Agilaw said:

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I lean heavily to Derm's views. I have several family members that were free will, joined a Reformed fellowship, and are now Reformed. As Derm points out, character of God is quite different between the two views.

Some questions I like to pose to Reformed friends: Are all of your close family members "chosen"?
I'm not sure. I have several close family members who aren't yet believers. Don't you really mean they haven't yet discovered that they are actually already saved?

Do you believe in the narrow way? If so, what is that teaching and can a person choose to walk the narrow way/path/gate?
I don't know what you are asking here exactly. Matthew 7 - enter through the narrow gate (is He telling the people to do something they can't really do because they aren't chosen? Along the lines of being told to repent when you can't really repent because you haven't been chosen?


If you were to have a world map, plot out where you think most of the "chosen" currently are (numbers wise) - what nations, etc.? What nations have the fewest "chosen"? Did some countries win the eternal lottery?
God uses certain means to bring about salvation, primarily the preaching of the word. No need for that to happen as it has no effect on the hearer as the hearer can't take action - they are already saved. So I'd say most of the "chosen" are going to be found in areas where the gospel is widely preached. I agree with you on this one - salvations seem to happen where the Gospel is being preached - because people can choose to respond to the Gospel message. I also believe God can and does intervene in peoples lives apart from the preaching of the word. As an example, there are countless stories of Muslim conversions due to visions of Jesus. Very few individuals in those countries have won the chosen lottery don't you think? I don't know how reliable these accounts are, but if true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Have you read the whole Bible through multiple times? If so, and you had nobody to teach you the idea of reformed theology/chosen, would you land on a theology that looked anything like reformed theology?
My soteriology shifted from semi-pelagian/arminian towards reformed while I was reading through the Bible for the first time. The whole of the scriptures scream a God who wants people to be saved and be holy - not you are so lucky that I chose you and I have not chose others and condemned them to an eternity apart from Me and there is nothing you or they can do about it.

Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?
I'm fairly ignorant on church history, but I think Augustine was one of the earliest theologians to espouse reformed views in the 4th-5th century. I am confident Paul would fall in the reformed camp.

Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?
John 6 was pretty convincing to me. I won't repost Derm's responses to this one.

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These are some pretty bad mischaracterizations of reformed theology. If your family members go to a church that teaches those things you are right to be concerned.

Unfortunately just with any group or sect, there are those that can mischaracterize or misrepresent the truth or message. Reformed is no different in that regard unfortunately.

Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that God desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curious.

Agilaw said:

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I'll give you a real life example I've come across regarding a Reformed staff member at a fairly large local congregation. This staff member's wife was asked how her daughter was doing in college. The mom mentioned that her daughter was having real issues with their Reformed teachings and was questioning them while at college. The mom then said she had walked away from the faith. The response was (not from me but another person), I'm so sorry, I will be really praying for her. The Reformed mom's response to that - "you don't need to do that, we just have to accept that she isn't one of the chosen!!!" I know you will say that isn't typical, etc., but it gets into the mindset of Reformed theology - salvation is set, fixed, predetermined, irresistible, you have no power to respond to a calling, you can't choose Jesus's offer of salvation, you can't choose to walk the narrow path....

On another note, what if you are the only member of your family that is of the elect and chosen and you get to know this for all the years you are here on earth living with your wife, your family, raising your children, etc. Your thoughts on God now that you know your wife, family, children are living a hopeless existence and there is noting you can do about it?

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That's terrible. I'm thankful I haven't come across that attitude in my church.

As to your question, I hope I would do the same as I do regarding the family members I do have who aren't saved. I definitely wouldn't see them as a hopeless existence. I would pray that God would save them. That I might be the means of which He brings them to Himself. I've been learning a little about covenant membership in Presbyterian reformed camps. It has been an encouragement to me.

dermdoc said:

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Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that Hod desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curoois.

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Yes, obviously.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Agilaw said:

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Can you point to anything specific in the teachings of Jesus that would lead you to a reformed theology?

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If free will is such a wonderful and loving thing from God, why didn't Jesus just post an ad in Capernaum with those tear away tabs at the bottom for people to come and hear him speak and see if they'd like to be his disciples? No, Jesus chose every single one of his 12 with a purpose and his calling was irresistible. No different than Paul on the road to Damascus.

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Several issues with Reformed theology:

1. So Adam and Eve were created to sin, right? If God only saves who He wants to save, then some number of people must be in the not saved camp. In order to create a not saved camp, God has to let sin into the world. But since God is in total control here, He has to actively introduce the sin and cause Adam and Eve to fall into it. I don't see this as biblical at all, and I have yet to hear a good reformed argument for how none of us can resist God's will but somehow Adam and Eve managed it. So either God WANTED sin and eternal torment or He did not.

2. Why only Paul? There were plenty of Jesus haters among the Jews. Did God not want them for some reason? Or was Paul picked because God knew he would listen? And was His call irresistible? Was He just wasting His breath on those that didn't listen for fun?

3. Why does the idea that we cooperate with God and choose to follow Him cut against His sovereignty? Looping this back into number 1, either Adam and Eve were capable of overcoming His sovereignty or He actively made them bring sin into the world. Or option 3: He let them fall

4. If you know there are people who have lived as Christians for 20, 30, 40+ years, certain they were part of the elect, and then fall away, what gives you the confidence that you are truly part of the elect? Is it possible you are currently deluded into believing you are chosen only to find out 20 years from now you were wrong? If that can't happen to you, why not?

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Agilaw said:

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Do you know when reformed theology actually became a thing? Is it a quite current theology or does it go back thousands of years?

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From the reformed perspective, we believe these teachings date back to the very beginning of Biblical history through Jesus and then the Apostles. This wasn't invented by Augustine and acted on by Luther and codified by Calvin.

Again, I am sure we disagree with that ability to trace the doctrines of grace back that far, but this is what we hold to be true.

Probably why I am not a huge fan of being called a "Calvinist" - he didn't invent the doctrine. It has always been there.

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Why do/did the vast majority of church fathers and past/present theologians disagree the theology that Calvin "codified"?

Are they heretics? Are they not of the elect? And if they are of the elect l why do they believe differently? Why do you need preaching of the Word if there is unconditional election? It has already been divinely decided, correct?

Because this is a huge deal.

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Define vast majority.

And why does majority really have to do with it? The majority of people on this planet don't profess to be Christian. Since the majority is anti Christian is that not proof that we have it all wrong? Majority rules?
Again...
John 6:64-66
"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.


The puritans were largely reformed as they came to the new world. Many of the ivy league schools we know today all started as seminaries and to my knowledge leaned reformed (crazy to even consider these modern day ivy league schools were completely different upon inception).

Liberalism within the church eventually crept in and with the idea of salvation being more inclusive than what the reformed view speaks to with the hints of more than one way to God (see latest Pope incident) and that truth was not REALLY truth.

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https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2022/02/calvinism-tiny-minority-historically-demographically.html
I can not find the percentage of theologians but I would assume these Christians are being taught by non Calvinist pastors.
Catholics and Orthodox comprise the majority of Christians and they do not believe in double pre destination.
Unless you do not think they are "real" Christians then that is a large swath.
And the majority of theologians have looked at the same passages you post and disagree with the Reformed interpretation.
And to my knowledge, Augustine was in the minority on double predestination.
But you are correct in that minority/majority does not mean correct or incorrect.
I do not believe Origen, St. Gregory, and many others were "liberals". They just read and interpreted Scripture differently than Augustine.

10andBOUNCE said:

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What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

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Just a reminder this was the initial question, which I have not really gotten any response to.

I am fine answering questions about my beliefs, but seems only fair everyone to play ball.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that Hod desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curoois.

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Yes, obviously.

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Then why does He not if He is sovereign in salvation? If you believe what you posted, then you either have to be a universalist or believe humans have free will and can choose or reject God, correct?

10andBOUNCE said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

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Just a reminder this was the initial question, which I have not really gotten any response to.

I am fine answering questions about my beliefs, but seems only fair everyone to play ball.

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I answered it. I was given free will as is every human. I chose to accept Christ just like everyone has the choice to.

This to me is consistent with the entirety of Scripture.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Carrying this over from another thread since I am genuinely curious the position that many (if not most Christians) hold. As some know, I hold the Augustinian/Reformed view of God's monergistic role in salvation. I am just trying to understand the other side of the coin, in good faith

What I am curious about is the synergistic, semi Pelagian view that most Christians hold. What is it that differentiates you from your peers with a similar living environment which allowed you to choose within your own free will to accept God's gift of salvation? Are you smarter? Are your parents smarter? Did you hear a better gospel presentation that someone else?

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To address your second paragraph: semi-pelagian isn't even close. If you know what plagiarism is, you know this isn't accurate.

It's not that believers with free will are "better" or "earned" anything. It's possible that we were raised better, heard a better gospel pitch or happened to do better research, but ultimately God calls to all people. What differentiates a believer from a non is the willingness to humble oneself to His authority.

When talking with most atheists/agnostics, it's almost never the factual evidence for or against God that trips them up. Ultimately it's the moral absolutes that one must obey upon acknowledging His existence. For most non-believers, it's not the idea of a creator that bothers them. It's the reality that a creator means order and they may not agree with the rules He set in place.

The rich man comes to Jesus and asks what He must do to get into Heaven. Jesus tells him. The man walks away sad. In our theology, that man made a choice. In reformed theology, that man actively came and asked what he could do to go to Heaven and God left him out in the cold.

The question is why you chose and others did not, given similar circumstances.

dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that Hod desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curoois.

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Yes, obviously.

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Then why does He not if He is sovereign in salvation? If you believe what you posted, then you either have to be a universalist or believe humans have free will and can choose or reject God, correct?

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https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/if-god-desires-all-to-be-saved-why-arent-they

"After this many of his disciples turned their backs on him and no longer walked with him."

To me this confirms their free will to reject the Gospel.

dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that Hod desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curoois.

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Yes, obviously.

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Then why does He not if He is sovereign in salvation? If you believe what you posted, then you either have to be a universalist or believe humans have free will and can choose or reject God, correct?

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If God desires all to be saved but all are not saved, God ultimately does not get what he wants. Seems like a problem also.

This is likely the most tension a reformed believer will face; some explain it as the "two wills of God" and others explain the different interpretable meanings of desire and will. I am not smart enough to entirely reconcile it all myself, but scripture in my mind is much more focused on the idea of God's elect and chosen versus everyone having the ability to choose for themselves. Augustine would say that not a single person could himself choose God in his depraved and fallen state.

Just like the valley of dry bones, God needed to breathe life back into the bones to make them live again. We are dead to sin and condemned to separation from God, unless He makes us alive again.

Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that Hod desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curoois.

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Yes, obviously.

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Then why does He not if He is sovereign in salvation? If you believe what you posted, then you either have to be a universalist or believe humans have free will and can choose or reject God, correct?

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https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/if-god-desires-all-to-be-saved-why-arent-they

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I read that and have read it before. To me, it dodges the central issue of God's character. And I always get the feeling Piper is trying to make Scripture fit his theology rather than letting Scripture determine his theology.

It I do not agree with Piper's theology. Which to me is fine.

Reformed/Calvinists do not agree with Arminian theology which is fine.

The problem becomes when either theological camp believes that anyone who does not agree with them is not a "real" Christian and are not saved.

Maybe it is just my experience but I get that a lot more from the Reformed/Calvinist camp than the Arminian/all others camp.

I firmly believe all that call on the name of the Lord will be saved. And that all Christians, whatever their theology except for the. basic Gospel, will be saved.

I have not experienced that same belief in my interactions with Reformed/Calvinists.

But that is just my personal experiences.

My observation of Christianity is that if you were not born into a Christian household and raised to be a Christian, you will not choose to be a Christian. Those people do exist but are low single digit % in my experience. That is what predestination looks like in practice.

If you are born into a single parent, drug riddled, food stamp, white trash home, I would say that 99% of the time you will not find Christ. How is that anything other than predestination? If you were like me and hauled to church 3 times a week your odds of finding Christ are vastly improved. I had nothing to do with where I was born. That is how predestination works. I'd say life is about 90% predestination and 10% free will. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

I've observed in Bible class that free will gets lots of air time even though those 2 words never appear in the Bible. I've never seen anyone try to work through the logic of the multiple verses that seem to imply differently. The root cause of the confusion is our understanding of hell. If hell is eternal torment, then you have no choice but to ignore what you see in the world and believe in free will.

If hell is what Matt 10:28 states, the place where the body and soul are destroyed, that changes everything. God gives everyone a life to live. If you choose to believe, you have eternal life. If you choose not to believe, either because you never had a chance or because you turned away, then this life is all you get and you are destroyed in hell. God is still a loving God and your logic can explain all the verses.

PS Somehow Paul was able to fully explain all the intricacies of Christianity to the gentiles in Rome without a single mention of hell.

Jack Boyett said:

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My observation of Christianity is that if you were not born into a Christian household and raised to be a Christian, you will not choose to be a Christian. Those people do exist but are low single digit % in my experience. That is what predestination looks like in practice.

If you are born into a single parent, drug riddled, food stamp, white trash home, I would say that 99% of the time you will not find Christ. How is that anything other than predestination? If you were like me and hauled to church 3 times a week your odds of finding Christ are vastly improved. I had nothing to do with where I was born. That is how predestination works. I'd say life is about 90% predestination and 10% free will. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

I've observed in Bible class that free will gets lots of air time even though those 2 words never appear in the Bible. I've never seen anyone try to work through the logic of the multiple verses that seem to imply differently. The root cause of the confusion is our understanding of hell. If hell is eternal torment, then you have no choice but to ignore what you see in the world and believe in free will.

If hell is what Matt 10:28 states, the place where the body and soul are destroyed, that changes everything. God gives everyone a life to live. If you choose to believe, you have eternal life. If you choose not to believe, either because you never had a chance or because you turned away, then this life is all you get and you are destroyed in hell. God is still a loving God and your logic can explain all the verses.

PS Somehow Paul was able to fully explain all the intricacies of Christianity to the gentiles in Rome without a single mention of hell.

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Yep. You would think that that would have been an emphasis like it often is (I believe erroneously ) in modern evangelism. I mean eternal torment is a huge deal. And Paul never mentioned it.

Augustine was a monumental intellect and a church father. He was not the only intellect or only church father. This is why we use the body of work and the Church itself to safeguard the faith. For example, Justin Martyr wrote 200 years before him and we can find him teaching something very contrary to reformed theology. Augustine has other writings that seem to conflict with his double predestination view.

As for your second paragraph, this goes right back to my Adam and Eve question from earlier. If God desires all be saved, but does not save them all, he is either allowing humans to counteract His desires OR He is semi-schizophrenic, wanting something that He isn't willing to do. This line of reasoning alone is enough for me to abandon the entire idea.

There is a distant 3rd option: God wants to save everyone but isn't capable of doing it. I think we can all toss that one out.

To put a bow on the idea of Augustinian double predestination and how that has fleshed itself out in the history of the church: the double predestination idea is correct in so much that God knows what path we are all going to choose. He knows where we will end up. However, we can not say that He is actively refusing to offer the saving grace needed for any individual to avoid hell.

The Banned said:

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Augustine was a monumental intellect and a church father. He was not the only intellect or only church father. This is why we use the body of work and the Church itself to safeguard the faith. For example, Justin Martyr wrote 200 years before him and we can find him teaching something very contrary to reformed theology. Augustine has other writings that seem to conflict with his double predestination view.

As for your second paragraph, this goes right back to my Adam and Eve question from earlier. If God desires all be saved, but does not save them all, he is either allowing humans to counteract His desires OR He is semi-schizophrenic, wanting something that He isn't willing to do. This line of reasoning alone is enough for me to abandon the entire idea.

There is a distant 3rd option: God wants to save everyone but isn't capable of doing it. I think we can all toss that one out.

To put a bow on the idea of Augustinian double predestination and how that has fleshed itself out in the history of the church: the double predestination idea is correct in so much that God knows what path we are all going to choose. He knows where we will end up. However, we can not say that He is actively refusing to offer the saving grace needed for any individual to avoid hell.

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Agree. Sometimes it is like Christians believe Augustine's views are the predominant views of the church fathers. It definitely was not.

Point of information: Paul never says the word hell, but does mention damnation and eternal condemnation.

Also, the sum of Paul's teachings are not in the Bible. It's clear from his writings he did extensive oral teaching to the Gentiles. We can not say how much teaching on hell he did or didn't do.

Lastly, Jesus talks about hell a lot and we all know how that ranking system works.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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Mostly Peaceful said:

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dermdoc said:

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Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that Hod desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curoois.

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Yes, obviously.

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Then why does He not if He is sovereign in salvation? If you believe what you posted, then you either have to be a universalist or believe humans have free will and can choose or reject God, correct?

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If God desires all to be saved but all are not saved, God ultimately does not get what he wants. Seems like a problem also.

This is likely the most tension a reformed believer will face; some explain it as the "two wills of God" and others explain the different interpretable meanings of desire and will. I am not smart enough to entirely reconcile it all myself, but scripture in my mind is much more focused on the idea of God's elect and chosen versus everyone having the ability to choose for themselves. Augustine would say that not a single person could himself choose God in his depraved and fallen state.

Just like the valley of dry bones, God needed to breathe life back into the bones to make them live again. We are dead to sin and condemned to separation from God, unless He makes us alive again.

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And when I read the same Scripture you do, election to me takes on an entirely different meaning. And I do not believe election and pre destination are the dominant them of the entirety of Scripture.

I appreciate the back and forth from all.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I appreciate the back and forth from all.

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Agree. And it shows how serious, God loving, Spirit filled Christians can read or hear the same things and interpret them very differently.

That is why I focus on the Creeds and Jesus. And that is what I base my views on the character of God. I also try to let Scripture speak for itself rather than trying to fit Scripture into any theological system.

And if I am incorrect on my view on election/predestination that does not mean I am damned to hell.

The Banned said:

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Point of information: Paul never says the word hell, but does mention damnation and eternal condemnation.

Also, the sum of Paul's teachings are not in the Bible. It's clear from his writings he did extensive oral teaching to the Gentiles. We can not say how much teaching on hell he did or didn't do.

Lastly, Jesus talks about hell a lot and we all know how that ranking system works.

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To be more precise, Jesus talks a lot about a valley on the south side of Jerusalem.

Jack Boyett said:

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The Banned said:

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Point of information: Paul never says the word hell, but does mention damnation and eternal condemnation.

Also, the sum of Paul's teachings are not in the Bible. It's clear from his writings he did extensive oral teaching to the Gentiles. We can not say how much teaching on hell he did or didn't do.

Lastly, Jesus talks about hell a lot and we all know how that ranking system works.

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To be more precise, Jesus talks a lot about a valley on the south side of Jerusalem.

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We've done this before. The same word for eternal when used in reference to heaven is the same word used for eternal in reference to hell. If we want to take Gehenna to only mean a specific valley (which I don't think works for a number of reasons) either believers aren't living in heaven forever, or unbelievers are going to live in a valley next to Jerusalem forever.

I hear ya, just trying to make it all make sense.

dermdoc said:

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Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that Hod desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curoois.

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And why won't the reformed posters respond to your question as to why would God set out to create men to be eternally tormented?

Jack Boyett said:

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The Banned said:

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Point of information: Paul never says the word hell, but does mention damnation and eternal condemnation.

Also, the sum of Paul's teachings are not in the Bible. It's clear from his writings he did extensive oral teaching to the Gentiles. We can not say how much teaching on hell he did or didn't do.

Lastly, Jesus talks about hell a lot and we all know how that ranking system works.

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To be more precise, Jesus talks a lot about a valley on the south side of Jerusalem.

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Yep. A lot of needless fear and anxiety has come from sweeping interpretations of that.

And I agree that the same word is used for the fate of the sheep and the goats. But it is more complex than that. Kolasis is translated as punishment when usually it is translated as a pruning or rehabilitative correction. Timoria is the Greek word for retributive punishment.

And the sheep and goats are spoken of as nations, not individuals.

But the whole concept of hell is another topic and I will not derail.

What do you think of both being true? The Bible doesn't teach one over the other. Took a theology class in HS (private school) in which the teacher at the time, now a professor at HBU, presented his idea of both. Sister went to Seminary at Truett and she had some professors have similar opinions. Seems like there are some big time Biblical scholars that believe that both are true.

rak1693 said:

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What do you think of both being true? The Bible doesn't teach one over the other. Took a theology class in HS (private school) in which the teacher at the time, now a professor at HBU, presented his idea of both. Sister went to Seminary at Truett and she had some professors have similar opinions. Seems like there are some big time Biblical scholars that believe that both are true.

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When you say both, you mean Calvinism and Arminianism?

And if so, I would say they both have Scriptural basis but we do not know the exact truth. And we won't until we are in the presence of the Lord.

Captain Pablo said:

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dermdoc said:

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Will any Reformed posters respond to my question about whether Scripture clearly states that Hod desires all men to be saved?
Thanks as I am truly curoois.

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And why won't the reformed posters respond to your question as to why would God set out to create men to be eternally tormented?

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Kind of an unfair way to state it. Sounds almost like gaslighting.

I have already stated that whether or not you believe in X, Y or Z type of agency for salvation, there will be men apart from God. Whether or not it is man choosing it or God, he is allowing some to perish.

Why is he doing so? It isn't for us to know.

Romans 9:14-23
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory...

Lord Answers Job
Job 38:1-7
Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Dress for action[a] like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me.
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements, surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job's Confession and Repentance
Job 42:1-3
Then Job answered the Lord and said:
"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?'
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.

Both as in predestination and free will.