character through the Incarnation.

---

Sort of.

Pelagianism essentially argued that Adams fall into sin affected us in some capacity, but it did not affect our will in the sense that we could choose to not sin.

Said differently, Pelagius believed we could, of our own free will chose to do good or right.

That's where your statement gets dangerously close to his.

You said "I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like."

This reads as we, of our own free nature, outside of God, choose Him, and then at that point the Holy Spirit comes into us. This presupposes some sort of goodness outside of God that we have that allows us to make right decision on our own.

Pelagius probably would have agreed with you.

---

I posted a link describing pelagianism. From my reading, it is not what you say it is. It specifically says he did not believe in a sin nature. It said he believed we could obtain our salvation through works.

I vehemently disagree with both of those.

I specifically stated we are saved by grace through our faith. All I said is that we have free will to accept or reject the Gospel. And then we are transformed by the Holy Spirit, born again.

I guess you think it is pelagianism if I say humans make a choice. Like that is a work. From my reading, that is nothing like pelagianism.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with you. Or maybe I am not communicating well.

---

What you've tried to describe later is very different than what you said earlier. That's a good thing.

Man doesn't choose God. Man only rejects God.

Put it this way since you're a doctor.

How often does someone come in who has no symptoms come to you and say, "I'm very sick, and I need you to heal me?"Never. Augustine responded to Pelagius saying a healthy person doesn't need a doctor."

Likewise, a sick person only knows he's sick because of the symptoms he has. In our reality, those symptoms are the Law that God put into our hearts before our birth so we would be drawn to Him.

--------

The point is we don't choose because we'd never choose. We are slaves to sin. Children of wrath.

God chose us. All of us. That choice was made before our birth. Salvation is monergistic. We are saved because of God alone. In a legal sense (relating to Scripture), we are before the judge, and clearly guilty and yet the judge says Jesus will take our punishment. Do you claim you made that choice? Of course not. However, if you do stand up and say, No I don't want him to take my punishment, I'll take it myself, then you've actually made a choice.

This is why we should say our salvation is only the work of God, yet our damnation is entirely our choice.

Sorry to be harsh with you earlier, but we have to get away from this notion that we choose our salvation. We don't.

---

I am going to respond since this was directed to me. I have stated I am a synergist, not a monergist. We disagree which is okay with me.

You basically called me a proponent of pelagianism which I vehemently disagree with. You also mischaracterized what pelagianism is by definition. My link shows this.

Synergism is not pelagianism.

Have a great Saturday!

---

I have not mischaracterized pelagianism.

Your initial statement was incorrect and it was challenged. That you changed your wording is good. But the correction was necessary.

---

Where was I incorrect? And where did I change it? And read how you described pelagianism. Read my link and compare. Your description is completely different than my link.

I just re read through the thread and totally disagree with your assessment. Back to football.

Agilaw said:

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You obviously didn't read my post or you are wanting to stir something up that isn't there. I believe I said it was a foolish example?! And I stand by it. What is such a person going around looking for in that example?

---

I apologize. Definitely not trying to stir things up. I should have been more clear that it was Spurgeon's example that you called foolish. I do disagree with that. Spurgeon emphasizes that we have no idea who the elect are among unbelievers. And so we are to spread the word indiscriminately knowing that His sheep hear His voice. I believe this to be a good and wise practice.

Apologies again for the offense.

Thanks for the clarification. I can't see how you and other reformers don't see the futility in your statement "we have no idea who are the elect among unbelievers, so we spread the word indiscriminately". Under the reformed theology, there is no need to spread the word because a person is already saved/believers/elect or never will be. There is no urgency for others to believe, because if they aren't already the elect, they have no choice and can't choose Jesus even if they desperately want to.
It is also the reason reformed groups are often very tight knit and homogeneous. They tend to turn inwards and thrive on discussions of how to get a deeper and better understanding of their beliefs. It often causes them to look down on others as not being enlightened or up to their level. It also results in most not having a deep passion and urgency to see others be saved. Understandably so, because others can't be saved. They either already are or never will be. Sorry it may sound harsh, but sometimes it has to be blunt.

I think you're fair in what you're saying. I've experienced a lot of churches, only 1 reformed Baptist church .

It seems as if there's a really hard balance to achieve as far as being a church that is facilitating deep discipleship within its members and families and also sharing the gospel to unbelievers and making that an important part of their mission.

Coming from my pre-reformed days, I think it most definitely could be a bigger area of emphasis for us. On the flip side, I've experienced very seeker friendly churches where everything is catered to that person coming in who is not part of Gods family.

One of the biggest points of emphasis in our church is the idea that Sunday is for the edification of the saints, so the liturgy is not going to bend to accommodate non-believers. We will welcome anyone 100%. Our pastors and elders expect us to be the beautiful feet sharing the gospel every chance that presents itself, not just inviting people to Sunday service so the pastor can have a moment with them.

All that being said, your point is valid and noted!

dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

---

To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.

---

So, what forms our desires?

---

I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like.

---

This is pretty well the definition of pelagianism though?

---

Not as I understand it. But I could be wrong.

Pelagianism believes that original sin did not leave us with a sin nature. And that we obtained salvation by our works. It was our responsibility, not God's grace.

I believe original sin gave us a sin nature that can only be reconciled by God's grace through our faith which is a conscious decision we make via our free will. At that point, we are filled with the Holy Spirit and are born again. Our hearts are changed and we work together with the Holy Spirit to become more Christ like.

Works and fruits are a natural by product of this transformation. But we are not saved by our works. We are saved by grace and putting our faith in Jesus.

This may be a useful analogy.

A father has five children. They venture into a lake and are drowning. He has five life preservers and the ability to save them all.

In Calvinist/Reformed theology, the father (God), would choose to only save two and pass the other three by, letting them drown. And somehow that is to the father's glory.

In Arminian/all other theology, the father throws life preservers to all five and they choose whether to use them or not. The father is still sovereign but has a completely different character than the first example. And I believe that character is much more like the character revealed by Jesus.

We are so blessed to have God reveal His character through the Incarnation.

---

Sort of.

Pelagianism essentially argued that Adams fall into sin affected us in some capacity, but it did not affect our will in the sense that we could choose to not sin.

Said differently, Pelagius believed we could, of our own free will chose to do good or right.

That's where your statement gets dangerously close to his.

You said "I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like."

This reads as we, of our own free nature, outside of God, choose Him, and then at that point the Holy Spirit comes into us. This presupposes some sort of goodness outside of God that we have that allows us to make right decision on our own.

Pelagius probably would have agreed with you.

---

I posted a link describing pelagianism. From my reading, it is not what you say it is. It specifically says he did not believe in a sin nature. It said he believed we could obtain our salvation through works.

I vehemently disagree with both of those.

I specifically stated we are saved by grace through our faith. All I said is that we have free will to accept or reject the Gospel. And then we are transformed by the Holy Spirit, born again.

I guess you think it is pelagianism if I say humans make a choice. Like that is a work. From my reading, that is nothing like pelagianism.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with you. Or maybe I am not communicating well.

---

What you've tried to describe later is very different than what you said earlier. That's a good thing.

Man doesn't choose God. Man only rejects God.

Put it this way since you're a doctor.

How often does someone come in who has no symptoms come to you and say, "I'm very sick, and I need you to heal me?"Never. Augustine responded to Pelagius saying a healthy person doesn't need a doctor."

Likewise, a sick person only knows he's sick because of the symptoms he has. In our reality, those symptoms are the Law that God put into our hearts before our birth so we would be drawn to Him.

--------

The point is we don't choose because we'd never choose. We are slaves to sin. Children of wrath.

God chose us. All of us. That choice was made before our birth. Salvation is monergistic. We are saved because of God alone. In a legal sense (relating to Scripture), we are before the judge, and clearly guilty and yet the judge says Jesus will take our punishment. Do you claim you made that choice? Of course not. However, if you do stand up and say, No I don't want him to take my punishment, I'll take it myself, then you've actually made a choice.

This is why we should say our salvation is only the work of God, yet our damnation is entirely our choice.

Sorry to be harsh with you earlier, but we have to get away from this notion that we choose our salvation. We don't.

---

I am going to respond since this was directed to me. I have stated I am a synergist, not a monergist. We disagree which is okay with me.

You basically called me a proponent of pelagianism which I vehemently disagree with. You also mischaracterized what pelagianism is by definition. My link shows this.

Synergism is not pelagianism.

Have a great Saturday!

---

I have not mischaracterized pelagianism.

Your initial statement was incorrect and it was challenged. That you changed your wording is good. But the correction was necessary.

---

Where was I incorrect? And where did I change it? And read how you described pelagianism. Read my link and compare. Your description is completely different than my link.

I just re read through the thread and totally disagree with your assessment. Back to football.

---

Have you actually read Augustine and how he responds to Pelagius or are you relying on secondary sources?

Pelagius didn't just offer up wild theories. He claimed that we all needed God's grace too. He used the same words.

But what separated Pelagius was he believed we had the ability to freely choose right/wrong, to sin or not. That no man had truly been sinless was not relevant to Pelagius (or Augustine for that matter), but it was that we did have a choice that matters.

So when you say "I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like," you're really siding with Pelagius, not Augustine. The semi-pelagians would also go down this line of reasoning that man has some natural ability to take the first step (John Cassian being the leader of this though).

Man in his fallen state never chooses God. How can we? To truly hold to original sin is to understand that your nature is entirely sinful. That it is only because of what God has done for you, through preaching, through his Holy Spirit, through His Word that you realize salvation is already yours when you stop resisting.

Amazing to consider God knew us before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

We still have the responsibility of faith.

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

"God has expressed His sovereigntyHe chose us before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)and He places the responsibility of faith upon the individual (Ephesians 2:8). Both the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of humanity are evident in Paul's letter to the Ephesians and in his explanation of how we came to be so greatly blessed."

God is sovereign over you. His will be done.

AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

---

To summarize my view, the thing that merits salvation is having the desire to act like Christ and then having the courage and conviction to actually do that to the best of your ability.

---

So, what forms our desires?

---

I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like.

---

This is pretty well the definition of pelagianism though?

---

Not as I understand it. But I could be wrong.

Pelagianism believes that original sin did not leave us with a sin nature. And that we obtained salvation by our works. It was our responsibility, not God's grace.

I believe original sin gave us a sin nature that can only be reconciled by God's grace through our faith which is a conscious decision we make via our free will. At that point, we are filled with the Holy Spirit and are born again. Our hearts are changed and we work together with the Holy Spirit to become more Christ like.

Works and fruits are a natural by product of this transformation. But we are not saved by our works. We are saved by grace and putting our faith in Jesus.

This may be a useful analogy.

A father has five children. They venture into a lake and are drowning. He has five life preservers and the ability to save them all.

In Calvinist/Reformed theology, the father (God), would choose to only save two and pass the other three by, letting them drown. And somehow that is to the father's glory.

In Arminian/all other theology, the father throws life preservers to all five and they choose whether to use them or not. The father is still sovereign but has a completely different character than the first example. And I believe that character is much more like the character revealed by Jesus.

We are so blessed to have God reveal His character through the Incarnation.

---

Sort of.

Pelagianism essentially argued that Adams fall into sin affected us in some capacity, but it did not affect our will in the sense that we could choose to not sin.

Said differently, Pelagius believed we could, of our own free will chose to do good or right.

That's where your statement gets dangerously close to his.

You said "I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like."

This reads as we, of our own free nature, outside of God, choose Him, and then at that point the Holy Spirit comes into us. This presupposes some sort of goodness outside of God that we have that allows us to make right decision on our own.

Pelagius probably would have agreed with you.

---

I posted a link describing pelagianism. From my reading, it is not what you say it is. It specifically says he did not believe in a sin nature. It said he believed we could obtain our salvation through works.

I vehemently disagree with both of those.

I specifically stated we are saved by grace through our faith. All I said is that we have free will to accept or reject the Gospel. And then we are transformed by the Holy Spirit, born again.

I guess you think it is pelagianism if I say humans make a choice. Like that is a work. From my reading, that is nothing like pelagianism.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with you. Or maybe I am not communicating well.

---

What you've tried to describe later is very different than what you said earlier. That's a good thing.

Man doesn't choose God. Man only rejects God.

Put it this way since you're a doctor.

How often does someone come in who has no symptoms come to you and say, "I'm very sick, and I need you to heal me?"Never. Augustine responded to Pelagius saying a healthy person doesn't need a doctor."

Likewise, a sick person only knows he's sick because of the symptoms he has. In our reality, those symptoms are the Law that God put into our hearts before our birth so we would be drawn to Him.

--------

The point is we don't choose because we'd never choose. We are slaves to sin. Children of wrath.

God chose us. All of us. That choice was made before our birth. Salvation is monergistic. We are saved because of God alone. In a legal sense (relating to Scripture), we are before the judge, and clearly guilty and yet the judge says Jesus will take our punishment. Do you claim you made that choice? Of course not. However, if you do stand up and say, No I don't want him to take my punishment, I'll take it myself, then you've actually made a choice.

This is why we should say our salvation is only the work of God, yet our damnation is entirely our choice.

Sorry to be harsh with you earlier, but we have to get away from this notion that we choose our salvation. We don't.

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I am going to respond since this was directed to me. I have stated I am a synergist, not a monergist. We disagree which is okay with me.

You basically called me a proponent of pelagianism which I vehemently disagree with. You also mischaracterized what pelagianism is by definition. My link shows this.

Synergism is not pelagianism.

Have a great Saturday!

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I have not mischaracterized pelagianism.

Your initial statement was incorrect and it was challenged. That you changed your wording is good. But the correction was necessary.

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Where was I incorrect? And where did I change it? And read how you described pelagianism. Read my link and compare. Your description is completely different than my link.

I just re read through the thread and totally disagree with your assessment. Back to football.

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Have you actually read Augustine and how he responds to Pelagius or are you relying on secondary sources?

Pelagius didn't just offer up wild theories. He claimed that we all needed God's grace too. He used the same words.

But what separated Pelagius was he believed we had the ability to freely choose right/wrong, to sin or not. That no man had truly been sinless was not relevant to Pelagius (or Augustine for that matter), but it was that we did have a choice that matters.

So when you say "I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like," you're really siding with Pelagius, not Augustine. The semi-pelagians would also go down this line of reasoning that man has some natural ability to take the first step (John Cassian being the leader of this though).

Man in his fallen state never chooses God. How can we? To truly hold to original sin is to understand that your nature is entirely sinful. That it is only because of what God has done for you, through preaching, through his Holy Spirit, through His Word that you realize salvation is already yours when you stop resisting.

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Augustine was brilliant. I am not a monergist like him or you. I am synergistic. I do not see how Pelagius enters into this discussion but it is always used by monergists.

A lot of theologians disagreed with Augustine on double pre destination and his views on monergism.

Synergism does not equal pelagianism. You obviously did not read the link I posted.

https://westernthm.wordpress.com/2010/11/20/synergism-is-not-semi-pelagianism/

And brother when the dust clears, we are all on the same side.

I do not believe we can choose right or wrong without being regenerated. I do not believe a loving God whose character is revealed by Jesus limits His atonement. Or pre ordains people he created to eternal torment which is what "passing over" is.

And do you believe in double pre destination?

Thanks

If we can chose our own salvation, who would get the glory?

aggiedata said:

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If we can chose our own salvation, who would get the glory?

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God.

Does God get the glory if He passes over people He created and therefore condemns to eternal torment? Think about what the character of that God would be. Sounds like Molech.

Would you choose one of your kids and pass over the others and allow them to be tormented eternally?

What would you think about a father who did that? A lot worse than a dead beat dad in my opinion. Eternal torment.

And read the attributes I posted about God. Tell me how that aligns with Calvinism/Reformed theology.

aggiedata said:

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If we can chose our own salvation, who would get the glory?

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Depends? Did we find God on our own accord? Then it would be us.

If we heard about God from one of His preachers and were convicted about His reality as truth and chose to follow Him, then it's Him.

Think about the contrast between the apostles and the rich man who walked away. When the rich man walks away, why doesn't Jesus say something along the lines of "the Father didn't pick him". Or when He rebukes the Pharisees, why does He criticize them for having hardened hearts as if they were choosing their hardened stance when God was doing 100% of the hardening?

Would it wreck your view of God's sovereignty if He draws all people to Him and, as in the garden , let's them make a decision to follow/obey Him or not?

aggiedata said:

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Amazing to consider God knew us before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

We still have the responsibility of faith.

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

"God has expressed His sovereigntyHe chose us before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)and He places the responsibility of faith upon the individual (Ephesians 2:8). Both the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of humanity are evident in Paul's letter to the Ephesians and in his explanation of how we came to be so greatly blessed."

God is sovereign over you. His will be done.

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Completely agree. Does Scripture state that God desires all men to be saved? Are all men saved?

Nobody is denying the sovereignty of God. It is the character of God that is the question.

I found this interesting
https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-does-the-bible-really-say-about-predestination.html

Agilaw said:

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Would it wreck your view of God's sovereignty if He draws all people to Him and, as in the garden , let's them make a decision to follow/obey Him or not?

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This is irrelevant. Only view that matters is that which is presented in the Bible.

Quote:

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Nobody is denying the sovereignty of God. It is the character of God that is the question.

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But if God isn't sovereign over salvation, his sovereignty is limited. Ultimately man's choice will dictate his destiny.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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Nobody is denying the sovereignty of God. It is the character of God that is the question.

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But if God isn't sovereign over salvation, his sovereignty is limited. Ultimately man's choice will dictate his destiny.

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If you get the time, please read the linked article. Thanks my friend.

That is pretty much a non-answer. Why is it so hard to give a direct answer?

Quote:

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Have you actually read Augustine and how he responds to Pelagius or are you relying on secondary sources?

Pelagius didn't just offer up wild theories. He claimed that we all needed God's grace too. He used the same words.

But what separated Pelagius was he believed we had the ability to freely choose right/wrong, to sin or not. That no man had truly been sinless was not relevant to Pelagius (or Augustine for that matter), but it was that we did have a choice that matters.

So when you say "I believe when we choose Jesus as our Savior we are filled with the Holy Spirit and want to be Christ like," you're really siding with Pelagius, not Augustine. The semi-pelagians would also go down this line of reasoning that man has some natural ability to take the first step (John Cassian being the leader of this though).

Man in his fallen state never chooses God. How can we? To truly hold to original sin is to understand that your nature is entirely sinful. That it is only because of what God has done for you, through preaching, through his Holy Spirit, through His Word that you realize salvation is already yours when you stop resisting.

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What did Pelagius and Augustine respectively teach about a person's ability to resist that initial pull of the person's spirit and soul through God's Holy Spirit and Word?

Nothing God does will wreck my view of Him

10andBOUNCE said:

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Agilaw said:

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Would it wreck your view of God's sovereignty if He draws all people to Him and, as in the garden , let's them make a decision to follow/obey Him or not?

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This is irrelevant. Only view that matters is that which is presented in the Bible.

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Repetitive but how do you reconcile the Scripture that clearly stated God desires to save all men?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Quote:

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Nobody is denying the sovereignty of God. It is the character of God that is the question.

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But if God isn't sovereign over salvation, his sovereignty is limited. Ultimately man's choice will dictate his destiny.

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Can God be completely sovereign, and in His all powerful sovereignty, allow us the choice? I've never understood why all powerful means that He must flex 100% of that power in 100% of creation 100% of the time. Why does Him allowing us to do something reduce His power?

For example, I'm in 100% control of the family finances. Wife hates dealing with money, so it's completely up to me. If I let her or the kids have a certain amount of money to do with as they want, that doesn't mean I'm not in control. I've simply given them a latitude that I'm comfortable with giving them.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Agilaw said:

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Would it wreck your view of God's sovereignty if He draws all people to Him and, as in the garden , let's them make a decision to follow/obey Him or not?

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This is irrelevant. Only view that matters is that which is presented in the Bible.

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Repetitive but how do you reconcile the Scripture that clearly stated God desires to save all men?

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As I mentioned before, I think there is some language/translation type of things at play possibly when we try to understand the desires and wills of God. The fact that God desires all to be saved and the fact that he does not will that or decree that, is something that will likely be in some amount of tension for me until I die.

How do you reconcile that Scripture clearly states that God chooses before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4)?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Nothing God does will wreck my view of Him

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Agree. And God can do what He wants. He revealed His character with the Incarnation, Jesus. I do not believe that revealed character would not give my kid at salvation and would condemn my child to eternal torment. With them having no choice.

So I believe God is totally sovereign but His character is not that of double predestination.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Agilaw said:

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Would it wreck your view of God's sovereignty if He draws all people to Him and, as in the garden , let's them make a decision to follow/obey Him or not?

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This is irrelevant. Only view that matters is that which is presented in the Bible.

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Repetitive but how do you reconcile the Scripture that clearly stated God desires to save all men?

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As I mentioned before, I think there is some language/translation type of things at play possibly when we try to understand the desires and wills of God. The fact that God desires all to be saved and the fact that he does not will that or decree that, is something that will likely be in some amount of tension for me until I die.

How do you reconcile that Scripture clearly states that God chooses before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4)?

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Depends on how "us" is translated. And if it is inclusive or exclusive. To me, it is not near as definitive as God desires ALL men to be saved. And the use of the word desires is so compelling. Like He loves us so much He longs to save us.

Quote:

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Can God be completely sovereign, and in His all powerful sovereignty, allow us the choice? I've never understood why all powerful means that He must flex 100% of that power in 100% of creation 100% of the time. Why does Him allowing us to do something reduce His power?

For example, I'm in 100% control of the family finances. Wife hates dealing with money, so it's completely up to me. If I let her or the kids have a certain amount of money to do with as they want, that doesn't mean I'm not in control. I've simply given them a latitude that I'm comfortable with giving them.

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No - the only acceptable alternatives are one extreme position or the other!

/s

It strikes me that the extreme Calvinists, in their efforts to ascribe infinite power to God, end up putting God in a box of their own creation by limiting what God can do regarding free will.

Jabin said:

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Quote:

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Can God be completely sovereign, and in His all powerful sovereignty, allow us the choice? I've never understood why all powerful means that He must flex 100% of that power in 100% of creation 100% of the time. Why does Him allowing us to do something reduce His power?

For example, I'm in 100% control of the family finances. Wife hates dealing with money, so it's completely up to me. If I let her or the kids have a certain amount of money to do with as they want, that doesn't mean I'm not in control. I've simply given them a latitude that I'm comfortable with giving them.

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No - the only acceptable alternatives are one extreme position or the other!

/s

It strikes me that the extreme Calvinists, in their efforts to ascribe infinite power to God, end up putting God in a box of their own creation by limiting what God can do regarding free will.

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Agree.

I absolutely try not to force God into a box. I think we all do at times, and we often live in echo chambers, only searching out Bible teachers that affirm our personal views and opinions.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I absolutely try not to force God into a box. I think we all do at times, and we often live in echo chambers, only searching out Bible teachers that affirm our personal views and opinions.

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Yet you do force God into a box. Your radical interpretation of predestination makes meaningless all of the Biblical scriptures ordering us to believe, to have faith, etc. Although the Bible nowhere uses the term "free will", it is explicit throughout. You deny that God could both predestine and allow free will, which is a limit that you impose on God.

I have consistently said there is tension throughout the Bible, but my understanding is that God's sovereign and electing grace stands above it all.

How do you reconcile Ephesians 1:4? Seems clear cut to me.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I have consistently said there is tension throughout the Bible, but my understanding is that God's sovereign and electing grace stands above it all.

How do you reconcile Ephesians 1:4? Seems clear cut to me.

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Define "us".

And 1 Timothy 2 3-4 seems much more clear cut to me. Maybe our brains are wired differently.

There is tension in some of the scriptures as we are limited in our understanding since we are human, but there is no confusion or randomness. Scene in Acts 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." What was happening here - was God's sovreignty working through free men at Calvary?

In Paul's introduction, he is addressing "the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus."

I guess that would be my answer of who "us" is.