RAB91 said:

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I wonder if she saw hope or an invasion?

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Macarthur said:

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RAB91 said:

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I wonder if she saw hope or an invasion?

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See, here's the problem with this. I can post a pic of the 21 people that lost their lives in Uvalde and say that the right is responsible due to their desire to allow the easy access to the types of weapons used in that massacre. Using cheap stunts like this does nothing to further the conversation.

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AGC said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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There's really only one religious side to the discussion. OT and NT and church teachings are all pretty unanimous about how we should treat immigrants, foreigners, and travelers. All the counterarguments are either practical or political, not religious. Territorial defense and integrity, whether home or country, isn't a Christian religious concept.

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Working for a living or selling yourself into slavery and leaving behind your religion and customs sure is, though. How much of this OT/NT lense are we going to look through?

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Macarthur said:

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RAB91 said:

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I wonder if she saw hope or an invasion?

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See, here's the problem with this. I can post a pic of the 21 people that lost their lives in Uvalde and say that the right is responsible due to their desire to allow the easy access to the types of weapons used in that massacre. Using cheap stunts like this does nothing to further the conversation.

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Macarthur said:

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AGC said:

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Macarthur said:

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RAB91 said:

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I wonder if she saw hope or an invasion?

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See, here's the problem with this. I can post a pic of the 21 people that lost their lives in Uvalde and say that the right is responsible due to their desire to allow the easy access to the types of weapons used in that massacre. Using cheap stunts like this does nothing to further the conversation.

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You could also ask if it's easier to police 330MM people or 1-2MM people too, but you don't. Border control is easier than policing our entire nation.

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Border control is not easy. It's been a decades long problem that neither party is truly interested in tackling. Which is why is a silly attempt to score political points to lay the death of this lady's feet at Biden.

Using those numbers to try and make one seem easier than the other really means nothing.

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Macarthur said:

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Your constitutional rights have limits. No one has unlimited rights.

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Macarthur said:

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Who is advocating for open boarders?

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/17/us-mexico-border-open-borders-myth

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Quote:

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See, here's the problem with this. I can post a pic of the 21 people that lost their lives in Uvalde and say that the right is responsible due to their desire to allow the easy access to the types of weapons used in that massacre. Using cheap stunts like this does nothing to further the conversation.

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Quote:

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Border control is not easy. It's been a decades long problem that neither party is truly interested in tackling. Which is why is a silly attempt to score political points to lay the death of this lady's feet at Biden.

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Macarthur said:

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Yes immigration and guns are diff issues legally. That's not the point.

The point is using that girls situation to lay at feet of Biden for cheap political points. This link will show you crimes committed by undocumented folks during Trumps term. Are you laying that blame 100% on trump?

https://www.fairus.org/examples-serious-crimes-illegal-aliens

On the evening of December 10, 2019, illegal alien Roberto Martinez brutally murdered 19-year-old Madisyn White in Oakland, California. After being involved in a minor accident with White, Martinez attempted to rob her before beating and shooting her multiple times. White's mother blamed her daughter's death on the sanctuary policies of Oakland Mayor Libby Schaaf and the state of California. (Fox News, January 9, 2020; Daily Mail, January 10, 2020)

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Macarthur said:

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Whatever. RAB can take a cheap shot at Biden w the young lady's death and that's fair game but me pointing out similar issues have been going on for decades and maybe the immigration issue is really complex w a long history and nuance is not being an adult and playing whatabouism. Got it.

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PabloSerna said:

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To bring this discussion back to religion….

"Here's the problem with your logic. We as U.S. citizens have the right (and the courts have agreed) to arm ourselves. The illegal alien doesn't have the right to be here."

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My issue with the understanding quoted above is that it is completely outside of the teachings of Jesus Christ and Holy Scripture in particular. Man is but a steward of God's creation. The idea that some people have a "right" to be here or there is not supported by scripture nor teachings of the Church.

That does not mean we have open borders, but rather that we recognize the grace that God has shed on our nation and we do our best to welcome the stranger in our land.

Instead of building walls and putting up miles of razor wire- we should be working to document as many migrants as safely and orderly as possible.

Like many here, I see the humanitarian crisis at the border and would hope that we could do better. Offering a better way, I believe, will reduce the number of people turning to the coyotes, cartels, and smugglers- who are preying on the majority of victims.

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Macarthur said:

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RAB91 said:

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Macarthur said:

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Yes immigration and guns are diff issues legally. That's not the point.

The point is using that girls situation to lay at feet of Biden for cheap political points. This link will show you crimes committed by undocumented folks during Trumps term. Are you laying that blame 100% on trump?

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Of course not. Trump was actively trying to close the border as much as possible. And if you remember, the Dems were fighting him tooth & nail (ex. border wall, family separation, etc). Now look at Biden. He reversed almost all of Trump's relatively successful border policies. He argued against deporting illegals. He supported illegals in sanctuary cities not being turned over to immigration officials after their arrests. So yes, I blame Biden 100 times more than I do Trump.

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There is some real context lacking here. You are making definitive statements that need a ton of nuance.

I'm at the airport and traveling but I want to revisit this. I think you are making some bold statements here that aren't completely accurate.

For example, Biden's deportations are higher than trump, even as a percentage.

https://www.cato.org/blog/new-data-show-migrants-were-more-likely-be-released-trump-biden

In absolute terms, the Biden DHS is removing 3.5 times as many people per month as the Trump DHS did. These figures are important for understanding how each administration has carried out border enforcement.

Also, it's true the family separation was unpopular and for good reason. I'm damn glad we did the right thing.

The border wall is a joke. A customs and borders protection report has said only 52 miles of NEW border wall was built. He never did anything close to what he bragged about and just go look at all the social media videos about just how effective the walls have been.

I think we can all agree that we have to get better and make major changes with our immigration policies but Trump and many on the right have exaggerated and demagogued the issue.

I have not seen anywhere that would support your statement that Biden "argued against deporting illegals". If you can find where he said that, I would like to see it. And the fact is, based on the numbers, Biden has no problem with deportions.

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Obvious Red Flag said:

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Of course, the absolute numbers of releases have been higher under President Biden, but that reflects much higher arrivals, not any meaningful change in policy.

The pandemicera authority called "Title 42" had enabled Border Patrol since March 2020 to quickly expel most crossers to Mexico. That ended in May 2023 - after March 31, 2023, which was when the new data for Biden's term cuts off - so the release percentage has probably increased since then. But, as noted above, the release percentage was also significantly higher during the Trump administration before Title 42. Of course, fluctuations will happen, but the point is clear: the Biden administration has not overturned immigration enforcement.

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