TheGreatEscape said:

---

You are claiming an ethnoreligion concept that you liberals made up and call yourself a Jew? You deny the first three of the Ten Commandments which establishes that God does exist for any Jew to call himself whatever the term you just used for yourself and morphed into as heresy.

I go ad hoc on you and you just ignore it.

Again…Abraham was a Gentile before he started what was to be called a jew or Hebrew. God made a covenant with Abraham before he was circumcised.

I realize that this is pointless because you are not in covenant with our father Abraham. Thus you are not even a Jew. And the DNA argument is falling to pieces in modern science.

Not only that but Enoch walked with God and this was way before Abraham.

---

Ethnoreligion is not a "liberal" term. It's a description of what Judaism is. It's not just a religion and it's not just an ethnicity or people. Both are informed by the other. And it is something you saw with regularity in the ancient world that has gone away with the emergence of the large proselytizing religions. So yes, non-practicing Jews are still Jews by Halacha so long as they aren't engaged in idolatry. Then they may be ethnically Jews, but are outside of the Jewish community and have to work to enter back in. Abraham (who likely didn't exist) was considered the first Jew. He accepted his covenant with God and began the Jewish people. But Abraham is not the only patriarch. Jewish prayers always mention Abraham along with Isaac and Jacob (Israel). Abraham started the people who then followed through his son and grandson.

Duh. I know this already. Judeo-Christianity is also an ethnoreligion. I've already given you examples of evangelism in the Hebrew Bible.

But how can a Jew be a Jew in Orthodox Judaism without committing the idolatry of unbelief in God?

How can a Jew be a Jew in Reform Judaism without committing the idolatry of unbelief in God?

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Duh. I know this already. Judeo-Christianity is also an ethnoreligion. I've already given you examples of evangelism in the Hebrew Bible.

But how can a Jew be a Jew in Orthodox Judaism without committing the idolatry of unbelief in God?

How can a Jew be a Jew in Reform Judaism without committing the idolatry of unbelief in God?

---

Christianity is not an ethnoreligion. It doesn't fit the definition at all. Not believing in God is not idolatry. It's just unbelief. A religious Jew would say a secular Jew is failing to uphold the mitzvot and would have to answer for that before God, but they're still part of the Jewish people.

They (Jews) are on equal footing with Gentiles. Accept Jesus as Messiah or remain separated from God.
They "were" (past tense) the 'chosen people'. Today, they are people...same as you and I.

We covenantal redemptive historical types would state something similarly. Jesus said that the wheat grows with the tares(weeds) which represents the household of God that we call the church and you call the temple. In the end, the wheat and tares will be separated in the afterlife.

This concept is also demonstrated by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 10. I've already posted that on this thread, I think.

whatthehey78 said:

---

They (Jews) are on equal footing with Gentiles. Accept Jesus as Messiah or remain separated from God.
They "were" (past tense) the 'chosen people'. Today, they are people...same as you and I.

---

I mean, that's not the message of the Tanakh and Jews don't believe in the New Testament, so cool, but what you're saying doesn't mean anything to a Jew.

Sapper Redux said:

---

whatthehey78 said:

---

They (Jews) are on equal footing with Gentiles. Accept Jesus as Messiah or remain separated from God.
They "were" (past tense) the 'chosen people'. Today, they are people...same as you and I.

---

I mean, that's not the message of the Tanakh and Jews don't believe in the New Testament, so cool, but what you're saying doesn't mean anything to a Jew.

---

And that is why they will remain lost and unsaved. Sad...but fact.

No. The era of mass murder against Christians, such as the Young Turks and Yagoda.

You would be interested in Slezkine. Read up.

whatthehey78 said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

whatthehey78 said:

---

They (Jews) are on equal footing with Gentiles. Accept Jesus as Messiah or remain separated from God.
They "were" (past tense) the 'chosen people'. Today, they are people...same as you and I.

---

I mean, that's not the message of the Tanakh and Jews don't believe in the New Testament, so cool, but what you're saying doesn't mean anything to a Jew.

---

And that is why they will remain lost and unsaved. Sad...but fact.

---

Cool

Redstone said:

---

No. The era of mass murder against Christians, such as the Young Turks and Yagoda.

You would be interested in Slezkine. Read up.

---

Your ignorance of Russian history is impressive for someone so sure they have the answers. Why do you ignore the pogroms and attacks against Jews in Russia?

Your refusal to acknowledge the heavily documented history of revolutionary movements during this period is amusing.

Wonder why the most prominent author of the 20th Century couldn't get Two Hundred Years Together published in English.

Maybe he ignored anti-Jewish actions? Oh no, he didn't.

Solzhenitsyn was just honest.

Deuteronomy 28:28 (ESV)

{28 "And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.}

Wouldn't that include the first three of the Ten Commandments to obtain covenantal blessing?

Because there are cures that follow as a result of not doing so.

Leviticus 26:1 (ESV)

"You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God."

And don't be so naive. Modern man doesn't carve images so much anymore. However, he does carve out images of himself in his heart making himself his own God, which is idolatry.

He worships money, fornication, drunkenness, hedonism, authoritarian government, etc.

I state government in particular because you claim that that's what we are trying to form. It's hypocritically ironic of you, a secularist, to suggest such after reading about the Bolsheviks and to know who supports what in US domestic and geopolitical politics.

The fact of the matter is all legislation (writing of laws) are moral laws.
So who is not imposing upon whom?

If a man were to rob an iPad, then don't we have laws holding that hold the thief accountable so might the thief might be justified by the state in receiving his sentence?? Are these type of laws imposing morality?


I know that's a lot to answer. So please think it through and not just quote some Rabbinic Tradition on the matter.
Let's go ad hoc.

And of course, I can tell that you are embarrassed of all of the miracles of the Hebrew Bible.

And the stuff about the wheat and tares and the 1 Corinthians 10 discussion of St. Paul doesn't mean anything to you because you are not of 2nd Temple Judaism. You are defending the heretical subset after God destroyed the temple as he said he would. Now you resort to the Talmud with no signs and no miracles and not good arguments connecting it to the Hebrew Bible. Judeo-Christianity does this in verse by verse and chapter by chapter.

Redstone said:

---

Wonder why the most prominent author of the 20th Century couldn't get Two Hundred Years Together published in English.

Maybe he ignored anti-Jewish actions? Oh no, he didn't.

Solzhenitsyn was just honest.

---

Solzhenitsyn was an antisemite.

https://reason.com/2004/05/01/traditional-prejudices-2/

Redstone said:

---

Your refusal to acknowledge the heavily documented history of revolutionary movements during this period is amusing.

---

Why do you keep ignoring the pogroms and the laws restricting Jews alone in Russia? Why are you unable to admit that Jews were targeted for violence and suffered greatly at the hands of Christian Russians?

Quote:

---

So please think it through and not just quote some Rabbinic Tradition on the matter.

---

If the discussion is about who is part of Bnei Yisrael, why would I ignore Jewish traditions on the issue? I don't care how you define idolatry, Judaism has its own definition of idolatry that emerged in a Jewish context over the millennia. Your definition is based on your faith and your cultural background. Judaism is not the same as Christianity, regardless of whether Christians claim the Hebrew Bible for themselves.

Sapper Redux said:

---

Quote:

---

So please think it through and not just quote some Rabbinic Tradition on the matter.

---

If the discussion is about who is part of Bnei Yisrael, why would I ignore Jewish traditions on the issue? I don't care how you define idolatry, Judaism has its own definition of idolatry that emerged in a Jewish context over the millennia. Your definition is based on your faith and your cultural background. Judaism is not the same as Christianity, regardless of whether Christians claim the Hebrew Bible for themselves.

---

Deuteronomy 6:5 (ESV) The Shema

" 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

Not loving the Lord your God with all of these aspects involved is the very definition of idolatry.

You are obviously not from the Orthodox Judaism tradition.

You are from the Reform Judaism, correct?

Wrong.

I've read Two Hundred Years Together. Also, The Thirteenth Tribe.

There is a commonality.

Not only is the weaponized and wholly incorrect term "antisemite" wrong and so pathetically deployed, a common habit of Young, as it was when utilized by Zionists and Marr of years past and smear operations such as the ADL today (LINGUISTIC, not "racial)

Koestler and Solzhenitsyn pack in dense detail after detail. I was surprised, pleasantly so.

They actually define terms and explain! With many facts, even if their conclusions are suspect (I'm an agnostic on Khazaria, and Brook's 2nd edition has some disagreements)

You could learn from them.

Redstone said:

---

Wrong.

I've read Two Hundred Years Together. Also, The Thirteenth Tribe.

There is a commonality.

Not only is the weaponized and wholly incorrect term "antisemite" wrong and so pathetically deployed, a common habit of Young, as it was when utilized by Zionists and Marr of years past and smear operations such as the ADL today (LINGUISTIC, not "racial)

Koestler and Solzhenitsyn pack in dense detail after detail. I was surprised, pleasantly so.

They actually define terms and explain! With many facts, even if their conclusions are suspect (I'm an agnostic on Khazaria, and Brook's 2nd edition has some disagreements)

You could learn from them.

---

You only ever cite books on Judaism that no one accepts as accurate or authoritative. The Thirteenth Tribe, in particular , has been completely discredited. It's telling.

And your complete inability to understand the history and meaning of antisemitism is astounding. It's a choice at this point, to try and negate anything that discusses the harm done to Jews.

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Quote:

---

So please think it through and not just quote some Rabbinic Tradition on the matter.

---

If the discussion is about who is part of Bnei Yisrael, why would I ignore Jewish traditions on the issue? I don't care how you define idolatry, Judaism has its own definition of idolatry that emerged in a Jewish context over the millennia. Your definition is based on your faith and your cultural background. Judaism is not the same as Christianity, regardless of whether Christians claim the Hebrew Bible for themselves.

---

Deuteronomy 6:5 (ESV) The Shema

" 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

Not loving the Lord your God with all of these aspects involved is the very definition of idolatry.

You are obviously not from the Orthodox Judaism tradition.

You are from the Reform Judaism, correct?

---

You're imposing your own definition of idolatry yet again. That's not the Jewish definition of idolatry.

Try the Vanishing American Jew by Alan Dershowitz, as the multiple major Israeli academics I've cited on this thread. Also, The Thirteenth Tribe is historical speculation, and he packs in MANY facts. You should read it.

As with Sand, whom you should also definitely read, they AGREE on the 70 AD division, the massive difficulty of defining the large, complex, umbrella term "Jew," AND agreement that the Jewish converts I detailed on this thread - including some very major figures - are not "Jewish" after conversion.

Interesting, isn't it? Reality tends to bring disparate views to a measure of agreement.

So, once again, your inane characterizations are false.

Also -

I'll ask again. What is "ethno" religion. DEFINE IT. Be specific. I and others continuously ask for actual and useful content and it just doesn't arrive.

Sapper Redux said:

---

Redstone said:

---

Your refusal to acknowledge the heavily documented history of revolutionary movements during this period is amusing.

---

Why do you keep ignoring the pogroms and the laws restricting Jews alone in Russia? Why are you unable to admit that Jews were targeted for violence and suffered greatly at the hands of Christian Russians?

---

Probably because they were atheistic communists who attacked first?

Sapper Redux said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Quote:

---

So please think it through and not just quote some Rabbinic Tradition on the matter.

---

If the discussion is about who is part of Bnei Yisrael, why would I ignore Jewish traditions on the issue? I don't care how you define idolatry, Judaism has its own definition of idolatry that emerged in a Jewish context over the millennia. Your definition is based on your faith and your cultural background. Judaism is not the same as Christianity, regardless of whether Christians claim the Hebrew Bible for themselves.

---

Deuteronomy 6:5 (ESV) The Shema

" 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

Not loving the Lord your God with all of these aspects involved is the very definition of idolatry.

You are obviously not from the Orthodox Judaism tradition.

You are from the Reform Judaism, correct?

---

You're imposing your own definition of idolatry yet again. That's not the Jewish definition of idolatry.

---

Ok. Quote from your highest authority, please?

Sapper Redux said:

---

Redstone said:

---

Wrong.

I've read Two Hundred Years Together. Also, The Thirteenth Tribe.

There is a commonality.

Not only is the weaponized and wholly incorrect term "antisemite" wrong and so pathetically deployed, a common habit of Young, as it was when utilized by Zionists and Marr of years past and smear operations such as the ADL today (LINGUISTIC, not "racial)

Koestler and Solzhenitsyn pack in dense detail after detail. I was surprised, pleasantly so.

They actually define terms and explain! With many facts, even if their conclusions are suspect (I'm an agnostic on Khazaria, and Brook's 2nd edition has some disagreements)

You could learn from them.

---

You only ever cite books on Judaism that no one accepts as accurate or authoritative. The Thirteenth Tribe, in particular , has been completely discredited. It's telling.

And your complete inability to understand the history and meaning of antisemitism is astounding. It's a choice at this point, to try and negate anything that discusses the harm done to Jews.

---

Yes. There was some anti-semitism in Europe.
But it was John Calvin who rejected Luther's attack on the Jews. Calvin learned Hebrew from Hebrews and was at least knowledgeable on the rabbinic tradition.

Calvin's beliefs spread to England and Scotland. It became the Puritan hope that the physical-Jews and the rest of the tribes of the world would come to know Christ.

Physical-Jews in Britain ever since the English Reformation, experienced far more liberty and acceptance than previously in the rest of Europe.

This Puritan hope spread to North America where Physical-Jews have experienced much less discrimination than previously. Yes…there was some growth in the Country Clubs that excluded physical-Jews from entering. But they at that time felt that physical-Jews already had an unfair advantage of uniting.

Not only that…but your untethered atheism contributes to the antisemitism that is going on right now with the from the river to the sea chants and protests. Physical-Jews afraid of leaving their own dormitories.

Christians please don't buy into this nonsensical "anti-Semitism" canard. It's absolutely ridiculous.

SEMITIC is a LINGUISTIC CATEGORY.
WILHELM MARR IN 1879 (hated Zionism, as an internationalist leftist)
And
ZIONISTS

Weaponized this as a slur term, to be "racial."

WRONG.

Don't participate or accept. Please.

Related, I challenge any poster to make the claim that "Jewish" is racial.

As I've detailed, there CAN be genetic markers. That's how evolution works - self-selecting groups in relative isolation over generations develop markers.

Question is BEST definition. I've detailed that on this thread, with my opinion - also the opinion of the Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) faith. THEOLOGY, never race.

This is "ethno" broadly - a shared characteristic. In this case, rejection of the Nazarene as the unifying and defining characteristic.

And rejection of the sign of Jonah mentioned by the our Nazarene. Jonah preached to the Gentiles and they actually repented.

Abraham is said to be the heir of the world by faith and not through the law.

1%

Dersch is not a scholar about American Judaism. He's a lawyer. Nothing about The Thirteenth Tribe stands up to scrutiny. It's not "historical facts," it's conjecture that is not based on an accurate reading of the historical record and genetic evidence blows its thesis to bits. The only people who still cling to the Khazar thesis are Neo-Nazis, Black Hebrew Israelites, Islamic radicals, and Christian identitarians / antisemites. Sand is likewise a fringe figure who is not taken seriously. As a review of "The Invention of the Jewish People," notes,

Quote:

---

The Invention of the Jewish People is not a work of scholarship at all, but rather the sort of passionate, articulate, but tendentious, selectively-researched work that in the western world increasingly dominates trade publishing aimed at a broad readership among the intelligentsia…. Sand's book represents a radically different phenomenon, not only because of its content, not only because it persistently seeks to be, and succeeds at being, outrageous, but because of its method. Historical scholarship can be refuted via counter-narratives based on publicly accessible source material. A polemic, imbued with passion and rhetorical flourish, can be shown to be shot through with falsehoods, yet the polemic's arguments stand, because from the very start style dominates substance. Exposure of its distortions can be dismissed as the work of fussy, pedantic, and territorial scholars, the same ones who for decades have trumpeted the Jews' sham peoplehood and therefore cannot be trusted.

---

This is all I've gotten from you on this thread. Not actual engagement with the history or the concepts, just polemics with a preselected "correct" narrative. Your sources are all at the fringes pushing the most biased narrative of Jews possible. Why is that? Why do you have such a problem with the Jewish people?

As for a definition of ethnoreligion, I've provided multiple explanations at several points in this thread. Here's another explainer, though I find it overly simplistic. https://www.crigenetics.com/blog/is-jewish-an-ethnicity?hs_amp=true

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Redstone said:

---

Wrong.

I've read Two Hundred Years Together. Also, The Thirteenth Tribe.

There is a commonality.

Not only is the weaponized and wholly incorrect term "antisemite" wrong and so pathetically deployed, a common habit of Young, as it was when utilized by Zionists and Marr of years past and smear operations such as the ADL today (LINGUISTIC, not "racial)

Koestler and Solzhenitsyn pack in dense detail after detail. I was surprised, pleasantly so.

They actually define terms and explain! With many facts, even if their conclusions are suspect (I'm an agnostic on Khazaria, and Brook's 2nd edition has some disagreements)

You could learn from them.

---

You only ever cite books on Judaism that no one accepts as accurate or authoritative. The Thirteenth Tribe, in particular , has been completely discredited. It's telling.

And your complete inability to understand the history and meaning of antisemitism is astounding. It's a choice at this point, to try and negate anything that discusses the harm done to Jews.

---

Yes. There was some anti-semitism in Europe.
But it was John Calvin who rejected Luther's attack on the Jews. Calvin learned Hebrew from Hebrews and was at least knowledgeable on the rabbinic tradition.

Calvin's beliefs spread to England and Scotland. It became the Puritan hope that the physical-Jews and the rest of the tribes of the world would come to know Christ.

Physical-Jews in Britain ever since the English Reformation, experienced far more liberty and acceptance than previously in the rest of Europe.

This Puritan hope spread to North America where Physical-Jews have experienced much less discrimination than previously. Yes…there was some growth in the Country Clubs that excluded physical-Jews from entering. But they at that time felt that physical-Jews already had an unfair advantage of uniting.

Not only that…but your untethered atheism contributes to the antisemitism that is going on right now with the from the river to the sea chants and protests. Physical-Jews afraid of leaving their own dormitories.

---

Holy ***** Yeah, just a touch of the pogroms, expulsions, and mass graves. No biggie. Calvin, who you promote as some kind of kinder soul, said about Jews, " Their rotten and unbending stiff-neckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone."

And the antisemitism faced by Jews in the US was not minimal. It ranged from exclusion (which was not the fault of the Jews) to violent (which again was not the fault of the Jews). Better than antisemitism in Europe was a low freaking bar to clear.

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Redstone said:

---

Your refusal to acknowledge the heavily documented history of revolutionary movements during this period is amusing.

---

Why do you keep ignoring the pogroms and the laws restricting Jews alone in Russia? Why are you unable to admit that Jews were targeted for violence and suffered greatly at the hands of Christian Russians?

---

Probably because they were atheistic communists who attacked first?

---

The Jews who were attacked and killed in the 1820s and 1880s were all atheistic communists? The children killed by mobs led by Orthodox priests were atheistic communists? **** you.

TheGreatEscape said:

---

And rejection of the sign of Jonah mentioned by the our Nazarene. Jonah preached to the Gentiles and they actually repented.

Abraham is said to be the heir of the world by faith and not through the law.

1%

---

Said by whom?

Sapper Redux said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

And rejection of the sign of Jonah mentioned by the our Nazarene. Jonah preached to the Gentiles and they actually repented.

Abraham is said to be the heir of the world by faith and not through the law.

1%

---

Said by whom?

---

Genesis 14:19

{And he blessed him and said,

"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;"}

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

TheGreatEscape said:

---

Sapper Redux said:

---

Quote:

---

So please think it through and not just quote some Rabbinic Tradition on the matter.

---

If the discussion is about who is part of Bnei Yisrael, why would I ignore Jewish traditions on the issue? I don't care how you define idolatry, Judaism has its own definition of idolatry that emerged in a Jewish context over the millennia. Your definition is based on your faith and your cultural background. Judaism is not the same as Christianity, regardless of whether Christians claim the Hebrew Bible for themselves.

---

Deuteronomy 6:5 (ESV) The Shema

" 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."

Not loving the Lord your God with all of these aspects involved is the very definition of idolatry.

You are obviously not from the Orthodox Judaism tradition.

You are from the Reform Judaism, correct?

---

You're imposing your own definition of idolatry yet again. That's not the Jewish definition of idolatry.

---

Ok. Quote from your highest authority, please?

---

The Mishnah is pretty explicit with its prohibitions that idol worship refers to the religious worship of idols.

https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Avodah_Zarah.2.4?lang=bi

Redstone said:

---

Related, I challenge any poster to make the claim that "Jewish" is racial.

As I've detailed, there CAN be genetic markers. That's how evolution works - self-selecting groups in relative isolation over generations develop markers.

Question is BEST definition. I've detailed that on this thread, with my opinion - also the opinion of the Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) faith. THEOLOGY, never race.

This is "ethno" broadly - a shared characteristic. In this case, rejection of the Nazarene as the unifying and defining characteristic.

---

There are genetic markers. A lot of them. There is a long history of community, culture, and religion that defines what it means to be part of a Jewish community. Rejection of Jesus has no more a part of that than rejection of Muhammad.