TheGreatEscape said:

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Sapper,

"to a study by Russian mathematician Nikolay Yemelyanov, Professor at St. Tichon's Orthodox University, during the seven years of Leninist rule from Russian Revolution in 1917 to Lenin's death in 1924 , almost 25,000 Orthodox priests were imprisoned and 16,000 were killed, for their Christian faith.

The same happened to Catholic priests. The secular English writer Martin Louis Amis has collected some significant sentences by dictator Vladimir Lenin: any religious idea, any idea of God is an indescribable abjection of the most dangerous kind, a plague of the most abominable. There are a million sins, disgusting facts, acts of violence, and physical contagions which are much less dangerous than the subtle and spiritual idea of God (quoted in M. Amis, Koba il terribile, Einaudi 2003).

After the Russian Revolution, Bolsheviks seized the power in the Sovietic Union (23-27 February 1917; Lenin took the power on October of the same year). The extermination of believers also continued after Lenin's death: Todd M. Johnson, Professor of Global Christianity and Director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, explained that the number of the Christian victims of atheist and Marxist regimes were 20 millions (15 millions from 1921 to 1950; 5 millions from 1950 to 1980). These numbers are confirmed by other studies, too. To them we should add the numbers of those who were tortured and imprisoned only for professing their faith in God and therefore being automatically considered enemies of the State."

https://www.uccronline.it/eng/2018/04/09/communism-killed-20-million-christians-a-real-atheist-inquisition/

So…the physical- Jews were definitely apart of the Bolsheviks. We know that.

Now why don't you pull out the number of physical-Jews that Christians have killed?

Then we can also evaluate the leadership's worldview.

Here is a pretty somewhat graciously given assessment of Jewish Bolsheviks. For it goes into their atheistic worldview.

https://socratic.org/questions/57a0f19a7c01494f5bbcead4

Thoughts have consequences.

---

Are you buying into the Nazi propaganda that the Bolsheviks were Jewish?

There were Jewish Bolsheviks, absolutely, but it was hardly a Jewish movement. About 6% of the upper ranks of the early Soviet era were Jews. Those people were largely purged by Stalin, who deeply hated Jews. And if you're going to talk about Orthodox priests, why aren't you talking about the antisemitism faced by Jews in the Soviet Union? Or the pogroms that the Russian Empire repeatedly encouraged right up to the October Revolution?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

dermdoc said:

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Fascinating information from all of y'all. I had no idea Norman Lear had converted to Christianity.

I personally have always wondered what Paul meant when he wrote all Israel will be saved in Romans. Some people believe in replacement theology and Israel means the church. I personally believe it means literally all Jewish people will come to Christ.

What do y'all think?

---

I'm not finding where Lear converted. The accounts of his death say that his family was with him singing show tunes. Nothing about Catholicism or Last Rites.

So the way I see it is that the Atheistic Jew has two options for survival (since their mind is hostile to God Romans 8:9). Aesthetic Jews can join the Marxist which leads to communism. Or they can join the Nazis and support their form of social conservatism…and this next go around, Judeo-Christians may be the ones forced to leave or be put in experimental camps or exterminated or both. God forbid.

And if they even dare to touch my Orthodox Jewish allies, then I'll go all Dietrich Bonhoeffer on whoever is in power. I may be martyred or imprisoned for my attempt but there will be someone to either do or finish the job by God's just war theory.

It is indisputable that a LARGE, DISPROPORTIONATE population of revolutionary movements in Eastern Europe / Russia, from the varied attempts to kill nobility and many other massacres - including Balkans and Caucuses, against Ukrainians and Assyrians and Armenians - in the 19th Century to 1917 were DISPROPORTIONATELY Jewish, meaning influence, money, personal actions.

All? NO. Essential and disproportionate, by comparison to population - yes, and the identity mattered.

AND that this fact was an important motivating factor in such actions, variations of Tikkun Olam.

Sources:
If you despise Two Hundred Years Together, try The Jewish Century by Yuri Slezkine.

Now, as a near pacifist, I will NEVER condone violence against Jews or anyone else.

But honesty requires acknowledgment of the above stated facts.

Redstone said:

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Why would I care that Institute for Historical Review and some black activists have praised him - alongside a lot of praise from leftist, Jewish, anti-Zionists?
Or that Ron Unz admires his scholarship? Or that the ADL predictably hates him?
Seriously who cares, including such name-calling as your post above?

ARE THOSE HUNDREDS OF PRIMARY DOCUMENTS ACCURATE, AS ISRAELI HISTORIANS SUCH AS SAND HAVE ASKED?

They are.

My summaries on this thread are fully accurate.
Check it out.

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I linked to an article discussing just a few of the issues with his work. It's also telling that you use people like Shlomo Sand as an authority when he's decidedly on the outside of any mainstream debate and his claims about Jewish origins have been decidedly discredited time and again.

Have you looked at the many hundreds of primary documents? None of this is secretive or especially controversial - before the70s anyway.

Brenner literally prints reams of them.

I'm grateful to him and many other honest and brave Jewish leftists, such as Norman Finkelstein.

Redstone said:

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Have you looked at the many hundreds of primary documents? None of this is secretive or especially controversial - before the70s anyway.

Brenner literally prints reams of them.

I'm grateful to him and many other honest and brave Jewish leftists, such as Norman Finkelstein.

---

Of course you are. Your idea of the good Jew is the one who espouses claims that have been repeatedly contested and who skirt the line (or cross over in Finklestein's case) of antisemitism.

TheGreatEscape said:

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So the way I see it is that the Atheistic Jew has two options for survival. They can join the Marxist which leads to communism. Or they can join the Nazis and support their form of social conservatism…and this next go around, Judeo-Christians may be the ones forced to leave or be put in experimental camps or exterminated or both. God forbid.

And if they even dare to put my Orthodox Jewish allies, then I'll go all Dietrich Bonhoeffer on whoever is in power. I may be martyred or imprisoned for my attempt but there will be someone to either do or finish the job by God's just war theory.

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**** off. Atheist Jews were murdered by the Nazis for being Jews and murdered by the Soviets for being Jews. Being Jewish and an atheist does not leave only two options of opposing totalitarianism.

"Israel" means the people of Logos, some of whom are given special disposition - such as the man of modern day Iraq / Iran …..
Abraham

All these know God by His connection to man, Jesus Christ. Including appearances before his holy Incarnation.

An excellent example of heated words and terminology to stop thought and "win."

Semitic is linguistic. I reject Marr, Nazis, and so many Zionists - defining the term as "racial."
WRONG

TheGreatEscape said:

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Amen and amen

I would just add that Sapper appears to me to be mostly defending Reform Judaism. Pretty sure that one cannot be an Orthodox Jew and be an atheist and still be adhering to the first major three of the Ten Commandments given to Moses.

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Judaism is an ethnoreligion. If you are a Jew, as long as you are not violating certain principles, you are still a Jew whether you are an atheist, Reform, Orthodox, Conservative, Haredi, etc….

Orthodox Jews recognize secular Jews as Jews. That's why you may see Chabadnics roaming around asking people if they're Jewish. They are trying to bring secular Jews back into religious practice. They will not do that for secular non-Jews, etc….

Redstone said:

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"Israel" means the people of Logos, some of whom are given special disposition - such as the man of modern day Iraq / Iran …..
Abraham

All these know God by His connection to man, Jesus Christ. Including appearances before his holy Incarnation.

---

Israel refers to the descendants of Jacob and those adopted into that nation.

Redstone said:

---

An excellent example of heated words and terminology to stop thought and "win."

Semitic is linguistic. I reject Marr, Nazis, and so many Zionists - defining the term as "racial."
WRONG

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It doesn't matter if you reject it or not. The term antisemitism means hatred of Jews. It's in the dictionary and everything.

Ethno means "shared characteristics."

I have given detail as to what I believe this means.

Specifically, Redux, your opinion?
What exactly is shared? Among the HUGE umbrella of atheist - Kabbalah - orthodox - much else?
ie the mostly atheist founders of nation-state Israel?

What do they have in common with orthodox?

And HOW does this more explanatory power than my submission to this vexing issue?

Of course I "ignore" it.
What do those purges say about my 100% ACCURATE characterization, from 1880 or so to Stalin the homicidal nationalist Empire builder that hated Zionism and all other nationalistic sentiments?

Seriously here - let's think it through.

Lear converted in DC, by a Dominican order, in their residence, with his Harvard grad daughter (who converted in college) at 100 years old.

Absurd statement about Judeo-Christians…

Not true. Back up your claim with evidence.

Moreover, your hatred isn't at me. It's a mad at daddy Hod syndrome that you are facing or why even type and respond or even have a conversation based upon your subjective truth hypothesis. You're obviously vehemently standing for objective truth now, right? That's something I'm praying that the two of you work out.

Moreover, the Hegelian subjective process of truth and evolution of all things predates Darwin.

Then you had to it you very heidegger (who was a Nazi) way of making your definition of physical-Judaism and the truth claims that you are advocating for remind me of the dasein definition that tries to evolve throughout Heidegger's work "Being and Time."

Well…we don't have much time in mortal life and "in him we live and move and have our being."

https://www.fromrome.info/2023/12/07/norman-lear-converts-to-the-catholic-faith-was-101/

Sapper Redux said:

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TheGreatEscape said:

---

Sapper,

"to a study by Russian mathematician Nikolay Yemelyanov, Professor at St. Tichon's Orthodox University, during the seven years of Leninist rule from Russian Revolution in 1917 to Lenin's death in 1924 , almost 25,000 Orthodox priests were imprisoned and 16,000 were killed, for their Christian faith.

The same happened to Catholic priests. The secular English writer Martin Louis Amis has collected some significant sentences by dictator Vladimir Lenin: any religious idea, any idea of God is an indescribable abjection of the most dangerous kind, a plague of the most abominable. There are a million sins, disgusting facts, acts of violence, and physical contagions which are much less dangerous than the subtle and spiritual idea of God (quoted in M. Amis, Koba il terribile, Einaudi 2003).

After the Russian Revolution, Bolsheviks seized the power in the Sovietic Union (23-27 February 1917; Lenin took the power on October of the same year). The extermination of believers also continued after Lenin's death: Todd M. Johnson, Professor of Global Christianity and Director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, explained that the number of the Christian victims of atheist and Marxist regimes were 20 millions (15 millions from 1921 to 1950; 5 millions from 1950 to 1980). These numbers are confirmed by other studies, too. To them we should add the numbers of those who were tortured and imprisoned only for professing their faith in God and therefore being automatically considered enemies of the State."

https://www.uccronline.it/eng/2018/04/09/communism-killed-20-million-christians-a-real-atheist-inquisition/

So…the physical- Jews were definitely apart of the Bolsheviks. We know that.

Now why don't you pull out the number of physical-Jews that Christians have killed?

Then we can also evaluate the leadership's worldview.

Here is a pretty somewhat graciously given assessment of Jewish Bolsheviks. For it goes into their atheistic worldview.

https://socratic.org/questions/57a0f19a7c01494f5bbcead4

Thoughts have consequences.

---

Are you buying into the Nazi propaganda that the Bolsheviks were Jewish?

There were Jewish Bolsheviks, absolutely, but it was hardly a Jewish movement. About 6% of the upper ranks of the early Soviet era were Jews. Those people were largely purged by Stalin, who deeply hated Jews. And if you're going to talk about Orthodox priests, why aren't you talking about the antisemitism faced by Jews in the Soviet Union? Or the pogroms that the Russian Empire repeatedly encouraged right up to the October Revolution?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

---

That's Wikipedia on an hotly contested subject.

Atheism is atheism and agnosticism is I don't know anything.

dermdoc said:

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Fascinating information from all of y'all. I had no idea Norman Lear had converted to Christianity.

I personally have always wondered what Paul meant when he wrote all Israel will be saved in Romans. Some people believe in replacement theology and Israel means the church. I personally believe it means literally all Jewish people will come to Christ.

What do y'all think?

---

Please. Please Read the OP.

The Lear conversion information comes from people who were there. No official statement.

I believe it, and understand if some don't. His daughter was more public.

Sapper Redux said:

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Redstone said:

---

Have you looked at the many hundreds of primary documents? None of this is secretive or especially controversial - before the70s anyway.

Brenner literally prints reams of them.

I'm grateful to him and many other honest and brave Jewish leftists, such as Norman Finkelstein.

---

Of course you are. Your idea of the good Jew is the one who espouses claims that have been repeatedly contested and who skirt the line (or cross over in Finklestein's case) of antisemitism.

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Wait. I thought we couldn't use the word anti-semitism because Reform Judaism isn't Semitic?

TheGreatEscape said:

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Sapper Redux said:

---

Redstone said:

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Have you looked at the many hundreds of primary documents? None of this is secretive or especially controversial - before the70s anyway.

Brenner literally prints reams of them.

I'm grateful to him and many other honest and brave Jewish leftists, such as Norman Finkelstein.

---

Of course you are. Your idea of the good Jew is the one who espouses claims that have been repeatedly contested and who skirt the line (or cross over in Finklestein's case) of antisemitism.

---

Wait. I thought we couldn't use the word anti-semitism because Reform Judaism isn't Semitic?

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What?

You read me.

Redstone said:

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Ethno means "shared characteristics."

I have given detail as to what I believe this means.

Specifically, Redux, your opinion?
What exactly is shared? Among the HUGE umbrella of atheist - Kabbalah - orthodox - much else?
ie the mostly atheist founders of nation-state Israel?

What do they have in common with orthodox?

And HOW does this more explanatory power than my submission to this vexing issue?

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Jewish people share a history and a culture and a religious tradition and share genetics. They also share a history of diaspora and persecution. None of this has jack **** to do with Jesus.

TheGreatEscape said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fascinating information from all of y'all. I had no idea Norman Lear had converted to Christianity.

I personally have always wondered what Paul meant when he wrote all Israel will be saved in Romans. Some people believe in replacement theology and Israel means the church. I personally believe it means literally all Jewish people will come to Christ.

What do y'all think?

---

Please. Please Read the OP.

---

I did. Too complex for my simple mind.

I believe Paul is saying that through the mercy of God, all Israel (which to me are all Jewish people descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) will be saved.

TheGreatEscape said:

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You read me.

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What does it mean that Reform Judaism is "not Semitic"?

What a major disservice Marr, Zionists, and ADL ect. do us each day.

So much heat, so little light, a weaponized term to shut down thought. What's worse than being "racist."

My Semitic grandmother, Christian of Aleppo, would be sad also.

LINGUISTIC. As it was before Marr deliberately used the term as a "racialized" term against Jews.

Bring back the reality.

Quote:

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which to me are all Jewish people descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

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No "Jewish" marker of biology (which CAN exist, that's how evolution of self-selecting groups works) - NONE extends more than about 1,000 years back.

Source:
David Reich of Harvard
Much to the dismay of his parents, according to him

Then let's interact with the text, shall we?

What part of this do you not understand that Israel is both Jewish and Gentile believers and always has been?

Galatians 6:15-16 (ESV)

{15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.}

Here St. Paul connects what a Jew is by connecting it to what Israel actually is. And that is exactly the logical progression that I am following from the Hebrew Rabbinic tradition.

"The church is Israel, you may think or say? That's replacement theology." Hahah. Nope. It's fulfilled biblical covenant theology. Welcome to the team and we are glad to answer your questions.

So Israel is made up of both Jew and Gentile believers established by both the Old Testament (the Hebrew Bible) and the New Testament.

Check this out.

Romans 9:6-7 (ESV)

Romans 9:6-7

{6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring,}

Literally stated in the Greek, "Not all of Israel is Israel."

Not Abraham's physical offspring..

In verse 7, St. Paul goes on to use the connecting the sentence which is translated as "and", in order to qualify what Israel actually is.

"… and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring,"

In other words, Israel is made up of both the physical-Jew and Gentile believers in Jesus the Messiah.

The Apostle Paul is building his case from Galatians and in Romans 9:6-7 that the Israel of God and not of the flesh is Israel in Romans chapter 11.

So we finally now can get to the logical flow of St. Paul's argument of non-contradiction.

Romans 11:25-27 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

To whom is the Romans letter addressed? Christians in Rome...both of Jewish and Gentile ancestry.

Who is Israel? Israel is made up of both physical-Jews and Gentiles and always has been.

The physical-Jews are a branch that has been cut off (Romans 11). But in the end both physical-Jews and Gentiles will come to faith as all the families of the earth shall be blessed. That is when all of Israel will be saved. That is, all of physical-Israel and the Gentile-Jew (the Gentile Israel) will reign in the end of this life and in the life to come.

Redstone said:

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What a major disservice Marr, Zionists, and ADL ect. do us each day.

So much heat, so little light, a weaponized term to shut down thought. What's worse than being "racist."

My Semitic grandmother, Christian of Aleppo, would be sad also.

LINGUISTIC. As it was before Marr deliberately used the term as a "racialized" term against Jews.

Bring back the reality.

---

Are you denying the history and present reality of Jew hatred? We can use the term Juden Hass here if it makes you feel better.

Redstone said:

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Quote:

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which to me are all Jewish people descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

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No "Jewish" marker of biology (which CAN exist, that's how evolution of self-selecting groups works) - NONE extends more than about 1,000 years back.

Source:
David Reich of Harvard
Much to the dismay of his parents, according to him

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So I am confused. Surely Jewish ancestry can be traced back longer than 1000 years?

It cannot.

Redstone said:

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Quote:

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which to me are all Jewish people descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

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No "Jewish" marker of biology (which CAN exist, that's how evolution of self-selecting groups works) - NONE extends more than about 1,000 years back.

Source:
David Reich of Harvard
Much to the dismay of his parents, according to him

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Yeah, this is simply not true. There are limits in tracing back certain specific markers. Plenty of research has found that Jews across the diaspora are related and go back to ancestral home in the Levant.